hoeij

You can see in the tables that under a high load (0.85 N.cm) the motor is pulling about 0.37 amps. Note that with this much torque, the wheels will definitely be slipping unless you replace the rubber bands by different ones with more traction. Although the AA batteries can crank out more amps than the AAA batteries, the AAA batteries can crank out more than 1 amp, i.e. more than 3 times what the motor will actually use when it is under a high load. The AA vs AAA batteries makes no difference in pulling power (it only affects how many hours the train can run). Considering that the new motor is so much stronger than the previous one, you could pull a nice long train if you replace the rubber bands by new ones with more traction. If you can improve traction, then one PF train motor will pull as much as two RC train motors, and do so while using much less current.

The new train motor was advertised as using less electricity than the RC motor.

A few comments here, running several trains on the same loop is actually not easy to do with PF unless you also have several people controlling the trains. At the local train show a few months ago I had 3 loops, a 12V with typically 2 trains running on it, a 9V loop with typically 3 trains running simultaneously on it, and another loop with 1 PF train (the Emerald Night) running on it. Occasionally I had to shut down the AC power to prevent a collision (the remote-control button to turn off the AC power was within hand reach at all times). I was running this layout by myself. If all running trains were PF trains, then that would have been very difficult to run several trains on the same track, unless I had more people to hold the PF controllers. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that yes, with PF you have more options if you want to run multiple trains on the same track, however, if you don't also have an additional set of eyes and hands, running more than 2 trains is actually not so easy to do in practice, and might actually be harder than it is in 9V. The other issue: how long do the 9V motors last, and will they remain available? That's the topic of the first post in this thread. The 9V motors are not as robust as the 12V motors. They do break (= problem), and they don't make them anymore (= problem). Still, there are lots of 9V systems out there that will eventually end up on eBay, most of which have a 9V motor that has seen little use. Since most people will be buying PF trains, there is a good chance that the supply of 9V motors will be sufficient for a long time.

How much would it cost per track if you wanted to acquire a large number of track pieces this way? PS. For the debate, about which system is better, clearly in each system there are certain things that you can do that don't work so well in the other system. It's interesting though that only a few years ago, the end of 9V was viewed as the end of the world (e.g. the "save 9V website") whereas now, only a short time later, we're seeing several voices that the new system is better.... Clearly the end of 9V is not exactly the end of the world after all. I enjoy my lego trains (12V, PF, and lots of 9V), and I think that things like motors will remain available for a long time on eBay and bricklink at reasonable prices, but, as a precaution, I did buy a number of spare 9V motors just in case my prediction turns out wrong.

This train looks very similar to some of the regional trains in Germany (including the weird tall windows). Whether or not those trains look good is a matter of taste.

One more question: If you lift the wheels off the ground so they can spin freely, do the wheels turn smoothly then? Or is it still rough? Which of the solutions have you tried so far? Taking the rubber traction rings off the front driving wheels helps make it go smoother through curves/switches, but it should already be able to go through curves/switches without doing that.

Perhaps you can take some video of it? Is it still bumpy without the cylinders?

Why no active switching? It's kind of fun to have one train go into a siding and make another one run. That way, you can overhear kids say "look mommy, that one started moving!". Do the tracks get damaged during assembly/disassembly of the track, or during transport? It's hard to understand how the entire metal rail can come off by accident. I've taken some off to build 1/2-length 9V track, and they don't want to come off until all the clips that hold them are bent down.

Did you try the various fixes? Have the wheels angled at 90 degrees with respect to each other? There is a helpful overview of problems/solutions on: http://www.brickset.com/reviews/?set=10194-1 (scroll down to the review by David in New Zealand on 02 February 2010).

At our local train show this year, I had a layout with 12V track and 9V track. Electricity was applied to 4 places on the 9V track. Much harder to set up was the 12V track. There were five remote controlled switches, some of them 10 feet away (lots of wire to tie underneath the tables). In addition there were three places where the 12V trains could stop, those have power-interrupter rails and then separate wiring so that a stopped train there can start again. As I was struggling to set everything up on time (actually, I ran out of time, a few buildings/trains stayed in the box) and doing all this wiring, I looked with envy at the layout next to me, a live-steam layout. They had no electrical wires at all! While it's great that 12V had remote-controlled switches, there is certainly something to be said for having 9V (or RC) switches that are remotely operated through the power functions, with electricity locally supplied from a battery box. You have to hide this battery box somewhere, but you're not running 10+ feet cables under the tables. Does this only happen in switch-track or in regular track too? I've had to repair electrical connections in about 5 or 6 9V switches, and a few 12V switches too, but I've never seen a bad connection in straight/curved 9V track pieces. If you set up a large 9V track, you definitely need a multimeter so you can find the problem quickly. As you build the track, you short it at the power supplies (power supplies off of course) and every once in a while, measure if the electrical resistance is small. This way the problem is located in less than a minute.

Without stickers I don't know how to make this: (a minor modification of 10183 hobby train).

According to bricklink (catalog item 55423), the wheels on the PF-motor are the same as on the RC-motor, so the traction should be equal. Does it change things if you swap the wheels between the RC-motor and the PF-motor?

The answers to 1 and 2 is no (unless you make some drastic changes to it). Why not simply put 6 rechargeable batteries in the 7898 train? It runs pretty long on that.

The RC motor that you can buy through S@H is the same one as the one that's in the previous RC trains. I have not compared traction, but the torque of the new PF motors is much larger, I estimate more than double, the torque of the motors in the previous RC trains (on the outside, these motors look quite similar except that the new one has a cable attached to it. But inside, the new one is much better). The wobbling, I assume that happens on the flex track? Or does it happen on regular track too?

Thanks for the info (I would not dare to put so much current through my motors, so I would have never measured this myself..). Yes, the 12V controller is very heavy. And it's not regulated, which means that I have to be careful when I make one train stop at a siding (I made the interrupter rails myself) because when one train stops, the other train(s) on the track will go faster because the reduced load on the controller makes it produce a higher voltage. The 9V trains don't have this problem because the controllers are regulated so the voltage doesn't go up when one of the trains stops. In the only video footage I have of my layout at our train show, I see my cargo train on the 12V track running quite fast. I think this footage must have been taken when I just stopped one train and forgot to adjust the speed setting. I've been wondering, with multiple trains on the same 12V track, is it a good idea to connect a large capacitor to the track (I did that) to smooth out voltage bumps that each motor might send to the track? Or would that take away some of the extra torque that you mentioned? Today I tried out the new PF train motor, and the torque on the axles feels to me twice as much as the previous RC train motor. I have not yet compared with 9V but I certainly suspect that if you need three 9V motors, then two of the new PF motors will suffice, making life much easier because then one loco can pull the whole thing. I'd be quite comfortable putting a significant load on the new PF train motors. Although my torque test was simplistic, it did make me think that these are good motors (I'd still check to see if they get too warm, of course!). And if two PF motors were to be insufficient, and you had to put a third one in loco #2, wouldn't that still be doable with just one power functions receiver (and one battery box)? How much current can the receiver supply, and how much does one PF train motor consume under significant load?

As I'm sure you know, the PF receiver in the Emerald Night has a serious aesthetic problem. It sits one plate too high, and you can see the light-gray of the PF receiver sticking out above the Emerald green of the boiler of the locomotive. It doesn't look right, and it's hard imagine that this was the original design for the PF version of EN. The problem is that there needs to be some space to run a cable underneath the PF receiver to the lights in the front. The cable should not touch the gear you find below the PF receiver. My guess is that the lights in the front were added as an afterthought, after the locomotive and its gears had already been designed, and that this afterthought caused the PF receiver to be placed one plate higher. One obvious solution is to simply not bother with the front lights, I'd say that's preferable over the current setup where the light-gray of the receiver sticks out above the Emerald green. However, it turns out you can have both. You can lower the PF receiver by one plate. Replace two 3x1 black plates by 2x1 black plates, remove the two 4x1 green tiles under the receiver, use one to fill up the one stud that was in front of the receiver, take out the 2x2 tile underneath the receiver and replace it by the other 4x1 green tile (so that the cord can't sit in the middle, but has to be on the side, sitting on top of a stud, which is just enough to keep it away from the gear), and take out a few green cheese-bricks too. This way, the power cord for the lights gets very close to that gear, but it does not actually touch it. I verified that by removing the PF motor and the pistons mechanism, and check that what's left turns smoothly without any additional friction from the cord. Doing this makes the EN+PF look *much* better. Looking at it now I am convinced that this must have been the original design of the EN+PF, because it looks perfectly designed, the green 1x4 tiles on top of the PF receiver are at exactly the right height, and what little bit of the PF receiver that otherwise would have been visible is perfectly covered up by the tubing that's in front of it. Wonderful design. Should never have been messed up by what I'm sure is a last minute decision to raise the PF receiver by one plate to make extra room for the cord to the lights. But, you don't need this extra room, and you can restore your EN+PF to its wonderful glory that it was meant to be!

The first one, with the large wheels attached to an RC train motor, once you get that train to move it will go way too fast.

Indeed, for longer 9V trains, the motor works very well at high speed but seems to struggle at lower speeds. That's why at the train show I use speed setting #4 (i.e. 6.5 volts) for the 9V trains. At that setting they don't fly out of the curves but they nevertheless go quite fast at that setting, and this seems to be easier on the motors. The 12V motor, on the other hand, works well at slow speeds, it does not seem to struggle when you slow a train down. For slow trains I much prefer the 12V motor, for fast trains I like the 9V motor better (the 9V motor also sounds like a high-speed train). I have not measured what my 9V motors are using, but my 12V motors typically use 250mA (goes up to almost 300mA in the curves, drops to about 200mA on the straights). It seems reasonable that the 12V motors use more than 9V motors because they are a good bit larger than the 9V motors (not the box, that's the same size, but the DC motor inside). I felt the need to treat some of my built-it-yourself wheelsets as well. Some of these wheelsets don't rub until some weight is put on them (they might go undetected in the test you mentioned). I roll them over a smooth surface, while pressing down on them to mimic the weight, and then listen for rubbing sounds and feeling if they move easily or not. Heavier cars do need the treatment much sooner than light-weight cars. My Santa Fe cars, and metroliner club car, all bought used, were simply unpullable without treatment of the wheelsets. Lighter cars take much longer before the rubbing friction develops. I use a sharp Stanley knife to make a small cut where the wheel would otherwise be rubbing.

It's in the mail now, it'll probably get there by the middle or the end of next week. Let us know if it works, and if the 4WD provides enough traction for your trains. The reason I have a spare gear/axle is because I burned out a 9V motor. I took a used 9V motor that was already close to the end of its lifetime. I then decided to use it to pull a long train (putting extra weight on the motor for extra traction...). This burned out the DC motor inside the 9V motor very quickly. If an electrical motor is made to pull a heavy load, then it will use a lot of current (as in amps, not volts). In a perfect motor, amps is proportional to torque, and volts is proportional to rpm's. Of course, our motors are not perfect, but it's still true that the force that the motor has to pull (but not the speed) determines amperage. If you go over a certain threshold amperage, then that will burn off the brushes that touch the commutator. In this case, driving that train slowly does not improve the lifetime of the motor because the amperage depends on the load and not on the speed. The load on the motor depends on the weight of the train, the type of wheelsets, and on whether you're going through a curve or through straight track. Even though in a 9V train motor you can't see the brushes when you open up the box, I could still see that the brushes were worn out because the DC motor in that 9V motor lights up when you put electricity on it (it lights up because of the sparks made by the worn out brushes inside the DC motor). That's a sure sign that that DC motor is toast, there's no point in putting it back, that's why I had that spare gear/axle. To prevent a repeat I've decided not to weigh down any 9V motors anymore, if the wheels slip, it's an indication that the load is too much, a signal that I might be putting enough current on the motor to burn off the brushes. A drastic reduction on the load of the motor can be done by replacing 12V wheelsets by 9V wheelsets, and fixing the manufacturing defect that most 9V wheelsets have (see the end of page 51 in railbricks issue #2. I've done that procedure with hundreds of 9V wheelsets, a lot of work, but you do what you have to do to keep these motors alive because they don't make them anymore).

I would decorate that 12V motor a bit. The hole where the third wheels go, you can fit a stud in there. I didn't have enough "third wheels" for each of my 12V motors, so here's how I covered up that opening: Here is the rest of that train (10183) Oversized image removed by moderator. Image Link

First question, I would not use the weightblocks because it means more work for the motor. Are you using the wheelsets from the 12V system? Those have a huge amount of friction, you'll reduce the load on the motor in half if you sell the 12V wheelsets on bricklink and replace them by 9V wheelsets. Second question, yes, I have that gear. You mean: not the gear that sits on the DC motor, and not the one that's on the axle that has the train wheels, but the one that sits in between, right? Took a bit of searching, but I have one that I can mail to you. It is of no value to me. Just e-mail me (hoeij@math.fsu.edu) the address.

If you have the motor from those trains, then to connect it to the new power functions (battery box, remote control) you'll need this cable: lego item 8886 Extension wire. It fits on both the old 9V connections, as well as on the new ones used by the power functions items. So apart from that motor, you'll need 8886 cable, a battery box (8878 is the easiest to hide in a train because it's the smallest one). That will get the train to move, but if you want to be able to control the train, you'll also need item 8884 and 8879. In any case, the instructions for the new trains should tell you exactly how to do it, except if you have the motor from 7897/7898 then in addition to what you see in the instructions, you'll need cable 8886 as well.

There are some pictures in a file 99_train_motor_history.pdf A google search for "A brief lego motor history" will find it. The picture of the open 12V motor in there is not very clear. I can make clearer pictures if you like. I was considering writing some tips/tricks for 12V (e.g. how to repair a bent 12V insert, how to make interrupter rails, etc.). Anyone interested in helping out with that? I've bought 9 motors, 3 of them were running well, the others ranged from a little slower than the best ones, to a lot slower. I opened up 5 of them, and one is still left to-do. Success rate so far is 5 out of 5, they are all running well. I hope you have not thrown away any of the bad motors (if a motor is really unfixable, which it certainly can be, some of its parts may still be of use to repair other motors). Can I buy some of these motors to give it a try? I have not done this as long as you have. It might be that I can't repair any of them and I end up losing some money, but I'm OK with that. Perhaps the ones I've fixed so far were relatively easy ones. Still, I'd like to see if the four non-working motors can somehow be recombined into one or more working ones. One more thing, how many volts does it take for your motor to start moving? (motor with no train attached). A well lubricated motor should move (very slowly of course) with as little as 2 volts on the track.

You can also go to the lego costumer service website, where you can download instructions for lego sets. Download the instructions of 7938 or of 7939. There you can see how to use the power functions train motor. The same should also work for the passenger car of the holiday train.

The train base plates (e.g. the base of the passenger car in the holiday train set) has three holes in the front, and three in the back. The pin of the motor can go in there. Then closer to the middle of the base plate there are two larger openings, these are there so you can run an electric cable between the motor and something else (a light in the 9V system, or the electrical power supply for the RC system).