Licensed Themes VS Original Themes

[JJ Tong (zfogshooterz)]

8 hours ago, Aanchir said:

This perspective is a little surprising to me, considering how often I see people complaining about the possibility that big and highly varied themes like City, Friends, and Ninjago are getting in the way of smaller and shorter-lived themes.

Like, right now, as I brought up in a Racers related thread in the Special Themes subforum, most of the types of non-licensed sets that used to show up in the Racers theme now show up in other themes that you might consider "umbrella themes": realistic minifig-scale vehicles tend to show up in City, more futuristic/fantasy-influenced street vehicles tend to show up in Ninjago, brick-built vehicles at more varied scales tend to show up in Creator, and Technic-based vehicles tend to show up in Technic. I suspect all these sets are a lot more successful in these themes with other sets like them than they were in the Racers theme, considering its lack of a consistent scale or even a consistent setting/story framework. After all, most of these themes have had a stronger record as best-sellers than Racers ever was.

That's also what I have observed when I was lurking at the Technic 2019's Porche 911 discussion. It seems to be more prominent (the way I see it) in Technic with Bash and Whack which is basically a small return of crashers and stuff like the (2019) Porche 911 and Stingray Corvette, 2016's Drag Racer or even the RC racers for example. And in City too with the race vehicles.

Although I think that the Racers umbrella theme might be cool, I'm actually pretty fine with how it is now. *I just wish there could be mini-fig scale theme of the illegal racing tiny turbos, of course with the improved techniques of Speed Champions..cough....cough....*

Edited January 24, 2019 by JJ Tong (zfogshooterz)

[Peppermint_M]

50 minutes ago, Lego David said:

These old Racers sets look a lot cooler than any supposed Race car we got recently

Yeah, sure. From someone who was desiring LEGO sets during the "era" of Racers, the current crop of sets are way better. I had these sets and stripped the parts to build my own racing cars. About the only good thing about the old racers sets were the printed parts. Even the minifigure face designs were terrible. 

[JJ Tong (zfogshooterz)]

3 hours ago, Lego David said:

I don't care. I just want Racers in its authentic form back. These old Racers sets look a lot cooler than any supposed Race car we got recently. Those sets look so cool that I fell in love with them at first sight and set The  goal to collect as many from them as possible. 

I don't care about Speed Champions or Techinc very much. I just want them all to be together in one huge theme. Also, the reason so few people own them on Brickset is because the whole theme itself is very underrated.

Don't you think that's being a tad unrealistic?

Well, those set's might looks good back then, but if you think about how sets have changed over the years in terms of, building techniques and aesthetics, the sets from racers do seems obsolete comparatively. These old themes needs to evolve and change. Which is why we have Speed Champions, stuffs in Technic and in City for example.

I love racers, they're cool for its time but still, there's a reason it got gutted. To think of it more, why would LEGO want to reverse their course if the racers aspect is already so integrated with the other themes. And personally, I would prefer having more actual Original themes than effort, time and resource spent for a Racers banner.

Edited January 24, 2019 by JJ Tong (zfogshooterz)

[Lego David]

1 hour ago, Peppermint_M said:

Yeah, sure. From someone who was desiring LEGO sets during the "era" of Racers, the current crop of sets are way better. I had these sets and stripped the parts to build my own racing cars. About the only good thing about the old racers sets were the printed parts. Even the minifigure face designs were terrible.

Yeah sure. I believe you

You just showed the early sets as your example. Just take a look trough the theme and you will find out that those sets were superior to anything we get nowdays. Also, I would any day buy this... for 7$

Rather than ugh... this... for 10$

Edited January 24, 2019 by Lego David

[TeriXeri]

 vs   (2019)

 vs  (2017)

 vs  (2019)(2013)(2018)

 vs  (2018)

 

Really the only main thing to me that Racers had that current themes don't, are the special road elements or race tracks.

And after all, it's all LEGO so can be modified to make whatever looked like some older sets. Theres a ton of Formula 1 alternate builds on Rebrickable.

The small brick pullback motors aren't made now, but still are only a few cents on bricklink. ( Pullback Motor 6 x 2 x 1 2/3 )

Edited January 24, 2019 by TeriXeri

[Lyichir]

5 minutes ago, TeriXeri said:

 

Really the only main thing to me that Racers had that current themes don't, are the special road elements or race tracks.

 

 

Well, also RC cars designed for outdoor play, but those were always sort of an oddity. They didn’t really fit that well into the “system”, relying on bulky prefab body pieces and being extremely susceptible to wear despite being designed for it.

[TeriXeri]

29 minutes ago, Lyichir said:

Well, also RC cars designed for outdoor play, but those were always sort of an oddity. They didn’t really fit that well into the “system”, relying on bulky prefab body pieces and being extremely susceptible to wear despite being designed for it.

I had the 1998 brick built RC car, and the pieces fell off on the slightest bump, so I can understand a reason for the switch to mainly technic RC cars.

 

 

2009 Racers theme did include 2 brick-built RC cars. 

  and  

I can imagine the yellow one (8183: Track Turbo RC) was pretty awesome for it's time, much smaller then the 1998/2001 version, so I'll give it it's credits to the Racing theme 

Most of the other Racers RC cars have been Technic, while brick version Racers RC cars used this Ir/Rx Vehiclebase 8X22  

2018 had the app-controlled batmobile, the first system-RC car in a long time.

The RC Batmobile basicly builds it's own 8 x 19 base around the Powered Up hub and 2 motors. Not that much size difference, but it uses a different steering method and is taller when you put the Hub on it.

I do think a Powered Up version of a Vehiclebase could be cool, just probably too specialized for just 1 released set.

The Batmobile set might have been a test to see how it'll sell, despite it's high price.

 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2019 by TeriXeri

[Lego David]

40 minutes ago, TeriXeri said:

 vs   (2019)

 vs  (2017)

 vs  (2019)(2013)(2018)

 vs  (2018)

 

Really the only main thing to me that Racers had that current themes don't, are the special road elements or race tracks.

And after all, it's all LEGO so can be modified to make whatever looked like some older sets. Theres a ton of Formula 1 alternate builds on Rebrickable.

The small brick pullback motors aren't made now, but still are only a few cents on bricklink. ( Pullback Motor 6 x 2 x 1 2/3 )

The Racers ones looked a lot cooler than the new sets. Out of all those comparsions, I feel like the Racers ones are the best.

 

27 minutes ago, Lyichir said:

Well, also RC cars designed for outdoor play, but those were always sort of an oddity. They didn’t really fit that well into the “system”, relying on bulky prefab body pieces and being extremely susceptible to wear despite being designed for it.

I own 8676 Sunset Cruiser, and while those RCs looked very Non-LEGO like, their parts are still compatible with Techinc parts. So, if you are creative enough, you could make some cool MOCs from them. Those RCs were great, I want to get at least most of them. One thing I defenatly like about them is how fast and well they worked expecially outdoor.

About the App-controlled Batmobile, I am really not a fan of it. It just doesn't look good, compared with the Racers RCs which looked very cool even on Display.  If we get RC cars, they should work but look good at the same time.

[TeriXeri]

Just now, Lego David said:

About the App-controlled Batmobile, I am really not a fan of it. It just doesn't look good, compared with the Racers RCs which looked very cool even on Display.  If we get RC cars, they should work but look good at the same time.

I agree on that, that's why I posted a comparison on the motor system, and I do think out of those 3 sets, the yellow 2009 brick-built RC car looks really good, but it does use a specialized vehiclebase as explained.

Again, I have no nostalgia in to any of those sets, so my viewpoint is purely neutral.

Edited January 24, 2019 by TeriXeri

[Lego David]

Just now, TeriXeri said:

I agree on that, that's why I posted a comparison on the motor system, and I do think out of those 3 sets, the yellow 2009 brick-built RC car looks really good, but it does use a specialized vehiclebase as explained.

Those RCs should look good for dispaly when you don't play with them. The App-controlled Batmobile doesn't really look like a Batmobile to be honest... 

We really need more RCs like Track Trubo RC, which look cool and work good at the same time.

[TeriXeri]

4 minutes ago, Lego David said:

We really need more RCs like Track Trubo RC, which look cool and work good at the same time.

I certainly would be interested in a re-release similar to that, modernized for the powered up system and app/bluetooth controlled but it'd require a remake of the vehiclebase.

I don't have any modern technic at all so brick built RC car interest me much more.

Main reason I mentioned the Batmobile was because it's been the first brick-built RC car since 9 years.

€110 is also way too expensive for what you get if you just want a LEGO RC car.

Edited January 24, 2019 by TeriXeri

[Lego David]

2 minutes ago, TeriXeri said:

€110 is also way too expensive for what you get if you just want a LEGO RC car

That is probably why they appear to not sell very well. I know they use Power Functions/Electric Parts but I don't think they are really worth so much. Maybe like 70$ would be more accesable. Also Considering that Track Trubo was only 40$ upon release... It's defenatly a better set.

Edited January 24, 2019 by Lego David

[MAB]

4 hours ago, Lego David said:

I don't care about Speed Champions or Techinc very much. I just want them all to be together in one huge theme. Also, the reason so few people own them on Brickset is because the whole theme itself is very underrated.

2

If you want things in one huge theme, just call them CARS. And there you have your own theme that encompasses all LEGO cars. Theming a collection is sometimes arbitrary anyway. For example, your rare polybag in the other thread, I don't think this is actually part of the Racers theme. It doesn't have the Racers logo on it like the other Racers sets. It is the same build as a Racers set but rebadged as a licensed BMW set rather than a Racers set, so it gets lumped together with them.

[Peppermint_M]

 

I'm going to go with: Those racers cars have poor designs compared to the new sets, the RC and Pullback sets were mostly a big prefab chunk so that they could be motorised, with minimal building involved. In person, they looked really bad compared to actual RC cars and the Technic cars designed for display.

The best part of racers was the Stunt Rally PC game and the Drome Racers 4D Movie.

But does this make it better?

As suggested:

3 hours ago, MAB said:

If you want things in one huge theme, just call them CARS

[Lego David]

1 hour ago, Peppermint_M said:

 

I'm going to go with: Those racers cars have poor designs compared to the new sets, the RC and Pullback sets were mostly a big prefab chunk so that they could be motorised, with minimal building involved. In person, they looked really bad compared to actual RC cars and the Technic cars designed for display

Have some respect please. Nothing else to say. 

2 hours ago, Peppermint_M said:

 

I'm going to go with: Those racers cars have poor designs compared to the new sets, the RC and Pullback sets were mostly a big prefab chunk so that they could be motorised, with minimal building involved. In person, they looked really bad compared to actual RC cars and the Technic cars designed for display.

The best part of racers was the Stunt Rally PC game and the Drome Racers 4D Movie.

But does this make it better?

As suggested:

 

[Peppermint_M]

If Racers still existed as a theme, this would be exactly what we would be having under the brand.

Speed Champions would be a subheading for the sets, but the product line would include the Technic sets under a Racers branding. However, it would be unlikely for there to be more racing cars in Creator or City lines as Racers: Speed Champions would take up that target.

After All, Racers had licenses in the form of Ferrari and Lamborghini even in the "heyday".

[Agent Kallus]

The only thing racers had that we don't have now is the tiny turbos.

As for the general topic, though in theory I prefer original themes as it allows lego to be more creative, it really depends on the specifics.

Like I'd prefer a licensed Steven Universe or Doctor Who theme over an unlicensed adventures theme or a new simplistic castle theme, but those are licenses I like as much as I like lego so Its not entirely because of thelego that I'd want them to be lego themes.

Whereas I'd prefer an original fantasy era 2 or adventurers over a star trek or a Indiana Jones theme despite my enjoying both star trek and Indiana Jones.

And obviously while all the themes I've suggested are ones I'd like an orginal theme I don't like (e.g chima) loses to to a licensed theme I would like (e.g. The Last Airbender) and vice versa.

In an ideal world we'd have Doctor Who and Fantasy era 2 and I'd be able to afford it all, but.... yeah.

On a seperate but related note I'd rather waves be smaller like the 2k18 Harry Potter wave rather than the huge waves stuff like star wars and ninjago(my favourite of the current themes) seem to get. Also some set retire too fast.

[Digger of Bricks]

Kinda as with LEGO Space, I'm always perplexed by so many fans' response to anyone proposing the revival of an older playtheme, as many jump to the presumption that the suggestion of such means bringing that line back as it was verbatim. When I started that topic on reviving Racers in the Special Themes subforum, it was exclusively under the personal lamentation of mine that Racers was more of a multifaceted umbrella theme, whereas Speed Champions had set itself up under only one particular niche. Yes, much of Racers' offerings over the years were definitely inferior to the quality and design of most of TLG's more recent offerings; but, I do solely admire Racers for its City-like subtheme structure rather than its actual offerings.

Again, going back to @Aanchir, he does makes a solid case for Racers' nonexistence currently, as many of its subthemes make themselves more at home under other preexisting themes; but still, I guess I'd kinda wish to see Speed Champions become a part of something a little bigger, as it really can't fit under any other preexisting theme. 

On 1/23/2019 at 6:56 PM, Aanchir said:

Like, right now, as I brought up in a Racers related thread in the Special Themes subforum, most of the types of non-licensed sets that used to show up in the Racers theme now show up in other themes that you might consider "umbrella themes": realistic minifig-scale vehicles tend to show up in City, more futuristic/fantasy-influenced street vehicles tend to show up in Ninjago, brick-built vehicles at more varied scales tend to show up in Creator, and Technic-based vehicles tend to show up in Technic.

Heh, alright, I'm being a bit nitpicky here; but, I personally wouldn't consider Ninjago an umbrella theme. 

[MAB]

7 hours ago, Digger of Bricks said:

Heh, alright, I'm being a bit nitpicky here; but, I personally wouldn't consider Ninjago an umbrella theme. 

 

Think about the subjects of even just the current waves available on lego.com:

Temple / monastery - architecture / historical

Various dragons - fantasy

Driller and Dieselnaut - techno fantasy, callbacks to power miners

Jay's storm fighter - high tech aircraft / close to space

Destiny's Wing - another plane

Blade cycle - motorbikes in tron / akira style

Various Mechs - mechs obviously

Spinjitsu

Ninjago City and Docks - modular style architecture

Destiny's Bounty - ships

 

 

They sure do cover a very wide subject area in Ninjago.

 

[Lego David]

11 hours ago, Agent Kallus said:

oses to to a licensed theme I would like (e.g. The Last Airbender) and vice versa.

So, you would like Avatar the Last Airbender? Here you go:

 

And Yes, this is real. There was a LEGO Avatar theme in 2006, but it only had two sets. 

[Peppermint_M]

That was only ever available in the US. So hard to come by in the rest of the world.

[Agent Kallus]

2 hours ago, Lego David said:

So, you would like Avatar the Last Airbender? Here you go:

 And Yes, this is real. There was a LEGO Avatar theme in 2006, but it only had two sets. 

My post wasn't about me wanting Lego Avatar, it was about how whether or not a licensed theme is based on something you like will affect what you think of the licensed theme, and the same applies to original themes, so the question this topic poses is a little too vague for a good discussion, with best answer for most people being it depends. Avatar was just an example of a theme that I'd personally like, most of my examples were themes that have existed at one time or another.

Take for example a castle fan, would they prefer original or  licensed themes well, they'd prefer fantasy era 2 over a theme based on a marvel comics license but they'd prefer a licensed lord of the rings or elder scrolls theme to an original theme such as aquazone or friends in space. So I suppose their answer would be it depends.

Or take a space fan, would they prefer original or licensed themes? They'd prefer Space police 4 over a theme based on a pirates of the Caribbean license but they'd prefer a licensed star trek theme to an original theme such as Knights Kingdom or Elves. So I suppose their answer would be it depends.

Both of those examples are massive generalisations, and most AFOLs are fans of multiples themes as well as things outside of Lego.

And in both cases the castle or the space fan would probably prefer their original themes (space or castle respectively) to just any licensed theme but if were taking licensed theme to mean just any licensed theme then we must take original theme to mean just any original theme. In which case the best answer I can give woulds be that it depends.

Original themes, especially those not just based on archetypal ideas have to do a lot more heavy lifting to attract customers because all the interest needs to come from the Lego it self rather than whatever license it's based upon. I prefer the idea of originals themes but in practice I probably buy sets from more licensed themes than original themes, and that's partly because Lego is not my only passion but also because not ever idea lego has for an original theme interests me.

3 hours ago, Peppermint_M said:

That was only ever available in the US. So hard to come by in the rest of the world.

Also this^

I knew those sets existed but existing and being accessible are very different things.

[Digger of Bricks]

5 hours ago, MAB said:

They sure do cover a very wide subject area in Ninjago.

By "umbrella" themes, I'm referring to lines that have multiple concurrent subthemes and/or coverage of multiple subject matters independent of a shared storyline, setting, or set of characters. City, Friends*, Technic, Creator, traditional Collectable Minifigures, and Juniors are good examples of such current/recent themes, while the same can be said for Disney, BrickHeadz, and DC/Marvel SuperHeroes in the licensed department.

* Friends may have set characters and a particular setting, but its City-like subtheme structure warrants its "umbrella" status at least for me.

[MAB]

Yes, but then I guess there are different ways of defining what an umbrella theme is; from Aanchir's post, I was assuming they called Ninjago an umbrella theme as it contained a very wide range of sets / styles - from classical / historical architecture, through fantasy, futuristic vehicles, etc. In fact, pretty much like Friends, where a group of named girls have a wide range of types of sets.

 

[Digger of Bricks]

35 minutes ago, MAB said:

Yes, but then I guess there are different ways of defining what an umbrella theme is

Of course, as it's not really a well-established term in AFOL vernacular; so, as of now, it's up to each's own definition.