Blacktron Mafia: Day 2, Space Oddity

[mostlytechnic]

Ah, but that defense is as circumstantial as my suspicion. So... carry on, then.

Glad to have your approval.

[Hinckley]

Glad to have your approval.

Aye, it's no approval, mate.

[Dragonfire]

This is a remnant of April Fool's Day.

Oh

Overall, after calculating the statistics and outcomes, I'm leaning truth on Clem. I just don't see the upside being worth it for the scum to make such a bold claim. However, I'm not confident in that enough (because I don't trust the scum to work with the same level of logic as I, since they're inferior beings [like the rest of you]) to make any claim to her (vanilla or PR, doesn't matter here).

Agreed ^^

So here's what Claw calls a vote analysis.

The thing is, Minga stated her intention to make a vote analysis in the post before Claw's "analysis". Minga's actual analysis then followed. Claw's post almost seemed as if he was trying to "outdo" Minga and post an "analysis" quicker than her in order to appear active and townie.

quite possibly the only really constructive thing I've seen today.

Thanks

They could be concerned, at first I thought of Minga being scum but later on I changed my mind about her, I don't think the scum would make it entirely obvious. Maybe they tried to frame her...? I still have a gut feeling she's scum though.

Okay, so you thought Minga was scum but you changed your mind but you still gut feel that Minga is scum? That makes soooo much sense...

If he's confirmed scum then don't claim to him

Quote of the game here

4 of 2 would like to do some analysis...

Minga highly disapproves of plagiarism. Referring to oneself in the third person is trademarked by Minga Gorgon, Supreme President of the Noble Race of Fa'Anta Cera!

If we're talking about players flying under the radar then Paul, certainly comes into this, he's probably been less active than Major Dave, if he does get round to reading this it will be interesting to see what he has to say.

Not only have you failed to respond to Minga's accusation against you, you're continuing to be hypocritical (note the bolded text). Deflecting attention much??

Let's be equal opportunity about those flying under the radar. Those posting low on both days (so far) are:

Bock Pathos

Diamond Dodd

Hannah Ford

Laura Starbucks

Nathan Mallard

Paul Harkonnen

Rip Sewer

Vazquez Rodriguez

You omitted Major Dave, I think.

Time for Minga's vote. While several people have ended up on Minga's scum-list for various reasons, Minga's strongest suspicion at the moment goes to...

Vote: Laura Starbucks (Tariq j) Read the previous couple of pages to see why. As with yesterday, Minga's vote is subject to change

[Hinckley]

You omitted Major Dave, I think.

Yes, I think because Harriet had already thoroughly analyzed his low activity.

To totally metagame, Major Dave always plays this way and is always one to be careful of.

[mostlytechnic]

Looks like Major Dave is catching up as we speak... so I suggest he speaks before more votes get thrown at him...

[Dragonfire]

To totally metagame, Major Dave always plays this way and is always one to be careful of.

To be honest, he wasn't this inactive in Unrest, the only game I've ever played with him in.

Minga is extremely sorry for the slip in the previous sentence. What was Minga thinking? Stupid humans and their desire to refer to themselves as I..

[fhomess]

I'm going to go ahead and Vote: 4 of 2 (mostlytechnic)

Why? It's in the math, man! Check out this bender:

4 of 2 would like to do some analysis of Clementine's focus on Seamus potentially being the godfather, since it's been such a big part of the discussion for 2 days....

First, all roles are completely random. That means initially, there was a 5.2632% chance that Seamus was the godfather. The same odds as anyone else. Although since presumably Clem would know that she isn't the godfather (again, thinking through things from her viewpoint and assuming that she's town) then the odds of Seamus being godfather was slightly higher at 5.5556%.

Coming into day 2, with 3 townies gone, the odds shifted to 6.6667%. Still low. So from a strictly odds standpoint. Clem's concern about Seamus being the godfather seems obsessive and illogical.

What's the point of running the numbers here? No one ever suggested Tangerine was acting logically in the suspicion of Seamus as godfather. Heck, she started the day off by reacting to his jokes as if she never had her sarcasm detector implanted. The numbers here are just a way of looking helpful but they're meaningless. 4 of 2 even acknowledge that she doesn't try to pass if off as a logical concern.

However, if we go back to her very early posts:

... she wasn't claiming it was a logical concern, she was looking (if I'm understanding her right) at a worst-case scenario and then (in my opinion) being overly worried about it. Yes, Seamus as godfather would be a very tough scum team to beat. However, as I stated above, that's a low chance. Clem, if you have any basis to actually SUSPECT Seamus, please bring it out to us for analysis. I think you're just worried in your gut as you humans do (side note: I'm SO glad that my gut was removed as part of my cyborgization!) and it's time to move on. No one is saying you have to trust Seamus. But constantly acting AS IF HE IS the godfather with no basis is preventing more logical thought.

And it seems that Clem's main concern was newbies thinking Seamus was clear from an investigator (how would they know that? Except for the investigator themselves, no one knows what the investigator learned) and then claiming to him. I think we have made it pretty clear that claiming this early to anyone is foolish. Hopefully the newbies have heard that message and no one is doing night 1 claims to Seamus... or anyone else! Wait till you have solid reason to trust someone, or a desperate situation (like you're about to be lynched... if you're about to be lynched, CLAIM IN PUBLIC so we don't repeat the mistakes of Ragnarok and lose the vig in the first lynch without knowing it!), before claiming.

There's a lot of commentary but no conclusions other than don't claim until you truse someone. No comment on how Tangerine's actions affect his leaning on Tangerine.

Humans need to learn to read. I never said to claim. In fact, I said specifically NOT to claim to Clem. Nor did I say to lie. What I said about possibly claiming was that one possible way to use Clem (assuming for the moment that she's town) would be for people to claim to her to immediately get the town block solidly going. However, since we do not know for sure she's town, anyone claiming would need to tell others they're doing it (not what their role is, just that they're making a claim to Clem). Then if they turn up dead, she is immediately suspicious. For this to work though, we'd need a few vanillas to make claims to her as well, in case the people being told are scum.

Let me put it this way for you. Person A wants to claim to Clem. They tell Person B and Person C that they're doing this, so that B and C can tell the rest about the claim being made in the event of Person A's overnight death. However, A does not know that B and C are town! So to prevent the scum from learning who has PRs through B or C, we'd need vanillas also to do this process.

Yes, it'd be a lot of info flying around, but it's not like it's a stumpy code system or anything But again, I reiterate, I do not recommend claiming.

And as for scum watchers, you may not have seen it, but the unofficial reference (mafiascum wiki) states that watchers can be either alignment: http://wiki.mafiascu...p?title=Watcher

Again, lots of supposedly helpful commentary which really isn't. Coupled with no suggestion of how he really feels about Tangerine.

For reference, this was 4 of 2's first reaction to the claim early in the day:

Hm. Still thinking it's risky for you to have claimed (definitely put a target on yourself) but yes, the info is useful to us. And it's a bit useful to the scum, in that they know they didn't kill anything that great last night. But after all the craziness that this ancient civilization known as Ragnarok went through because they didn't know their vig was dead, I'd agree it's good for us to know.

I'm suspecting you didn't start today intending to claim, but you (perhaps hastily) made the early statement that the vig was still alive and then had to dig your way out of that.

Oh, and it's "lose it" - unless it's a tooth in which case it's loose before you lose it

There's an element of fishing here and an element of nonchalance about it. The primary reaction of most was incredulity at the claim coming out with no real impetus for it, but 4 of 2's reaction is that it's helpful without questioning. Only later, after the other reactions come out, does he look at it in detail.

Also, from yesterday:

Honestly, this is pinging my town-dar for Clem. She's legitimately trying to help the town and not voting for someone she thinks is town, even at the potential cost of her own life. There's still many hours left to decide, so she's got time to continue to persuade people. Similarly, I'm NOT going to be voting for either Clem or Wen today - both are still leaning townie to me.

"This" is in reference to Tangerine not voting for Dr. Wen. 4 of 2 didn't really think Tangerine was scum yesterday, enough to vote for Hannah Ford instead. That vote was essentially for not contributing much and not following through. An easy Day 1 vote. There was no followup on it today, though.

Then came this:

But seriously Clem, even I know my vote on Hannah was a throwaway vote. I was just looking for someone I could justify a vote on since it's mandatory and I don't want to vote for you or Wen. But now I'm pinging a bit with how you jumped all over that weak suspicion...

This ping wasn't apparently enough to switch his vote from one that was admittedly weak.

Yet he keeps harping on about Tangerine today. The odd thing about today's harping, though, is that he still isn't coming to any conclusions. He still hasn't come out and really told us if he thinks Tangerine is scum or not. It's like he's waiting for someone else to take the lead on a suspicion so he can latch on to it or zig the other way and vote for someone off the radar.

At this point, it seems like 4 of 2 should have had enough time to form an opinion on Tangerine. Either he thinks she's scum and should vote accordingly, or he should be trying to find someone else to vote for. He hasn't said one thing to follow up on his suspicions of Hannah from yesterday, and what he has said hasn't really helped us move forward. It's not like Hannah has been super quiet. She even had that odd interchange with Laura.

For now I will Vote: Major Dave (fhomess)

Hey, sweet man, someone like's me. Elect Major Dave! Tycho Powder for everyone! Taste the rainbow!

For the record, I had some issues communicating with ground control over the period labor inactivity, although I won't disagree with Seamus.

[Tariq j]

Well, in that case, let me help you change your vote. Your gambit here, (and I quote) "I bet if Clem had defended himself Laura would have said Ping, you're SO scummy for defending yourself" Now the truth is, I wouldn't have. I would've been interested to see what Clementine had to say for her claim, but no, instead we get "Fluff Fluff Fluff Fluff Fluff" and this pinged me instead of defending herself she just ranted on about another player posting Fluff, it was a valid accusation, but it could be interpreted as a catalyst to try and bandwagon someone else hence why I got suspicious. I can assure you if she had made an attempt I would not have said it was scummy, I'm not that guy who goes around saying Ping! The moment someone defends themselves.

Now to your Second Point, honestly, when I was writing that thing about your analysis being fluff, I has skimmed over the posts and had obviously missed the part at the end, at the time I didn't know how you analyse votes, so too me the whole thing about who voted when just looked like an attempt to "beef up" if you like, what would have been a small post.

[Ranger of the Forest]

They could be concerned, at first I thought of Minga being scum but later on I changed my mind about her, I don't think the scum would make it entirely obvious. Maybe they tried to frame her...? I still have a gut feeling she's scum though.

I don't suspect her as much anymore, on the other hand my gut does.

Not exactly, I'm saying that he should probably be investigated if he isn't already. Then when he's confirmed to be town then claim to him.

If he's confirmed scum then don't claim to him, claim to someone else I guess or to the group as a whole.

Oh that wasn't intended to be a vote analysis, just my thoughts on the votes from yesterday.

So you don't suspect her, but your gut does? Last time I checked guts were a part of you, but of course maybe your anatomy is different. Did you mean you don't suspect her because of your brain, but your gut tells you she's guilty regardless?

And why are you so insistent on Seamus being investigated so that the rest of the town can start claiming to him? There have been plenty of examples in the past of this not working out well. I'm not even going to comment on the paranoia that he's the godfather, but I don't get why you want people to claim to him "once he's been investigated."

This whole post just pings me a ton, as do many of your other posts. 4 of 2 has pinged me as well today, but you are the scummiest person today, imo.

Vote: Claw (TheLazyChicken)

Of course this is subject to change but for now my vote stands.

Forgive the grammar mistakes that are likely present here, my mobilionic device makes talking difficult.

Also, if there's reason to believe that Seamus is town and not the godfather, then I guess there's nothing wrong in claiming to him. It's just the fact that Claw was singling him out for people to claim to, if that makes sense.

[Piratedave84]

I'm back

I think I will believe Clem's claim of "backup" for now. It's not a role we see often but it's plausible. I however really don't agree with his claiming the role; I feel it was uncalled for and done in a odd way. It originaly seemed to me tat Clem thought he could pick the role he would replace and he seemed convinced it would be the vig for some reason which to me is just plain weird.

I really don't know where to put my vote today. My initial thought was to vote for Clem BUT I don't want to see our potential backup dead ...

Then there's Minga and her super-fluffy-no-real-content vote breakdown, which was in initially an analysis then a commentary and then an analysis (which was stolen by Claw?) again ... did you or did you not analyse the vote?

[Lind Whisperer]

I think I will believe Clem's claim of "backup" for now. It's not a role we see often but it's plausible. I however really don't agree with his claiming the role; I feel it was uncalled for and done in a odd way. It originaly seemed to me tat Clem thought he could pick the role he would replace and he seemed convinced it would be the vig for some reason which to me is just plain weird.

No, I inherit whoever dies first. When/where did I suggest/imply/think anything else?

[Piratedave84]

No, I inherit whoever dies first. When/where did I suggest/imply/think anything else?

It's in the way you worded it. You said the vig and you knew of your role and to me it read like you KNEW you would get the vig role.

[Dragonfire]

Well, in that case, let me help you change your vote. Your gambit here, (and I quote) "I bet if Clem had defended himself Laura would have said Ping, you're SO scummy for defending yourself" Now the truth is, I wouldn't have. I would've been interested to see what Clementine had to say for her claim, but no, instead we get "Fluff Fluff Fluff Fluff Fluff" and this pinged me instead of defending herself she just ranted on about another player posting Fluff, it was a valid accusation, but it could be interpreted as a catalyst to try and bandwagon someone else hence why I got suspicious. I can assure you if she had made an attempt I would not have said it was scummy, I'm not that guy who goes around saying Ping! The moment someone defends themselves.

Okay, noted. Minga will be watching to see if you do call anyone out for being defensive.

Now to your Second Point, honestly, when I was writing that thing about your analysis being fluff, I has skimmed over the posts and had obviously missed the part at the end, at the time I didn't know how you analyse votes, so too me the whole thing about who voted when just looked like an attempt to "beef up" if you like, what would have been a small post.

You quoted the middle of Minga's post, but not the end. To do that, you would have to manually delete the chunk of text. Are you saying that you did this, and yet skimmed the post?

You explained yourself well enough in response to Minga's slightly sarcastic comment, and for that you look less bad that you did before IMO, but the editing thing really doesn't sit well with Minga and neither does the hypocrisy, so Minga's vote is staying where it is.

Then there's Minga and her super-fluffy-no-real-content vote breakdown, which was in initially an analysis then a commentary and then an analysis (which was stolen by Claw?) again ... did you or did you not analyse the vote?

Let Minga guess... this is all based off you reading Laura's post, which she just said was a mistake caused by skimreading? Are you sure you're not guilty of the same offence?

Wait - you think that Claw did a good/proper analysis and Minga didn't ???

Please tell me how you analyse votes. How Minga analyses votes is shown in her two analysis posts. If you think that is the wrong way to do an analysis, pray tell, enlighten me.

[mostlytechnic]

The following has been edited down to the relevant points I'm responding to:

There's a lot of commentary but no conclusions other than don't claim until you truse someone. No comment on how Tangerine's actions affect his leaning on Tangerine.

Again, lots of supposedly helpful commentary which really isn't. Coupled with no suggestion of how he really feels about Tangerine.

Yet he keeps harping on about Tangerine today. The odd thing about today's harping, though, is that he still isn't coming to any conclusions. He still hasn't come out and really told us if he thinks Tangerine is scum or not. It's like he's waiting for someone else to take the lead on a suspicion so he can latch on to it or zig the other way and vote for someone off the radar.

At this point, it seems like 4 of 2 should have had enough time to form an opinion on Tangerine. Either he thinks she's scum and should vote accordingly, or he should be trying to find someone else to vote for. He hasn't said one thing to follow up on his suspicions of Hannah from yesterday, and what he has said hasn't really helped us move forward. It's not like Hannah has been super quiet. She even had that odd interchange with Laura.

Oh, you mean take a position like I did in these two quotes I found in just seconds of looking:

Overall, after calculating the statistics and outcomes, I'm leaning truth on Clem. I just don't see the upside being worth it for the scum to make such a bold claim.

Personally I'm leaning town on Clem but not enough to claim anything (PR, pranks, vanilla, anything!) to her.

How is that NOT taking a position on her? No, I'm not 100% on her, but how could I be? And if I was leaning scum, I'd throw a vote down. I'm not, so I didn't vote for her.

"This" is in reference to Tangerine not voting for Dr. Wen. 4 of 2 didn't really think Tangerine was scum yesterday, enough to vote for Hannah Ford instead. That vote was essentially for not contributing much and not following through. An easy Day 1 vote. There was no followup on it today, though.

No, an easy day 1 vote would have been to join one of the two bandwagons. But wait, one turned out to be town, just like I said I thought it would, and the other is now claiming a role. And yes, my vote on Hannah was a bit of a throwaway vote because I was NOT going to vote Wen or Clem and since it was very obvious one of them was getting lynched, putting a ton of effort into something else was not worth the time on day 1. And sorry, but all the discussion about Clem's claim has taken my time today. I'm still watching Hannah since she's still so quiet, but so are a TON of you people. So that alone isn't doing a whole lot. Maybe I'll vote for her, maybe I won't today. There's still plenty of time for me to build a case on someone. And I will, now that I'm done discussing Clem for now and ready to move on to other people.

[Piratedave84]

Let Minga guess... this is all based off you reading Laura's post, which she just said was a mistake caused by skimreading? Are you sure you're not guilty of the same offence?

Wait - you think that Claw did a good/proper analysis and Minga didn't ???

Please tell me how you analyse votes. How Minga analyses votes is shown in her two analysis posts. If you think that is the wrong way to do an analysis, pray tell, enlighten me.

I can't find the post and it's possible I got mixed up but you did say that you thought Claw was imitiating you in analyzing the vote. BUT that's kid of besides the point. My point was that your "analysis" is fluffy and not very informative. Vote analysis in general are a good way for scum to contribute, especially this early in the game where we litterally know nothing of others' affiliation.

Good try though, it made for 2 nice long post!!!

[Tariq j]

No, I inherit whoever dies first. When/where did I suggest/imply/think anything else?

Considering there are goodness knows how many scum out there you seem to be revealing a lot about your role in public, too much perhaps.

[Lind Whisperer]

Considering there are goodness knows how many scum out there

*ping* "Hey, everyone! Let's try and subtly imply there are a lot of scum out there, and make town nervous!" *ping*

you seem to be revealing a lot about your role in public, too much perhaps.

It's nothing I haven't revealed already.

If one of the top PRs is killed, I inherit their ability. I inherited nothing last night. Ergo, the vig is alive and breathing.

Also, I'm not positive if we're allowed to quote Mafiascum.wiki, but read the second sentence of the description for Universal Backup. The fact that back-ups inherit automatically isn't some big secret...

EDIT:

"Hey, everyone! I'm going to try and subtly imply there are a lot of scum out there..."

[Tariq j]

Good try though, it made for 2 nice long post!!!

This is exactly what I was trying to get at, your original post was made up of two paragraphs regarding the vote analysis, the first, in my view was unnecessary, hence why I picked it out initially and called it fluff.

[Dragonfire]

I can't find the post and it's possible I got mixed up but you did say that you thought Claw was imitiating you in analyzing the vote.

Oh, okay, you were referring to that.

My point was that your "analysis" is fluffy and not very informative.

Could you do better? Could you be bothered to analyse the vote? If you think Minga's analysis isn't informative enough, do one of your own!

Vote analysis in general are a good way for scum to contribute, especially this early in the game where we litterally know nothing of others' affiliation.

And posting next to nothing is a good way for scum to fly under the radar

*ping* "Hey, everyone! Let's try and subtly imply there are a lot of scum out there, and make town nervous!" *ping*

Surely the scum should be trying to get us to underestimate the number of players they have, to make us overconfident ?? Exaggerating numbers only makes townies warier of the scum and more paranoid - and thus more likely to successfully catch scum.

This is exactly what I was trying to get at, your original post was made up of two paragraphs regarding the vote analysis, the first, in my view was unnecessary, hence why I picked it out initially and called it fluff.

Minga just wanted to make it clear in what order the votes came and what reasons the players gave for submitting the votes. Basically, a compilation of information. Then Minga presented her opinions of people based on these facts.

[Tariq j]

*ping* "Hey, everyone! Let's try and subtly imply there are a lot of scum out there, and make town nervous!" *ping*

I'm sorry but you're simply making something out of nothing here, it's a very normal thing to say, it's early days we don't know how many scum are out there, to say that I was trying to scare the town is simply making a mountain out of a molehill.

Oh, okay, you were referring to that.

Could you do better? Could you be bothered to analyse the vote? If you think Minga's analysis isn't informative enough, do one of your own!

And posting next to nothing is a good way for scum to fly under the radar

Surely the scum should be trying to get us to underestimate the number of players they have, to make us overconfident ?? Exaggerating numbers only makes townies warier of the scum and more paranoid - and thus more likely to successfully catch scum.

Minga just wanted to make it clear in what order the votes came and what reasons the players gave for submitting the votes. Basically, a compilation of information. Then Minga presented her opinions of people based on these facts.

Oh okay, well sorry for going of on a tangent, I guess everyone analyses information differently.

[Piratedave84]

It's nothing I haven't revealed already.

Yeah but I can't help but think this information is more beneficial to the scum than town. Imagine for one moment that scum had found out who the vig (or any PR for that matter) is and they kill him/her, now the scum knows the role will pass on and expects it to. Whereas if you had kept quiet, this role would have been passed on without anyone knowing and would surely have confused the hell out of them.

You also clarified for scum that they failed to kill a PR so you eliminate all doubt to that effect so they know to expect investigations, kills and whatever other NA there may be.

All this to say, I'm ready to believe you but I think you should not have claimed and that you did reveal too much information.

[Hinckley]

Then there's Minga and her super-fluffy-no-real-content vote breakdown, which was in initially an analysis then a commentary and then an analysis (which was stolen by Claw?) again ... did you or did you not analyse the vote?

What's wrong with Minga's vote analysis and where's your better one?

[Piratedave84]

What's wrong with Minga's vote analysis and where's your better one?

I don't have a better one, in fact I don't think there's much to analyse. To me it reads like a "think-out-loud" post rather than an actual analysis. The only true analysis we can do is pin the now-confirmed dead townies vote on there and see where they voted.

[Hinckley]

Yeah but I can't help but think this information is more beneficial to the scum than town. Imagine for one moment that scum had found out who the vig (or any PR for that matter) is and they kill him/her, now the scum knows the role will pass on and expects it to. Whereas if you had kept quiet, this role would have been passed on without anyone knowing and would surely have confused the hell out of them.

You also clarified for scum that they failed to kill a PR so you eliminate all doubt to that effect so they know to expect investigations, kills and whatever other NA there may be.

All this to say, I'm ready to believe you but I think you should not have claimed and that you did reveal too much information.

I disagree with the way Clem has handled her role too, but I think you're making it more dire than it actually is. This is all assuming Clem is on the level, of course. I don't think a backup vig without the Scum having prior knowledge would confuse the hell out of them. I think they'd say "Aw, nuts. A backup." And move on. This may have actually saved the vig's life if they role copped him/her on Night One. Because now they might need to reconfigure their tactics if they know the vig will just be replaced anyway and try to kill a less powerful role if they can figure one out. And the Town now has the information that we have a backup and the Town getting info, which is hard to come by in this game, is a way to strengthen the Town. I don't think everybody should claim publicly. No no no. But the more info we have to go forward on, the more confident we can be as a collective Town. We also know that the second highest vote–getter from yesterday should not be lynched today and we should take the time to let that claim play out and focus on other players' slip–ups. So, while I don't think Clem handled her (claimed) role the best way, I think you should stop berating her when it appears that you are only skimming what has been said anyway.

Um... No I wouldn't, I'm interested as to how (and why) you jumped to that conclusion.

Not saying Rip isn't scum but then the same logic could be applied to your post:

This post could be interpreted as Fluff, there isn't much analysis here, all you've done is basically listed who voted at what time and why they chose to.

I don't have a better one, in fact I don't think there's much to analyse. To me it reads like a "think-out-loud" post rather than an actual analysis. The only true analysis we can do is pin the now-confirmed dead townies vote on there and see where they voted.

As someone else was craikin' earlier, Minga's vote analysis is the most substance we've seen all day. He took the time to check what everyone had said before voting started in order to separate those who appeared to put a lot of thought into their vote and those who seemed to just jump on the bandwagon. I wonder where Paul and Laura show up in that analysis, considering their opinion of it is eerily similar. Is the conversation you had about it on the writeboard spilling over into the day thread, Scummy Scummos?

The votes which look the scummiest to Minga are Harriet, Laura, Rip and Paul's votes, simply because of the lack of reasoning and mindless bandwagoning.

Interesting. Yar looking like the wee hens who never layed away if you know what I mean.

[fhomess]

How is that NOT taking a position on her? No, I'm not 100% on her, but how could I be? And if I was leaning scum, I'd throw a vote down. I'm not, so I didn't vote for her.

I guess it just doesn't seem genuine to me given the way you continued to beat the horse of whether or not it's a good idea to claim to her and how to go about doing it, and hey, she could still be scum.

No, an easy day 1 vote would have been to join one of the two bandwagons. But wait, one turned out to be town, just like I said I thought it would, and the other is now claiming a role. And yes, my vote on Hannah was a bit of a throwaway vote because I was NOT going to vote Wen or Clem and since it was very obvious one of them was getting lynched, putting a ton of effort into something else was not worth the time on day 1. And sorry, but all the discussion about Clem's claim has taken my time today. I'm still watching Hannah since she's still so quiet, but so are a TON of you people. So that alone isn't doing a whole lot. Maybe I'll vote for her, maybe I won't today. There's still plenty of time for me to build a case on someone. And I will, now that I'm done discussing Clem for now and ready to move on to other people.

To what purpose has all the time and effort you've put into Tangerine's claim gotten you? It has gotten you nothing other than to basically say what everyone else has said about it in about 1/10th the number of words. That's what makes me feel like you're really walking the line and trying to appear helpful without actually being helpful.

Your proposals were poorly thought out and at the end you decided we shouldn't do it anyway (although not for the reasons that they wouldn't work as described so much as you didn't yet trust her). So what was the point of letting us all know about them other than to just look helpful?