firefabric

Thank you for the compliments, I feel like it's too much but I'm really happy to hear you had a good time with it! It was definitely quite a long project in terms of designing everything, the shape especially was fine-tuned many times over before I was happy with how the different areas come together. And as you know, any small fine-tuning usually leads to a full rebuild more or less, including recreating the internal connections... But that's also part of the fun, at least if it works out somehow :) Thanks, much appreciated! I've had some ideas but nothing concrete so far. Usually my inspiration comes from Back to the Future -themed things, but I do like the Ghostbusters and Batman vehicles especially, so at some point there will probably be at least attempts :) Thanks!

Finished also the convertible version of the '59 Cadillac recently, this was a much simpler build as most of the work was already done with the Ecto-1. Naturally I had to change a few things here and there and I made it a bit shorter to match the real car. It's still really big in comparison to 'normal' sized Speed Champions cars but that's how it's in reality as well. Due to using a few fairly new parts and color variations, there was not too much choice for color so ended up making it black, which I think actually looks pretty good with the maroon (dark red) interior. There's also a detachable 'convertible' roof: More information can be found on Rebrickable: https://rebrickable.com/mocs/MOC-175134/firefabric/1959-cadillac-convertible/

What anyone says is of course from their point of view. I can see people who create MOCs and have had something like this happen mostly understand where this is coming from, whether it's finally warranted or not. But I appreciate both points of view, and that's the original topic of this discussion. Like I said, I accept that we feel what we feel and I will leave it at that, and the issues itself is dealt with. To put a more positive spin on things, something good also came out of this. I have also been working on changes and updates to my version in the past couple of years, and this inspired me to finish them...

Thank you also for a good and balanced write-up of your experience. I can quite easily relate, up to getting the similar comments. I did expect to get them but I still wanted to have the discussion to see how different people in the community actually feel about this. And I can see it's quite related to anyone's point of view, whether they are MOC creators or builders and if they have faced something like this themselves.

This thread was not directed to you specifically, I wanted to have a more general idea on what's going on because I felt the way I felt. You have chosen to deny any kind of influence whatsoever, so there would not have been much to discuss anyway. I also disagree with that, but that's sometimes an acceptable solution and I consider the case closed.

Well, I have to say that was an interesting read, thanks for posting those 2+ cents. It definitely gives a wider perspective and I understand the point better. I can also see you know X-wings throughout, you should probably make this into a blog post somewhere, lots of great information. I thought I was quite well versed in DeLorean/Time Machine but seems I have some more studying to do... >>>> As, for example, you didn't research or credit prior builders with similar solutions in your Delorean, or I suppose in your Knight Rider car or other creations. <<<< The way my build process goes is that first I try to think of ways to implement some key aspects of the subject, and try to specifically not look at any other versions, at least in detail, so that I don't get my mind locked into any existing solution. If I come up with something I think would work, at some point I will check out what's been done and evaluate if I have enough new ideas to add to the subject. If yes, I'll go ahead and build, if not, it goes into the back burner to wait for better ideas. But in any case, obviously my builds will also end up having some similarities to existing ones, just as others to mine, that's just how it is in Lego (as we have discussed here). In general, I do not expect any credit (I have never thought to ask for, even in this case I didn't) or feel the need to credit others if there are some similarities (as you have also pointed out it's normal). But I do do the research also, maybe I didn't state that anywhere clearly so far.

I can agree to most of this, and it's a reasonable way of thinking, I have considered this aspect too. And I do appreciate the compliment to my build also of course. Just wanted to clarify a couple of things. >>>> He objects to the Barneius build because, even though it may have a different structure and different details, it "achieves the same result".<<<< This is something I said in the context of the 'same shell with different structure' example, and I specified I'm not saying that was done here. Just what could have been done, as an extreme example. >>>> Nevertheless, I think it's striking that the only Delorean that Firefabric has singled out for criticism is the one that he thinks looks just as good as his own. He has said, more or less, in the page and comments for his build, that his own build is the first one that he thinks really looks good, or really looks like the real thing.<<<< It is of course because it was the one that looked too similar to my eye (good or not), the others I had no issues with. That was the whole point but no need to get back to that. And I have never said anywhere mine looks better than any other one, that is an incorrect interpretation, I hope you see that. If you read my description, I have made attemps to build it before, and this was the first one out of my builds that I liked enough to share. When I published it, I had no clue how it would actually be received. Also, elsewhere I have stated that I don't think any small-scale Lego DeLorean actually really still looks right, not mine or others, it's a difficult subject in Lego. If we go a bit further with this thought process (in theory), what happens if/when we achieve the ultimate/optimal DeLorean or X-wing or anything else, where it's as close as it can be with these bricks. Should we then stop making that subject altogethe as it'll be exactly the same I.e it will always be a copy. Is that ok to do the exact same one then on the grounds that it can't be improved anymore? This is more of a thought experiment as I don't think we are anywhere near yet. Maybe the X-wing might be the best example of that tho.

Sure, and as I said earlier I haven't asked for credit or copyright or any 'first use' etc, and I have also stated I understand that there are normal similarities between builds, mine and others, done before and after. The issue was different and quite frankly I had no expectations of the outcome, just wanted to state my opinion.

This was of course discussed already but it's true, and it would affect probably 90% or more of builds on RB. It's not just movies or games. It's car brands, even some buildings etc etc.

Then why are all the other DeLoreans so different that the thought of them being somehow too similar didn't even cross my mind in the slightest ever before...

Well, I really can't understand how you can say they are entirely different? That's obviously not the case. If they were, why would I have asked RB for an opinion (and btw, I didn't even ask it to be taken down, this was the first time I even considered anything like this so I asked them for advice). This is your opinion and I'm sorry that I don't agree.

You at least seem to think I'm wrong if I'm not mistaken.... I have pointed out all the similarities many times so not copying it here again, but for example if you look at the rear quarter view especially, that's almost identical (not considering certain details of course). Anyway, the point of the whole discussion has been where's the line of too many similarities. I feel in this case there were too many, and you don't think so. And you may be right, I'm not sure. And once more, no need to ask me to relax, italics or not. This is a discussion, I have my opinion and you have yours, we can talk about it but we don't have to agree in everything. And the matter is anyway officially closed, we are just going about it for the sake of it. No need to get worked up. >>>> In that case, we may as well shut down MOC building entirely. If asserting a vague sense of "looking too similar" is enough to get you to file a complaint with Rebrickable and make a long blog post about it, then the first builder to make a recognizable model of any particular object has rights to that object in perpetuity and nobody else can ever build it ever again. I hope that's sarcasm btw...

>>>> At the bottom of the car body, on either side Barneius uses cheese slopes with studs left and studs right to create a 6-stud-long area that slopes inward. Firefabric's model has studs-up plate stacking in that area with no attempt to model that nuance of the source material. These differing details point to major structural differences in the way the bottom of the car chassis is built. Mine has a half-stud inset on the bottom plate to create an inward 'nuance', as well as wedge plates in the corners to bulge them up towards the wheel wells. So there is an attempt... I did have a development version trying out the exact same slope as Barneius, but somehow it didn't suit the overall look in my eye. In his it looks fine though.

That's quite an analysis. I do agree to many of the things even if you are going into it a bit biased, mainly trying to prove me wrong. On the similarities side you mostly ask 'is that so relevant' etc to dismiss the similarity, on the differences side you point out every small thing to prove the point. But yes I agree to most of it, and I'll tell you why: I would like to make one thing clear, and you can verify this from the other party if you wish. I have not claimed any copyright or even asked credit for any specific parts, not the tail lights, not the rear vents, nothing. I have only said I feel the build is too similar design-wise, and having too many similar and (almost) identical details, makes them look too similar. The other party came up with the credit about the tail lights and the vents by himself as those things are the most obvious similarities, I didn't ask for it. And yes, obviously there are details in mine that can also be found in other builds, I have never said otherwise and never claimed any details 'for myself'. >>>> You see, it really bothers me when someone gets suspected of copying, stealing, or plagiarizing someone else's work, without grounds. Whether there are grounds or not, it is again a matter of opinion. I keep repeating this because many commenters seem to offer their opinion as the truth.

Well, I don't think it should matter who it is, but yes I can honestly agree that he is one of the best creators in that space and I have always liked his MOCs, and I have expressed that in our conversation as well. But that's also partly why I was so surprised at first when I saw his DeLorean, I thought why would he need to release something so close to mine, as his stuff is usually very original and on point. If it really is unintentional, I accept but I just thought there were so many similarities and identical things, that it was not likely given that there have been 2 years in between, and there are so many other DeLorean MOCs out there which are nowhere near this close. But ya, it's again a matter of opinion and anyway this discussion was not about who it was. Yes I would have felt differently if the releases were say a few weeks apart, then it's most likely a coincidence, that happens often when for example some new part gives the inspiration, as you said. Not saying it can't be like that now, but the odds in general would turn the other way given the time span. Btw if you look at all the DeLoreans on RB, most of them look very different to each other, so there is actually a lot of variation. And I have moved on, it's not about that, I published another MOC myself also after this thing already. I'm responding to the discussion because it's interesting, and some of it is quite constructive, like your X-wing reference.

Yes that would be true if that was the case. But that's not the other person's perspective in this case, he was well aware of my design, had seen it already when it came out almost 2 years ago. So far I have had only positive things to say about anyone else's MOCs (including his earlier designs), whether they were DeLoreans or anything else, so I'm not exactly going around calling out people for their designs.

From whom I am taking the fun out of now, can you clarify? In this case the other party is one of the main creators on RB with lots of followers etc, so it's not their first foray into putting MOCs on Rebrickable. And if you call me stating my opinion (strongly yes, but with no disrespect) harassment, we have a different definition for that. Should I have just stayed silent and said nothing then? And anyway you are making the assumption here that the other party did everything innocently and I'm complaining without any reason. Are you sure about that? If not, please refrain. Like I said, there are some who agree with me (mostly other creators who can understand the situation from my point of view), and some who disagree, and I accept both views. But I won't accept blame without facts.

Unfortunately yes, but there are at least some measures taken against it by RB and I can claim some kind of a copyright against a 100% copy. But I do wonder if it's really profitable even for them... maybe if they have enough variety it becomes worthwhile.

This is pretty much exactly how I think also. As I have said, I don't consider RB a business for me, I only add stuff there when I happen to finish something so there are no timetables to meet etc. If someone likes it, I'm happy, if not, it's ok. But as mentioned, I do prefer the small fee nowadays there. If I were to put something out completely for free, it would be much easier for the scoundrels to just take it for profit and run.

Thanks for the pointer, I looked up both X-wings and if I found the correct ones, it's an interesting comparison. X-wing is similarly a very popular subject so there will be more models made. As I'm not so familiar with the X-wing, I can probably look at them with similar eye as someone who hasn't studied the DeLorean in every possible detail. I can see that they look similar (which is natural), have some identical details (main engine inlets for example) but also many details are created with different parts. So I can see what you mean, it would be quite a similar comparison. I'm relaxed, and I'm not taking any more actions about it. But it's an interesting topic to discuss. One thing I would like point out (and this is not exactly what happened in my case, or probably in the X-wing case), in general I don't think the parts list comparison is a deciding factor, as it's possible to create the same 'shell' by looking at pictures and then make a completely different structure inside, and use similar parts (not same) for details. So I'd say you can easily find 80% different parts for a build that looks very similar outside. Obviously the comparison will tell if it's a copy, but not much more. So if I made an X-wing just by looking at the pictures, and managed to make it look more or less the same but with mostly different parts list, would that still be categorized as a different MOC if I published it? I think I might still also get a call from Brick Vault...

I actually like that way, and I was wondering in the beginning why RB doesn't give that option directly. Later I have realized it's probably because of piracy prevention (chinese copies) and that's one major reason why I also went with the regular fee system. >>>> But if i buy something, why would i have to thank the seller? I guess that depends on your experience, if you got a good deal and were happy with what you got, why not... this is a slightly different transaction, people on RB are selling their own creations that they spent considerable effort on themselves, not reselling some random stuff for profit (like eBay etc).

It's a matter of opinion whether this was ok or not, I have my opinion and I have asked for other's opinions and I'm happy to get them. It may not change mine but gives some perspective so I do appreciate the input. And there have been also others agreeing with me, so it's literally a matter of opinion in the end. I'm not sure what do you mean by drama on RB, yes there is also a discussion where I directly pointed out my view on the issue. I usually try to be positive about hobby stuff, but this was the first occasion where I really didn't feel like just exchanging pleasantries. If you feel that was out of line, ok. Regarding the copy comment, that is clear and that is covered many times in this thread so I'll just say that you are correct in your examples, that's how it should go in general. But I'm not trying claim any copyright or anything like that, this i have clarified many times here and there. Maybe if the other party would have accepted to admit some level of 'inspiration taken', I could have felt differently. Maybe then the RB discussion would have been more positive also.

Ya I suppose you are correct about the charging aspect, I just never thought so far that putting instructions on RB is 'sales', I have been thinking about it more as sharing with a small 'thanks' compensation. Not just for me but everyone else too, that's the way I understood the whole idea of Rebrickable. But that has probably changed, and I guess it's ok in general. What I mean is, this sort of thing takes some (not all) fun out of the hobby for me, as it becomes more business-like. Yes it was determined it was not a copy, which I actually stated myself to RB as well, but it was not a clear call for them either as I understood. As I said many times, I accept their decision but it doesn't change my opinion that it was wrong in my books, and I feel not exactly honest competition. I'm not just implying that, I'm stating it clearly. But ya both are there now and I'm still happy about my design and the response it has gotten, that didn't change.

Yes that is the key, when it's honest competition there's no problem, I don't have any problem even if one makes it into their job or does it for a little extra as long as it's done in good taste (there are of course different opinions what that means). This is again a bit beyond-topic and I'm not sure about the other party's motives in this particular case, but this sort of thing will take some fun out of the hobby. Must be like that for him also, he was not happy about it either and chose to basically deny everything. I could have stayed silent and let it be, but for me the issue was too obvious to just dismiss.

I'd like to think that's the way most MOC creators on RB think, make it for your own enjoyment and then if it turns out good, maybe make instructions and share it. But I can see there are nowadays some who are pushing so many designs all the time on Rebrickable that it must be their job. They need to come up with something that sells all the time and may resort to questionable methods to keep it up. I don't think that's what happened in my case, but with more people trying to actually make money off of the instructions, it will lead into competition for sales and these things will happen more. I hope RB will be able to manage that.