Blacktron Mafia: Day 2, Space Oddity

[Sir Stig]

We know Bock, Seamus, Diamond, Hannah, Harriet, Laura, Dave, Paul, 'Rip' and Nathan all voted for Doctor Wen. Ender did too but he's confirmed town.

Those who voted for Clementine were me, Minga, Zip Zop, and Vasquez, so did Clark and Doctor Wen but they're already confirmed to be town.

Then 4 of 2 and Clementine placed individual votes.

Scum like to spread their votes so with 19 players I suspect at least 4 scum members. Meaning 2 of them could be in Clementine bandwagon while the other 2 could be in the Dr. Wen bandwagon unless there was only 1 scummo in one bandwagon and 2 scummos in the other, this would mean that either 4 of 2 or Clementine could also be scum.

If scum like to spread their votes, but there was only 2 others that had votes before, wouldn't that be too obvious? Or were they hoping more people joined in on their suspicion/reasoning? In my mind maybe 4 out of 2 or Clementine (whoever was first at nominating another one) could be Mafia, but not both. But, of course, they could be. But I think at most maybe 1 of them.

[Sir Stig]

Okay. Here's Minga's vote analysis (just of the Wen bandwagon for now).

11 votes for Doctor Wen (Xenophobic Monoxide) (Mediumsnowman, Hinckley, Tariq, Bob, Captain Nemo, TinyPiesRUs, CallMePie, Fhomess, Piratedave84, Jluck, Ranger of the Forest)

First vote on Wen was Harriet. She had previously been extremely impatient for voting to start and had stated point blank that Dr. Wen was scum. Seamus soon followed, citing Wen's suspicious behaviour as his reason for voting; he had previously expressed his suspicion. Laura and Bock were next; both provided limited reasoning other than "his posts are suspicious". After two votes on Clementine, Rip then followed, in a similar fashion to the previous two votes. After a further two votes on Clementine, Nathan chimes in, pointing out some discrepancies in Wen's posts and using them as a basis for his vote. This is quickly followed by Diamond, who earlier called out Wen's contradictions. Major Dave placed the next vote, using Nathan's points as his basis for voting. And Paul votes as well, once again providing little reasoning or explanation other than "he's scummy". Ender (confirmed town) hammered the lynch. And then Hannah got her vote in, while saying that she wished she didn't have to...

That was very interesting read. Could you do the same summary on the Clementine votes? I see a lot of information.

On basis of this summary of your reasoning, Hannah screams out to me for not almost not saying anything about anyone. Laura and Bock for their "let's make him look quilty" way of putting their votes. I must reread if I see their posts the same way you do.

[Dragonfire]

That was very interesting read. Could you do the same summary on the Clementine votes? I see a lot of information.

Okay, Minga will try her best.

But couldn't Zipzup do some work himself instead of just asking others to do it for him??

[Lady K]

So Clementine has claimed a role that is hard to verify, very early in the game, in public......

It's not so much the claim that bothers me as it is the post that lead up to and followed the claim. Almost like she knew she would be the main target for today and is trying to save her own skin when Day 2 has just started. Guilt complex maybe....or legit claim and not sure how to use it best. But to me her post seem full of fishing for info on power roles, protecting her own behind, and really trying hard to get into the town block.

In retrospect, if he had been scum, they'd have prompted him to propose at least some sort of defense...

The whole "personal life" bit might have countered-acted that, though, so...Yeah, definition of WIFOM, right there.

I'm guessing it was either a not-kill, or a convert action by the scum. It could have been blocking, but I doubt that. There are just too few good targets for it to have been a block - and I didn't have a night action.

The only other person who might draw a "block" action would be Hinckley, just because, well, Hinckley - and I doubt, in the case he's part of a scum team, they'd have given him a kill action, so it probably wasn't a block.

Why are you so sure that there were no good targets for a block that you discount a block even happening last night? And you state you didn't have a night action, which seems like you are saying 'Hey I didn't do anything last night....so no one accuse me of anything'.

I'd rather not go into how I know for a bit longer, but we didn't kill the vig last night. He's still alive. Who he is, I have no idea. But he's alive.

Also, I'll probably need a protection action tonight for having shared that, but I didn't want us to go off track...

Seconded.

So you are suggesting that you know for a fact that the vig is still alive, which seems to suggest that you do have a night action and that you targeted the vig last night. And your way to early no way to prove it role claim would be a nice cover statement for you being the scum killer and failing at killing the vig.

And asking for protection?....I would think there are others that would need protection more than you so if you really are trying to help town, why ask for your own protection? Would it not be better for our vig or investigator to get protection instead?

If I was stripping someone, it'd be one of the la-*CREEP ALERT* *CREEP ALERT* *CREEP ALERT*

-Anyways, nope. I'm just trying to calculate who's likely to be doing what, based on previous games, and the possibilities of what people in variarious positions and affiliations might do. If you were scum, you wouldn't be making the kill, since you would know that you were the player most likely to have the Watcher - if there is a Watcher - watching you, and they would know if you targeted someone.

I'm assuming then, that it wasn't a blocked kill, because I'm not Scum, and there aren't any "higher-visibility" targets to target with a block action, and picking a block target out of the other player selection would almost certainly fail on blocking Scum just based on percentages.

I (and the vig, to some extent, now) are the only people that know I'm not scum. If I had been targeted by a block action, it would have been useless, and scum would have killed last night. Scum wouldn't try and kill Hinckley, because he'd almost certainly be protected Night One, until he could be investigated. Ergo, it was either a no-kill by vig or scum, or a convert.

And again you are saying 'Hey there was no block and I'm not the scum killer'. And add to it by saying, "If I had been targeted by a block action, it would have been useless, and scum would have killed last night". So let me get this straight, if you were blocked then scum would have killed? But because you keep saying you were not blocked scum didn't kill?..... So scum killing or not killing is based on you being blocked, is that correct? This sounds like reverse psychology here.

That's one assumption.

Assuming I was scum, how would I know, day 1, who the vig was? That makes no sense. If I was scum, all I would know was whether the kill failed or succeeded - not alignment.

I'm saying, I'm the backup. If one of the top PRs is killed, I inherit their ability. I inherited nothing last night. Ergo, the vig is alive and breathing.

Think of me as sort of a town gauge.

And I was serious about that protection.

And I get Watcher and Tracker mixed up.

Still, though, Tracker's not that uncommon a role. If we had one, they likely targeted you. And Scum would be aware of that, so point still sort of stands. Sort of.

Claiming a difficult to prove role to cover up for everything you have said so far. And asking for personal protection again?

No, I said nothing of the sort. Don't twist things I haven't even said.

*ping*If I am a Godfather, I'm a lousy Godfather. I'm claiming a role the knowledge from which can only be known at this point by either the back-up or the roles themselves. And the difficulty of pretending to be a back-up would only get harder as the game progressed, and as roles were revealed. Why, why, why would I claim Near-Universal Back-up, of all roles, if I was the Godfather? :wacko: :wacko:

I answer this for you....you claimed Near-Universal Back-up to cover for you being the Godfather, which is a role you keep bring up.

Yes, claim to the person I have feared and suspect/ed to be a Godfather. Brilliant suggestion.

Yeah, and if I don't have anyone to claim to, it doesn't matter if I can catch liars or not, because I have no way of calling them out.

Why do you need to claim to anyone so early in the game?

I really feel all this is pointing to you almost saying your are the scum killer/and the Godfather.

[Hinckley]

Clementine, how are you sure you'd be notified at the beginning of the day that you've been given an Action?

"let's make him look quilty"

Ma' nan made toasty warm quilts.

[Dragonfire]

Okay, here goes the Clementine wagon analysis:

6 votes for Clementine Lister (Lind Whisperer): (Chromeknight, Sir Stig, Xenophobic Monoxide, Lazychicken, Lady K, Dragonfire)

After voting opened, Harriet, Seamus, Laura and Bock put down votes on Wen in succession. Clark (confirmed town) was the first to vote for Clem, breaking the pattern. His reasoning was based on Clem's odd comments about Seamus being the godfather. Half an hour later, Zipzup votes, citing Clark's post as his reasoning for the vote. Like Minga, he said that if Wen was scum it was very foul play indeed. After Rip's vote for Wen, Wen himself then votes Clementine. Not much can be gained from this as we know Wen was town and he was basically voting to save himself. About twenty minutes after Wen's vote, Claw votes for Clementine. His reasons are that she is suspecting too many people on Day One. and is trying to spread votes and cause a no lynch (He also agrees with Zipzup on the foul play theory). Then there's quite a long gap. Two more votes on Wen, a couple of people saying they think both lynchees are town, and then Clem's vote on Harriet. Vasquez makes her vote at this point. She cites multiple reasons, including Clem's calling people out for posting fluff, going after newbies, making scummy comments about Seamus being the godfather, and trying to look active and helpful. Three minutes later, Minga votes for Clementine too. Minga was last online before voting opened, and Minga was busy reading the thread and deciding who to vote for when Vasquez voted. Minga didn't see Vasquez's post until she herself had hit post. Minga voted for Clementine because of metagame reasons (read the voting post) and the reasons she had stated earlier in the day. This vote was the last vote on Clementine.

Honestly, in Minga's opinion if there is scum on the wagon, it is probably Claw. Vasquez brought up some solid points against Clementine; Zipzup made a good point advocating Wen's towniness, Clark and Wen have died and flipped town, and Minga knows she is town too. Claw's reasons don't make much sense. Calling four people out on Day One is good - it provides discussion and gets people talking. Besides, did Claw seriously think that Clementine could influence the entire town into spreading their votes? Furthermore, Claw was parroting others' theories. Not that I outright scumread him, but he is the likeliest scum on the Clementine wagon. I must say though, his vote was far townier than half of the Wen votes.

One more thing. Harriet, you were worried about getting killed at night if you posted your scum-list. Well, you didn't die. Care to post your list now? Keeping it hidden doesn't do anyone any good...

[Lind Whisperer]

Clementine, how are you sure you'd be notified at the beginning of the day that you've been given an Action?

Because I specifically asked if I'd inherited any Roles. And I haven't.

[Dragonfire]

So you are suggesting that you know for a fact that the vig is still alive, which seems to suggest that you do have a night action and that you targeted the vig last night. And your way to early no way to prove it role claim would be a nice cover statement for you being the scum killer and failing at killing the vig.

Vasquez, if Clementine is telling the truth, then she would have been notified had the vigilante died (I think.... ). Therefore if she is who she says she is, then the Vig is alive & kicking.

[Hinckley]

Speaking of which I did receive clarification that the night pranking doesn't effect game mechanics though it is player driven.

[Lind Whisperer]

Would it not be better for our vig or investigator to get protection instead?

Yes...If we knew who they are, which we don't.

I answer this for you....you claimed Near-Universal Back-up to cover for you being the Godfather, which is a role you keep bring up.

Read the post, soldier. If I was a Godfather, there's no good way for me to be a barometer long-term - there's at least one role I can inherit that I couldn't fake - and that goes quadruple for having everyone watching me suspiciously. If I was claiming back-up vig, it would be a good way for me to hide as a Godfather, but I'm not.

Why do you need to claim to anyone so early in the game?

Because if the barometer thing was going to work, it was easier to share it now, in public, than to try and convince people through PMs. If the investigator investigated me, and got a Loyal reading, the immediate first suspicions would have been that I was a Godfather, and I'd have had to explain my way through that mess. It was just better to reveal it to the whole town early on, then to try and wade through that sort of mess.

One more thing. Harriet, you were worried about getting killed at night if you posted your scum-list. Well, you didn't die. Care to post your list now? Keeping it hidden doesn't do anyone any good...

^

[Tariq j]

.

I bet if Clementine had defended himself Laura would have said "Ping, you're SO scummy for defending yourself!"

Um... No I wouldn't, I'm interested as to how (and why) you jumped to that conclusion.

And I do think Clementine has a point about Rip, whether it was deflection or not.

Not saying Rip isn't scum but then the same logic could be applied to your post:

First vote on Wen was Harriet. She had previously been extremely impatient for voting to start and had stated point blank that Dr. Wen was scum. Seamus soon followed, citing Wen's suspicious behaviour as his reason for voting; he had previously expressed his suspicion. Laura and Bock were next; both provided limited reasoning other than "his posts are suspicious". After two votes on Clementine, Rip then followed, in a similar fashion to the previous two votes. After a further two votes on Clementine, Nathan chimes in, pointing out some discrepancies in Wen's posts and using them as a basis for his vote. This is quickly followed by Diamond, who earlier called out Wen's contradictions. Major Dave placed the next vote, using Nathan's points as his basis for voting. And Paul votes as well, once again providing little reasoning or explanation other than "he's scummy". Ender (confirmed town) hammered the lynch. And then Hannah got her vote in, while saying that she wished she didn't have to.

This post could be interpreted as Fluff, there isn't much analysis here, all you've done is basically listed who voted at what time and why they chose to.

[Sir Stig]

Okay, Minga will try her best.

But couldn't Zipzup do some work himself instead of just asking others to do it for him??

I am trying. I suggested block/investigate Wen, and I provided my reasoning. And he turned town. I thought Clementine, and we don't know if he is a backup yet. I think your analysis were interesting and I had to read their voting posts. While trying to locate Laura Starbucks votes I had a problem finding them, and had to search the system search database (forum) by entering codeword: Tariq J. The posts were empty, no subjects, not helpful for the town at all. This strikes me as suspicious. I wish Laura Starbucks could just fill in Personell form 113X44b.

(Can everyone please add their name into their signature? I get confused and of the subject when I have to waste time finding Major piratedaves from Callmetinypies, and don't confuse players from characters. It's distracting).

[Hinckley]

Yes...If we knew who they are, which we don't.

Sorry we're all daft and you're such a genius. Your continued use of "we" is disturbing, though.

[mediumsnowman]

One more thing. Harriet, you were worried about getting killed at night if you posted your scum-list. Well, you didn't die. Care to post your list now? Keeping it hidden doesn't do anyone any good...

I've been reading through some older games and the MafiaWiki, and I seem to keep forgetting I can win even if I die. That's mostly why I was afraid of getting killed Night 1.

I suspected Dr. Wen, even calling him scummy yesterday. I was honestly surprised to see him flip town today.

Captain Nemo is slightly pinging me. I don't have a lot of evidence... it's just a gut feeling.

Captain Nemo said

In regards to Clementine's claim--I utterly reject the call for our town blocker, whomever it may be, to spend effort protecting him.

I think Clementine really is the backup and he has the towns best interest at heart. Unless there's someone else that's better to protect (ie a first-tier PR claims)why would you NOT "spend effort protecting him?" A backup is important as at some point we'll accidently lynch a PR or the scum/SK will get lucky and kill one. This post seemed... weird to me at best.

As I think Lind pointed out, he's also been rather quiet and when he does post it's mostly fluff, with the exception of the above post I just quoted.

Don't freak out on me... I could very well be wrong, but it's a gut feeling.

[Sir Stig]

This post could be interpreted as Fluff, there isn't much analysis here, all you've done is basically listed who voted at what time and why they chose to.

Well, she also reveals how she sees why they chose to. That is information right there. I got a new perspective to try and look with. Perhaps Mingas perspective is valid, perhaps not. I see Laura Starbucks leapt into action as I was writing and checking my facts. Still not much effort to come up with suggestions/suspicions. I think she may be panicking. Worth to look into. Brain hurts. I gotta shut my eye.

[TheLazyChicken]

Honestly, in Minga's opinion if there is scum on the wagon, it is probably Claw. Vasquez brought up some solid points against Clementine; Zipzup made a good point advocating Wen's towniness, Clark and Wen have died and flipped town, and Minga knows she is town too. Claw's reasons don't make much sense. Calling four people out on Day One is good - it provides discussion and gets people talking. Besides, did Claw seriously think that Clementine could influence the entire town into spreading their votes? Furthermore, Claw was parroting others' theories. Not that I outright scumread him, but he is the likeliest scum on the Clementine wagon. I must say though, his vote was far townier than half of the Wen votes.

Clementine COULD have influenced the whole town, especially if he gave reasons for different people which would lead to people having different theories and people placing different votes resulting in a no-lynch.

[Dragonfire]

Speaking of which I did receive clarification that the night pranking doesn't effect game mechanics though it is player driven.

Our beloved Host clarified this at the beginning of the Day. Although players are submittingbrickmario loves Disney! actions, they're not "roles" per se, apparently.

Um... No I wouldn't, I'm interested as to how (and why) you jumped to that conclusion.

Most of us know that excessive defending is a scum-tell. You're going after Clem for not defending herself...

This post could be interpreted as Fluff, there isn't much analysis here, all you've done is basically listed who voted at what time and why they chose to.

Big ping.

You have basically quoted Minga's post and truncated it by removing the parts where Minga analysed the vote. Minga is not sure how you interpret "analysis" but how Minga analyses the vote is this: She goes through the votes, briefly comments on everyone's vote and then draws her opinion of the people from how they voted. You've just taken part of Minga's post and used that to call Minga a hypocrite... and to deflect suspicion from yourself to Minga. Now it's you who's the hypocrite, Laura dear...

(Can everyone please add their name into their signature? I get confused and of the subject when I have to waste time finding Major piratedaves from Callmetinypies, and don't confuse players from characters. It's distracting).

Minga concurs. She also had a problem finding Paul's name (since it is not in his signature). That is really the only problem- Zipzup will have to get used to the two Pies....

Although players are submittingbrickmario loves Disney! actions,

Brickmario loves Disney!? I posted the word p r a n k.

I suspected Dr. Wen, even calling him scummy yesterday. I was honestly surprised to see him flip town today.

Nope, you definitively called him scum. (ie. you said that the only explanation was that he was scum). Minga was surprised at your certainty in your opinion.

To me, Xen immediately jumps out as scummy, for the same reasons as several have stated above. Why else would he strongly disagree with the possibility of Hinckley being scum? Certainly only stems from belonging to the scum team...

Does Harriet mean to say that her whole "list of suspicions" thing was just Doctor Wen and nothing else? Bit of a big deal for one name, especially considering you voted him anyway...

[Captain Nemo]

Read the post, soldier. If I was a Godfather, there's no good way for me to be a barometer long-term - there's at least one role I can inherit that I couldn't fake - and that goes quadruple for having everyone watching me suspiciously. If I was claiming back-up vig, it would be a good way for me to hide as a Godfather, but I'm not.

Well, if you are the godfather, you won't be the barometer--you'd just be claiming an obscure role to pass off your true scummy role. I'll also note that I cannot be the only one finding Clementine's wording strange. Not just the 'we' as Seamus has noted, but rather the "if I was the godfather" speak. I mean come on, that akin to saying: "well officer, I didn't murder that person, but if I did, and if I was the killer, I would have done it just like this..."

That just comes off as guilty language to me. Also why are you constantly referring to a godfather rather than the godfather (you are suggesting there is more than one)?

Because if the barometer thing was going to work, it was easier to share it now, in public, than to try and convince people through PMs. If the investigator investigated me, and got a Loyal reading, the immediate first suspicions would have been that I was a Godfather, and I'd have had to explain my way through that mess. It was just better to reveal it to the whole town early on, then to try and wade through that sort of mess.

What's inherently suspicious of an investigation turning up townie? I mean, you would turn up loyal anyways...because you are town right? Again there's the suggestion that "if I was the godfather"...it's like you're talking out your scummy reasoning in public.

Captain Nemo is slightly pinging me. I don't have a lot of evidence... it's just a gut feeling.

Captain Nemo said

I think Clementine really is the backup and he has the towns best interest at heart. Unless there's someone else that's better to protect (ie a first-tier PR claims)why would you NOT "spend effort protecting him?" A backup is important as at some point we'll accidently lynch a PR or the scum/SK will get lucky and kill one. This post seemed... weird to me at best.

I don't discount the small amount of evidence. I've not said much--I'll admit that.

As for the backup (and my statement about it, in regards to protecting)--it is not nearly as important of a role now because it has lost almost all of it's potential later significance. It has been exposed. Clementine will now always be suspect to the scum, because they will have to assume that after any of their kills (or any death that occurs) Clementine holds to potential to be a PR. He cannot trap any scum later on either, by claiming the role after a scum-PR-claim. The backup is not nearly as important if every assumes he's got a PR after every death.

[Lady K]

Vasquez, if Clementine is telling the truth, then she would have been notified had the vigilante died (I think.... ). Therefore if she is who she says she is, then the Vig is alive & kicking.

I considered this, but I find it strange that she keeps focusing on the vig (and godfather) instead of all roles being alive. It seems she can't think outside this box.

[Hinckley]

Brickmario loves Disney!? I posted the word p r a n k.

This is a remnant of April Fool's Day.

I considered this, but I find it strange that she keeps focusing on the vig (and godfather) instead of all roles being alive. It seems she can't think outside this box.

This is because there was speculation that one of the three dead Townies could be our vig. And Godfather because she freaked out yesterday that 4 of 2 could be trying to get everyone to claim to me when today she seems to be trying to form a town block around herself. Her fear yesterday was that 4 wanted people to claim to me because she was afraid I could be the Godfather after reading a game I wasn't in that gave her nightmares about me.

[Ranger of the Forest]

I am trying. I suggested block/investigate Wen, and I provided my reasoning. And he turned town. I thought Clementine, and we don't know if he is a backup yet. I think your analysis were interesting and I had to read their voting posts. While trying to locate Laura Starbucks votes I had a problem finding them, and had to search the system search database (forum) by entering codeword: Tariq J. The posts were empty, no subjects, not helpful for the town at all. This strikes me as suspicious. I wish Laura Starbucks could just fill in Personell form 113X44b.

Maybe i’ve forgotten how to read, but this post confuses the hell out of me

It’s very muddled, and I’m not entirely clear on what you’re trying to say. Especially the beginning. Would it be too much trouble to rephrase this, so I and everyone else can get a better understanding of your intent?

I've been reading through some older games and the MafiaWiki, and I seem to keep forgetting I can win even if I die. That's mostly why I was afraid of getting killed Night 1.

Hate to get preachy here, but self preservation isn’t as important as the whole town coming up on top at the end. Or scum in your case, I suppose

[mediumsnowman]

Hate to get preachy here, but self preservation isn’t as important as the whole town coming up on top at the end. Or scum in your case, I suppose

Is this an accusation? I said I kept forgetting I could win even if I die. If I'm killed, and we still catch all the Blacktron, I still am among the winners, as I discovered during my reading. I came into Day 1 thinking about self-preservation, but after reading the wiki and older games, I have realized it is not as important as I first thought. Where is the confusion?

[Ranger of the Forest]

Is this an accusation? I said I kept forgetting I could win even if I die. If I'm killed, and we still catch all the Blacktron, I still am among the winners, as I discovered during my reading. I came into Day 1 thinking about self-preservation, but after reading the wiki and older games, I have realized it is not as important as I first thought. Where is the confusion?

No. More of an observation than anything. I’m more inclined to think that you’re townie than not right now. I’m glad to hear you think that. I don’t know what confusion you’re referring to, though, other than what I said about Zipzop’s post. Of course I can’t be sure of your identity either way, and I meant calling you scum in more of a joking way. I don’t call people scum unless there’s a genuine reason to believe that they actually are. Should I have put a face in to make that more obvious?

[mediumsnowman]

No. More of an observation than anything. I’m more inclined to think that you’re townie than not right now. I’m glad to hear you think that. I don’t know what confusion you’re referring to, though, other than what I said about Zipzop’s post. Of course I can’t be sure of your identity either way, and I meant calling you scum in more of a joking way. I don’t call people scum unless there’s a genuine reason to believe that they actually are. Should I have put a face in to make that more obvious?

My apologies, it appears I interpreted your tone incorrectly. As we saw on Day 1 with mostlytechnic making a joke about claiming, sometimes these things can be taken badly and spiral out of control.

[Piratedave84]

I missed the beginning of the day and am now trying to catch up but I'm not sure I understand the VIG/replacement thing quite yet ... I'll read the day over again ...