Shooting vs Non-Shooting Cannons? Red vs Brown Captain Red Beard Heads? Treasure Chests with/without Slots in the Back? And more....

[kelceycoe]

Is there a "code" to cracking the black handle vs the cross-canon symbol on non-shooting cannons here in the US?

 

I remember owning Black Seas Barracuda, Forbidden Island and the Fort Eldorado in 1989 (I was 5). They all came with shooting canons. But in 1990 I was certain my Shipwreck Island came with the black handle cannon and Sabre Island had the new non-shooter with the logo resembling the Imperial's crossed cannon logo.

 

Does anyone remember what their sets had and about when you bought/got them?

For example:

• Almost all of the sets released in 1989 had the shooting cannons here in the US and throughout North America.
• Sometime end of 1989 into the beginning of early 1990s we get a black handled cannon that has been disabled (it could technically still shoot if you flick it but that wasn't its intention). II am guessing the third production batch had these since I got my Black Seas Barracuda in October 1989, likely Forbidden Island then too, and my Fort Eldorado at Christmas 1989 (it was likely bought early since I think my aunt/grandma bought it for me) and from the pics I had it looked like the cannon was normal.
• Also, sometime before September 1989 the flags were stickers. Does anyone remember how long the sets had stickers because I never had flags with stickers yet my cannons were still the shooting variation. Or were the stickers dependent in another country?

 

I am unsure when I got Shipwreck Island and Sabre Island. But I recall a black handle with a brown cannon holder so I think my Shipwreck Island had my black handle and my Sabre Island came with the cross-cannon non-shooting cannon (which would make perfect since as the Imperials logo is the crossed cannons).

 

All I know, based on the Lego catalogs / minisheets for 1989 and 1990 and the Sears Holiday Wish Book, here in the United States we only had the 4 main sets available to us before all the smaller sets came in 1990.

 

I do know and gathered it from reading here on the forums, Captain Ironhook had both Captain Red Beard's red head and his own brown head: When he had a pegleg he had red hair but in sets he actually had legs he had brown hair.

Personally I always thought Captain Ironhook was a shipwreck version of Red Beard. I guess I never read the boxes as I thought it was a money grab to entice us to buy more Pirates since we were thinking we were getting more Red Beard toys.

 

Do we know why/when the treasure chests were changed from no slots in the back to having slots in the back?

 

I recently rebuilt my vintage Lego collection from 1980s into the early 2000s and I ran into so many interesting things.

 

Did you know the dark gray 1x8 flat plates in the Pier Police set from 1991 had solid studs on the bottom? That was my only set with those solid studs on the bottom.

 

I am also trying to figure out which 3 brown 1x8 studs had a common hollow stud as there were two variations of hollow studs on these parts before they became solid in the later 2000s.

 

I only have the Legoland 3D Witch to compare with all the Western sets so hopefully that mystery will be even easier to solve.

[DonQuixote]

All canons were the shooting ones in Europe. And that's funny because you can easily buy a real gun in the US. 

And all flags were printed. 

The pirate captain always had red hair. Can't remember a brown one. But I only got the complete 1989-1991 wave. 

[AViewToALego]

There were also sets like the 1723 Castle/Pirate Combo Value Pack that included the 1795-1 Imperial Cannon. These were only released in North America, so the cannon was always non-shooting, as seen on the cover art.

[kelceycoe]

10 hours ago, DonQuixote said:

All canons were the shooting ones in Europe. And that's funny because you can easily buy a real gun in the US. 

And all flags were printed. 

The pirate captain always had red hair. Can't remember a brown one. But I only got the complete 1989-1991 wave. 

I asked about the flags with stickers because Bricklink lists them so I a uncertain why they even existed.

Captain Ironhook came after the 1989-1991 wave so yes if you didn't follow the Pirates theme after you'd miss him.

Captain Iron hook appears in 9 sets (if you count the reissues) based on his torso design: https://www.bricklink.com/catalogItemIn.asp?P=973p3ac01&in=S

I am only counting the baseline 7 sets in my list below, marking * in sets where he has both legs and brown hair and ** in sets where he has a pegleg and red hair.
6261-1 Raft Raiders*
6264-1 Forbidden Cove **
6268-1 Renegade Runner *
6278-1 Enchanted Island **
6289-1 Red Beard Runner * (He wears the tricorne hat too)
1788-1 Pirate Treasure Chest **
1873-1 Pirate Treasure *

But with only 5 variations: https://www.bricklink.com/catalogItemIn.asp?P=973p3ac01&in=M

It gets confusing because in the earlier sets he has both legs then he jumps back and forth between a pegleg and both legs for no reason given so I always thought it was sloppy overall on Lego's part and just a way to satisfy Pirates fans.

I also noticed Captain Red Beard never set foot on any of the Islanders sets (he was never included in an Islander set is what I mean) and battled exclusively the Imperial Guards (red coats). When a Pirate Captain is seen on these sets it is Captain Iron Hook.

3 hours ago, AViewToALego said:

There were also sets like the 1723 Castle/Pirate Combo Value Pack that included the 1795-1 Imperial Cannon. These were only released in North America, so the cannon was always non-shooting, as seen on the cover art.

Yes! By 1991 all sets in the US (maybe North America) had non-shooting cannons, the cross-cannon variation. Basically what I am trying to get at is the time frame we had the black handle and the time frame they started the official non-shooting variation that lasted for years.

[Mister Phes]

Shooting versus non-shooting cannons - an age old topic!

There are a few previous topics on this matter which may (or may not) yield useful information:

• Why were cannons in the USA non-shooting?
• Shooting and Non-Shooting Cannons...What you Have!?
• New Cannons' Ranges

 

[TalonCard]

I'm not sure exactly when the treasure chest design was changed from slots to no slots; I do know that the old version had very small pips on the lid that had matching holes in the chest to allow it to open. With use the small pips can get worn down or misaligned, causing the lid to fall off easily. Later versions of the treasure chests have larger pips and holes to avoid this problem; I'm assuming the slots were included to allow the walls of the chest to flex outward slightly to accommodate the larger lid during assembly and use.

I'll have to check my Ironhook figures to see about the head situation, that's interesting...

Edited September 5 by TalonCard

[Slegengr]

I remember all of these variations, though I do not know for sure when the changes were made.

From what I remember reading and I think can be confirmed in databases, the original shooting cannons were included in the first release in 1989 but were shortly-after converted to the transitional black breech-pin cannons in North America (Maybe USA only) supposedly due to a lawsuit from an eye injury.  I think the single-piece cannon barrel was released in 1991-1992, but have not found specific confirmation of this date.  Since I was born in 1991 in USA, I only remember the single-piece cannons in the sets I got but I always wished for shooting cannons.  In the 2002 re-release of Fort Legoredo (set 6762), the shooting cannon was included in USA, and I always begged my older brothers that got the set to let me use the shooting function (though they did not want their younger brother to lose their cannonballs, so I did not get to shoot it often).  There is no question in my mind that the shooting function is preferable to children for the play value.  The inclusion of the touch hole on the single-piece mold does add some realism to the cannons, though, so I like both (or all 3, technically) versions.  When I started buying secondhand lots of old sets and acquiring shooting and transitional cannons, I did find out about LEGO's first flick-fire projectiles with the black transitional cannon...

For the Redbeard head, I am fairly certain that the pegleg version of "Captain Ironhook" is a shipwrecked Captain Redbeard and would include the red print on the head.  Captain Ironhook had dark red/brown hair and no pegleg as included in the Islanders sets.  Since LEGO rarely gave specific clarification during the 90's, I do not think it is clearly defined and is based on assumptions.

For the treasure chests, I think the change also came about around 1991/1992.  It is certainly an engineered update for functionality.  The original lids had smaller pips to receive in the indentations on the tabs of the chest, so were more prone to wear, causing the lids to misalign, flop loosely, or even fall off.  This is very common on the chests without the tabs from old collections.  Increasing the pip size for the hinge allows for better connection, but would likely stress the tabs during installation if the slots were not included.  The slots allow for stress relief by allowing the entire side of the chest to flex during installation rather than a shorter tab.  This spreading of stress keeps the plastic in "elastic" deformation so it returns to the original form.  Shorter tabs could result in stressed "plastic" deformation, which means the flex/bend is permanent rather than just temporary.

As to hollow or solid anti-studs on the bottom of plates and bricks, I have not found a definitive answer, though I commonly assume that solid was the case into the 90's where a transition to hollow began to happen.  Due to stocked inventory, the transition lasted for quite a while with a lot of overlap of solid and hollow anti-studs.  There are dark gray plates that have solid anti-studs but did not exist before 1996 (1x8 plate, for example), so it is still unclear when this transition happened.  I'm quite certain some of my childhood sets from the early 90's had hollow anti-studs.  I did not care enough make full distinction as a child, but I confirmed this long transitional time with a sealed Orient Expedition set 7413 from 2003 that had both hollow and solid anti-studs on the 1x4 black plates and the 1x6 red bricks.  Though I have been interested in this topic for a long time and sort original sets with as much consistency as possible to the assumed version, I have never found definitive information on these mold variations.  After about 2010, it becomes easier to confirm new mold variations, since there are small semi-circular marks on the flat bottom of the brick/plate from the mold, even though the anti-studs are mostly solid again on bricks (but hollow on plates), at least as far as I know off the top of my head.

[kelceycoe]

Basically I am looking for definitive answers or well-research responses. I often have read or heard about "safety concerns" but it was either "The Lego Book said this" or "I wrote a letter to Lego and they said this" or just fan assumptions.

This is a good response since the boy's death started it all.

https://www.eurobricks.com/forum/forums/topic/36623-why-were-cannons-in-the-usa-non-shooting/page/2/#comment-672449

Still, he went on a generalized rant claiming laws were passed in 1989 restricting projectiles. I researched this and found no such laws - the earliest thing were only voluntary standards established in 1985. Official choking warning labels didn't even go into effect until January 1, 1995. Clearly he did a great job as explaining how this all got started but ruined it with an ill-researched inference. He went on to first claim they were limited to a size to outright saying all the Transformers reissues came with modified or no firing mechanisms at all. However, there were other toys with projectiles:

• Kenner Rapid Fire Ecto-Blaster:
• . This toy weapon was part of Kenner's line for The Real Ghostbusters and was released in the spring of 1990. 
• G.I. Joe Overlord's Dictator:
• .
• This G.I. Joe vehicle, first released in 1990, featured rapid-fire machine guns and air-to-surface missiles. 
• Ghostbusters Vapor Ghost:
• .
• This toy from the Slimed Heroes line of 1990 was filled with ice water and could "slime" the Ray Stantz figure. 
• Mighty Max Playsets:
• .
• Playsets such as Blasts Magnus and Strikes Fang included missile-launching features. 

What he was talking about regarding Transformers is briefly covered in this Transformers wiki: 

https://tfwiki.net/wiki/For_safety_reasons#Choking_hazards

Obviously, this is still just a bunch of inferences mixed together to make a wiki.

So at this point I am looking for:

Lego-provided evidence for the removal of the shooting cannons here in the US

Specific dates or close to them indicating this change (this can only be verified by customers who kept their receipts - doubtful - or who have the set they received, original bricks and all, in an original box with a price sticker that may reflect the price of that set during a given and known time period).

And this same information for the "transitional/disabled" cannons and non-shooting cannons.

Peeron / Bricklink do not always appear to agree (I am also aware they claim all the Pirates set were released in 1989 - that is true for Europe and catalog customers in the US ). According to the US Medium Catalogs for 1989 and 1990, only four Pirate sets were sold to retailers (US customers could buy all the smaller sets through the 1989 shop at home catalogs) and all the smaller sets were marked as "New" in the 1990 medium catalog (and I think the 1990 minisheets).

Definitively, you are guaranteed at least a "disabled" black-handled cannon or disabled cannon in any of the smaller sets like Shipwreck Island, Sabre Island and Harbor's Sentry if you purchased them from a retailer (I am guessing shooting cannons were only available in these sets to SAH Catalog customers who purchased them for their "early August 1989 release in the US"). This likely happened within the first 6 months of 1990. Then after those sets and all previous sets were equipped with the cross-cannon non-shooting cannon. By the time 1991 rolled around, all new sets, and again this is only an inference, were guaranteed a non-shooting cannon.

This is probably the best I can write about this topic for now since its been almost 40 years since the original Pirates were released.

58 minutes ago, Slegengr said:

For the Redbeard head, I am fairly certain that the pegleg version of "Captain Ironhook" is a shipwrecked Captain Redbeard and would include the red print on the head.  Captain Ironhook had dark red/brown hair and no pegleg as included in the Islanders sets.  Since LEGO rarely gave specific clarification during the 90's, I do not think it is clearly defined and is based on assumptions.

 

Growing up and owning all of these toys I also assumed the bright red versions were just a shipwrecked Captain Red Beard. But after reading product descriptions from that time period it definitely changed my mind and added to the confusion. In my collection, for my narratives, (and based on the Japanese trailer for The Islanders), both Captains were rivals - Captain Ironhook once worked for Captain Red Beard but after being found guilty of mutiny (like in the Disney movie Treasure Island) he was ousted and became his own Captain with his own ship and crew. Captain Ironhook focused his attention on the Islanders (red Beard on the Imperials) and, after 1995's Treasure Chest set, was ultimately killed. We know - if we consider the newer Barracuda Bay set as canon- that the Islanders also met their fate and Captain Red Beard is the lone surviving Captain.

[Slegengr]

17 minutes ago, kelceycoe said:

Basically I am looking for definitive answers or well-research responses. I often have read or heard about "safety concerns" but it was either "The Lego Book said this" or "I wrote a letter to Lego and they said this" or just fan assumptions.

This is a good response since the boy's death started it all.

...

This is probably the best I can write about this topic for now since its been almost 40 years since the original Pirates were released.

Sorry I cannot be of more help... that insight about projectile toys related to choking is interesting.

 

19 minutes ago, kelceycoe said:

Growing up and owning all of these toys I also assumed the bright red versions were just a shipwrecked Captain Red Beard. But after reading product descriptions from that time period it definitely changed my mind and added to the confusion. In my collection, for my narratives, (and based on the Japanese trailer for The Islanders), both Captains were rivals - Captain Ironhook once worked for Captain Red Beard but after being found guilty of mutiny (like in the Disney movie Treasure Island) he was ousted and became his own Captain with his own ship and crew. Captain Ironhook focused his attention on the Islanders (red Beard on the Imperials) and, after 1995's Treasure Chest set, was ultimately killed. We know - if we consider the newer Barracuda Bay set as canon- that the Islanders also met their fate and Captain Red Beard is the lone surviving Captain.

I'm aware of the lore, but I don't think the toys were so clearly defined.  Why would there be versions of Ironhook with and without a pegleg?  Did he lose a leg later in the canon lore?  LEGO produces children's toys, so research and consistency is not as high a priority as we would like it as fans.  Reference Adventurers character names (and even character changes over time) for this sort of idea, especially Sam Sinister/Baron von Barron.

My suspicion is that the original figure was designed to be a shipwrecked Captain Redbeard, but was later added to the named storyline as Captain Ironhook and thus developed the distinction that Captain Ironhook invaded the Islanders and Captain Redbeard fought with the Imperial factions.  Basically, as an ongoing toy line theme, I do not think LEGO Pirates were as clearly defined as a movie plot would be, especially since this would go against the imaginative intent for children to make their own stories (though this is the primary direction of TLG today with mostly licensed themes based around a distinct movie story).  I don't think we can know for sure, especially almost 40 years later, as you mentioned.

[kelceycoe]

I conclusively solve these issues in these topics below: