kurigan

Here is the still unfinished WIP, HMS Scorpion, a rebuild of my old brig, and perhaps the premier vessel of my plastic fleet. I didn’t want to post anything on her until she was finished but I find myself at an impasse. I’m afraid, for all that I’ve managed to make her, she still isn’t quite what I wanted. My goal was to create a rated ship, to finally be able to call one of my mini-fig commanders, Captain. Unfortunately, even with all the bricks and creativity I could muster, I still seem to have only wound up with a ship sloop, or at best a corvette. Scorpion’s design is meant to look like something of an early to mid 18th century vessel inspired by HMS Blanford (the historic reference for Grand Turk, Indefatigable in A&E’s “Hornblower” series). Her guns are quite large on her deck, representing, perhaps twelve pounders or greater, but alas they are only nine to a broad side. In my topic "A Question about Ship Ratings" I sought a consensus but one could not be satisfactorily reached for my purposes, good points made in both favors, as to whether or not Scorpion in this form would rate a frigate. Though she does sport two equally large bow chasers there is just is no way to count them amongst the broad side. Intended to be a British ship, deeming her a corvette is out, in either the time frame of her construction or in contemporary terms to the rest of my fleet (mid 18th and turn of the century, respectively). Wanting so bad to have finally built a Ship, I’m loath to resign her to an 18gun sloop, but unless I can come up with something really clever, it seems to be her fate. To create the shape of her hull from what bricks I have available I needed to devise a whole new (or new to me) method, of construction. I took the idea of SNOT to something of an extreme, building the lower portion of Scorpion’s hull upside down out of plates, bricks and roof slopes. The focsle and stern gallery are built top to bottom in this fashion while the mid sections are set in with studs on top. The walls are upside down but use their studs more like cleats, sinking into the bricks below but not actually attaching. An offset between the inserted deck sections and the upside down walls allows the walls to lean in wards, creating the illusion of a tumble home. I’ve taken Mini figure illusion scale to something of an extreme and for photographic purposes; she is best represented without her crew. A mini figure standing on her deck and assumed to be of the same scale would likely stand about 8-10 feet tall. So far the only solutions I can foresee to increase her broad side are unattractive at best. Firstly I could just cram another pair of guns on her already crowded focsle, or to add the same port intended to turn the bow chasers to the side when necessary, but the extra port just doesn’t look right. I could eliminate the stern cabin all together and add in the last port on the quarter deck but I just plane don’t want to lose the gallery or over all sloping shape of the profile. I could also add a hatch to the stern cabin and fake their being a gun behind it, but this would further skew her scale. I’d be very interested to hear if anyone has any creative solutions and positive feedback on my designed is welcomed. Full-rez images Disclaimer: My situation has not changed; my brick supply is still extremely limited. I have only the contents of a few lots of assorted used bricks (including some of those nefarious knock-off brands) and what was deconstructed from Classic Pirates sets from my child hood. There is the occasional gift of a tiny mini fig set, but that hardly constitutes enough to augment my designs, mostly just gives me new characters. I did recently rediscover a cache of bricks I had been overlooking in my last few projects. They are all of the same variety, but granted me enough to attempt upon a ship.

That's a really neat gun, i like the use of that axle mount on top. if you left the wheels off it'd make a great cannonade too.

All my fleet shall drink a toast to the gallant Surprise and the confusion of Bonaparte as well fire a salute to her memory. To your new project also sir, may she be a grand and formidable war machine!

She looks amazing, is breath taking too strong a sentiment? A more realistic lego ship I doubt I’ve ever seen. I seriously covet this vessel. If there is one thing I’m not fond of, it is certainly a singular and unimportant issue. I am not fond of the red gun port flaps though. I much rather liked the black. Honestly this is a trifle. As for floating the hull, you might try trapping some closed cell foam within the cavity inside the hull. Though I wouldn’t suggest spraying it actually inside the structure as it would probably break her apart and effectively, glue everything together; expanding spray foam, like from the hard ware store, could be used to add buoyancy. I’d first form a block, somewhat larger than the hull and then carve it down to fit. You may have to ballast to offset the increased (or would it be decreased?) draft, but that could be as simple as laying a few marbles or ball bearings along the keel first. If the flat back gig type Lego boats bother you for accuracy, I’ve seen many times (wouldn’t even know who to credit) where builders cut two Lego boats off at the stern and glued them together to make one longer craft. Again, thanks for sharing her!

Maidstone speaks Reliant: As HMS Maidstone glides in to port, she salutes Reliant, still fitting out. Just for fun I downloaded your LFX file and popped her in alongside my own Maidstone. Since you say you desire comparison to others I didn’t think you’d mind. I was always curious how one of my own vessels would compare next one built on prefab hulls, in this style. I’m happy to say the scale and scope are quite similar and it encourages me to feel I’ve done well, since I have not yet witnessed any of these LDD designs of mine in the living plastic, so to speak. I chose to compare Reliant (formerly Leda) to my own Maidstone as their draft and armament are somewhat similar. We both carry 24 cannon on the gun deck and their respective proportions are evident by the images. I rate mine as a 24 gun sixth rate, counting only the 24lb, guns on the gun deck (if 24s are to unbelievably big, then 18s) while the smaller, perhaps 12lb-ers, on the upper deck are intended to have been added after commissioning. How do you like the comparison? As I drafted this I realized, I inadvertently pointed my guns at you, hence the opening line. If at all you had notice I’d rather you take it, not as a sign of aggression, but rather a salute I do like what you’ve done with her so far. The update definitely looks much smoother and complete.

Just this past week, I found myself wondering what I could do to be more of a contributor around here. Sure I comment, offer assistance where I can and of course show off my own projects, but I’ve wanted to do more for a while now. I’m not sure about what sort of content I’d need to generate in this role, but I’d like to throw my hat into the ring. I like this community and would enjoy being a greater part, taking it to new and better places. I am of course fluent in written English. I have experience with photo editing and graphic design as well as videography and photography. Even if this works out not to be the particular job for me I’d like to find the one that is.

Wow, she’s really coming along. I do like her better as a brig though. If I have one complaint it’s that red gear, under the wheel, don’t know if that part even comes in another color, but if it were black or even dark grey it would be a lot less noticeable. Admiral Croissant is correct, a windlass might be more appropriate, and it seems you could even build out that structure which supports the bow sprit to accommodate one. Thanks for sharing her, and good luck in school.

I would submit that a brick built hull may better suit you project. By building the ship keel up, stem to stern, you can create very different shapes, from those that prefab hull pieces bind you to. For instance I offer, just about any, of my LDD ships. I suggest starting at the end, with the newest designs. You can also see something of a “proof of concept” in my real world models.

Skipper, I wouldn’t be too worried about figuring out what class she may or may not be. Classing ships is much more of a modern concern than something of the early 19th century or earlier. “Class” comes out of standardization of ship building, and where as many ships can be so categorized, by the reuse of designs, many more were simply captures from foreign yards, rebuilds or just plain “one-offs”. This is where the rating system comes in to play. By rating a vessel on fire power you can belittle the need to understand her exact characteristics, for general concerns. If your model pleases you as a 48, then what’s to stop you? If it’s historic reverence, or all out accuracy you seek, a quick Google search is a great, free, way to start finding reference material. I personally find the work of other modelers in other mediums, such as wooden models, very helpful. 48 guns is a lot for a frigate, but it’s not unprecedented. At one point, American frigates carried as many as 50. As for the Leda Class, BjornuThis Wiki Articleis tolerably complete, but for more you can also go to the Trincomalee website. As for this model so far, I find the abrupt rise for and aft distracting. Seems it would be better to make the sections longer, spreading the curvature out more along the length of the hull. As for the dorsal view, you’re limited by those prefab hull sections. Not to beat a dead horse, but if you build from the keel up, you do can much, much more to affect the dynamics of your ship’s hull. I would also suggest doing something very different with the stern gallery. While we’re on the subject of Trincomalee, take a look at her stern for reference. In a digital environment, there is really nothing to hold you back, but your own ambition. Don’t get me wrong, if I didn’t see potential here I wouldn’t comment at all. Keep at it and thanks for sharing! Also if you like the movie so much I whole heartedly suggest the original books by Patrick O'brien, on which the movie is based. If, like me, you're not much of the reading type, I can tell you that the audio books narrated by Patrick Tull are great! Though it's rumored that O'brian never liked Tull's interpretation I find that he really brings the characters to life. If you have the capability to seek such things out, you can find the files for download, but if not they are of course for sale from any number of book sellers online. One more thing… Horay for LDD!

I thank you for your input SearchFunction, however, I find myself distracted by “if you want accuracy that is”. What’s that about? I did clearly state in the original post, that I strive for accuracy and a quick perusing of my posts and topics would reveal a trend to much the same effect. “Only the broadside guns are counted as these where the ones that mattered in the line of battle.” Seems to hold up as a general rule, until you start rating vessels that were never intended to take part in line of battle; frigates of the Fifth and Sixth rate for instance. By then end of the 18th century, the rating system had been dramatically altered to include such vessels. More to the point, even with changes it doesn’t seem to me that the rule in question was ever quite clearly stated, nor that anyone at the time particularly cared. From my point of view it appears that the rules were bent and broken regularly, for any number of reasons, further complicating the matter. I am in fact quite settled on a British vessels of the late 18th century. I’ll even go so far as to reveal that the vessel in question carries a 9 gun broad side, with two bow chasers and three masts, square rigged. It is my ambition to rate her as a post ship, thereby giving my wholly fictious commander his step to post captain. I do not wish to be seen as a hypocrite, however; so if a sloop she must be than a sloop she’ll be. The only judges I feel I should be concerned with are myself, of course, and the community here, who will be my primary (if not exclusive) audience. This is all for pure fancy though and holds no significance beyond the amusement of my peers and myself. If the presentation fails, the model will still stand out for the pain staking triumph I’m confident she will be. Keep in mind I am working from a very limited stock of bricks and am therefore bound, not by what I should do, but by what I can pull off. Perhaps I should alter the phrasing of my question from “what should I do” to “would any one object?”

I'm concerned, as you photography does all your fine work no justice. i have some experience and would like to help if i can. would you tell me what sort of camera are you using and are you using a tripod (or some other device like a stool)? I really like what i can make out, your level of detail is impressive.

how do you figure?

I very much like you project. We don’t seem to get a lot of ketches and such rigs around here, mostly frigates and brigs, and the change of pace is enjoyable. There are a few thing I would have suggested changing before moving on to rigging, but somehow your previous post slipped right by me. The guns being unevenly place along the ship length throws me just a bit. It’s not unheard from a historic sand point, especially amongst smaller vessels. The size and number of guns with only the one before the mast while the others are equidistant after the mast makes the first one look out of place. If it had a companion perhaps it would flow better. I also find the Lego guns far too large for all but the biggest vessels. You might find you get a better effect with scaling and placement if you were to go with smaller, brick built cannons. This also may clear you enough deck space to place a mortar or two and make her the bomb ketch you first suggested. I also can’t say I like that bow sprit at all. It works, but doesn’t convince, with such a stumpy lower portion and the outer portion sprouting directly from the center. If you could muster bricks enough to make the larger portion longer and then attach the skinner to the top, it would look a great deal more authentic. Now that I’m watching the thread, I’m anxious to see how she works out. Thanks for doing something just a bit different, and thanks for sharing. Quick google gab for example

good point.

I really like that windlass. With your permission, I may use something just like it on my own WIP. Also, "B" seems to compliment the hull better.

As for the addition of guns after commission, at the discretion of a given ship’s commander, that point I take. If for nothing but my own pride I’ll assure all that I was well aware of the practice on my own. In my particular case, I am wondering (without giving too much away) if the chasers, intended to be an integral part of the vessel’s design from the very beginning, would affect the rating. As for the wiki article, I had it booked marked as a quick reference but find it tolerably vague on my matter. I would very much like to count my vessel in the higher rate but to do so would require the consideration of two bow chasers in the calculation. Without the guns in question, she’ll come up two guns short. To most, it’s no great matter, but with my personal insistence upon historical accuracy I’d hate to look the fool for such an error; particularly so, if it were only to serve my own pride and ambition. I find I might be just as happy with a consensus, if there is no better reference to be offered. After all, I am necessarily commander-in-chief of my own fantasy, and if I deem a ship with no guns at all to be of the first rate, who’s to argue? For consideration, here is a “teaser” of the vessel in question.

All I'll say right now is, I found some bricks (insert evil laugh here)

that's just aw some! thanks for sharing :)

Something I have never quite been sure of, and to which have never yet found a definitive answer is: Do chasers count when considering a ship’s rating, or do only the guns of the broad side matter? The best I can figure is that it’s more of a case-to-case basis, some ships being rounded up to even numbers while others are left in lesser classes for the slight advantage they may gain by the omission. I wonder if the community here can offer some insight, particularly as my immediate interest pertains to a MOC I hope to reveal very soon.

Just a quick update: I found some time before work to improve my sloop just a bit. I made those rather modern looking windows I used look more period by cutting some very thin strips of yellow wire tape, and sticking it right to the pane. Before After From the Side

Wow, I was pretty hard there, and I apologize for that, but my point is still valid. This sort of speculation can be an interesting distraction, but any time you’re playing with history it’s best to have all the facts worked out ahead of time. I suppose my initial attitude was brought on by the though “this doesn’t belong here”. Though I don’t wish to over step the bounds of my station, this seems it would be more at home in the historic forum, since it seems to have nothing to do with pirates. Again, sorry to be so harsh.

Your entire concept is dubious at best. In what year did you set this? What subdivisions of either army are involved? Who is in command? Where does the battle take place? In actuality the conflict between the old and new played out in 19th century Japan between the samurai and the new imperial army. The army won hands down. Proven technology and tactics of a superior nature took the samurai and their code of honor by storm. Because the samurai would not resort to guerrilla tactics, and though they had but out of date fire arms (the use of which they deemed less honorable) they lost their nation and became little more than show ponies. It’s a tragic story, but history if full of modern forces destroying indigenous, tribal cultures, by their own failure to adapt.

I kind of like “HMS Athena”, and though I’m a huge Patrick Obrien fan, I think we have enough "Surprises", IMHO. Excellent all around, I love to see the constant improvement, the progress of the build and the decisions you’re making. I can’t offer much constructive criticism, but to suggest continued refinement, which already seems to be your plan and to agree with the good Admiral. One trick I came up for my MOCs, lacking round brick for masts was to use barrels with technic axles down the middle and string rigging for stability. Keep up the good work, and thanks for sharing!

Which pictures? These were all resized at the source. I’ve been making copies at 800X600 or less to just post here. Thank you, for the kind comments. I have high hopes to be able to build one of my LDD designs in the future, but at the moment just don’t have the money or, somewhat more importantly, the space to pull it off. “Snake” is already in constant danger of being knocked over and if this sloop were only a few inches taller, would be in the same predicament. For the present a fleet of small vessels will serve me better than any one large ship. besides once I get them all ready for sea I could set myself up as a Commodore

If you make two yards from 1X1 round bricks, you could lash then together like in the picture, and if you use wire down the middle rather than a ridged pole you can make them bend as if under their own weight or the stress of the sails in the wind. I also think it’ll make them closer to scale.