Oversimplification

[koalayummies]

2 hours ago, Aanchir said:

I strongly feel that the reasonable response to differences in thinking, learning, and experiencing the world is to accept that they exist and try to design experiences to be accessible to anyone.

Agreed.

The underlying premise of this thread and some responses in it are wondering if its a "case of kids getting dumber" and insinuating learning disabilities. Cantankerously vociferating: "well back in my day they didn't number the bags or tell us what pieces were in the next step so kids these days must be slow and soft or something!"

I think those at TLG would be just a little disappointed at that kind of response to their efforts of making the building process as widely accessible as they have.

[Mylenium]

16 hours ago, Aanchir said:

All in all I just don't see why this would be a big deal for anyone. It's not as though it's a personal insult to your intelligence or anyone's — it's just an experience that's intended for builders across a wide range of proficiency levels, and I feel like the benefits of having that broader level inclusivity far outweigh individual moments of discomfort for builders who are blessed with greater skill and experience than others.

I didn't mean to imply that it's per se bad. However, there are parts of the instructions that are at times ridiculous regardless of considerations on skills. I can't remember which it was, but I recently built a set where they showed how to plug-on flower-shaped studs across multiple pages one-by-one and it made me go "WTF?". You know, none of the elements were obscured/ hidden, the colors were clearly discernible and it all would have wonderfully fitted on one page/ into one step with everyone being able to follow. It's those little things that indeed makes it appear LEGO are "oversimplifying"...

Mylenium

[Peppermint_M]

The question begs: what set?

The classic internet chestnut of "pics or it didn't happen" applies 

[Mylenium]

5 hours ago, Peppermint_M said:

The question begs: what set?

I'm sure if it comes back to me I'll post the link to the instructions and the pages, but for now it's all a jumble

4 hours ago, Peppermint_M said:

The classic internet chestnut of "pics or it didn't happen" applies 

Oh please... In a day and age where half the Internet is full with fake images? If this nonsensical statement ever had any truth to it, we are long past that point.

Mylenium

[hagridshut]

On 12/13/2020 at 12:15 PM, astral brick said:

Sign of the times:

- numbered bags

- step by step instructions

- use of different colors in relation to specific parts (regardless of the outcomes on the look of the models when the elements are visible).

To be added: functional illiteracy, short attention span, inability to go beyond literal interpretation (the most serious issue of the aforementioned ones).

Zeitgeist or just rhetoric of the old times? Whatever the opinion is, the need of focus and the sense of challenge may increase both personal satisfaction and skills development at the completion of the set.

Therefore the excessive simplification does not simply concern the building experience, it is an a priori value judgement of paying customers.

I grew up with LEGO sets in the 1980's and 90's, and I don't mind the numbered bags and step-by-step instructions packaged with today's sets. 

Many of the old large space sets, like the Alpha Centauri Outpost (From Blacktron II in 1991), are simple in comparison to a modern large set like Pirates of Barracuda Bay.  The color palates are much more varied than they are today.  

Similarly, I don't find literal interpretation to be much of an issue either.  Many kids end up disassembling their sets and building their own MOCs out of their pool of bricks and pieces.  

[AmperZand]

The instructions aren’t simple enough. They should show a fraction of the action of each piece being moved into position - on the right hand page only. Then you could flick through the pages and animate the motion just like old-style flip books. You would probably need a separate  manual for each piece.

Of course, you’ll also need an instruction manual to show you how to use the instruction manuals.

I think of everything. I’m so clever!

More seriously, LEGO should not only provide instructions online which they already do, but videos showing sets being assembled. There are plenty of third party videos of sets being assembled on YouTube (Jang’s for example), but LEGO should do official ones.

Also, when you buy sets online from LEGO, Amazon etc, you should have the option of getting the set without the instructions. After all, if you have ordered online, you can probably download the instructions and don’t need a paper version.

Edited December 16, 2020 by AmperZand

[Aanchir]

1 hour ago, AmperZand said:

More seriously, LEGO should not only provide instructions online which they already do, but videos showing sets being assembled. There are plenty of third party videos of sets being assembled on YouTube (Jang’s for example), but LEGO should do official ones. 

They still haven't got this on any sort of universal level, but there are some current sets which offer an option LEGO has been testing out called "LEGO Instructions PLUS" where you scan them using the LEGO Life app to view versions of the instruction steps that you can turn around to any angle and that I think shows the parts for those steps floating into place. If I'm remembering right, the LEGO Boost and LEGO Super Mario sets also have interactive instructions like this in their respective apps.

I haven't tried it out too much myself, though, so I can't speak for its ease of use on a lot of levels. I built one of the Super Mario sets with my twin brother and I preferred using the digital manual on my laptop (which is closer to a print manual format) for that than the app, but that's mostly because it was easier to look at one large screen than pass a tiny smartphone back and forth. If we had a larger tablet, perhaps I'd have been fine with looking at the interactive instructions together on that screen.

I suspect one reason that LEGO hasn't done a whole lot of building videos like Jang's is that they know that fan reviewers already do this, and realize that it would not be much benefit to them to compete with their own fans on that front when it would probably end up feeling less authentic and engaging than a video by a fellow fan who has more experience filming and hosting that particular type of video. But they do have a lot of videos on their YouTube channel that I haven't paid a lot of attention to, so maybe they are already moving more in that sort of direction than I realize.

Edited December 16, 2020 by Aanchir

[TeriXeri]

3-in-1 sets can be built without numbered bags if you start alternate build first, If I only have 1 set, I still build the main build myself however, just as a check of completeness, building is more interesting then counting pieces.

As for extra steps in instructions, I like it, as sets have gotten bigger , especially the piece count picture per step helps a lot.

I certainly have noticed "weird colors" in sets, especially City, where insides of cars are green and such while the main build is grey/white. Long past are the days where a set only had a handful of colors, could be seen as either a downside or upside however depending on the goal.

I will be very sad if LEGO stops paper instructions however, they make a great archive, long-term, especially on more recent sets with a set's parts counts in the manuals, even while it won't cover spare parts and such, it does make LEGO somewhat timeless being independant of an electronic device.

There's just something special about rebuilding old LEGO from paper manuals after a long period of time of let's say 20 years.

Edited December 16, 2020 by TeriXeri

[Grover]

I miss the older instructions with fewer steps, and I have nostalgia for unnumbered bags, but sets were smaller then.  I can't imagine building the falcon with unnumbered bags.  I personally don't find numbered bags to be over simplified, but some of the instructions, where they have one plate per step, I do find to be oversimplified.

[Peppermint_M]

21 hours ago, Mylenium said:

On 12/15/2020 at 10:20 AM, Peppermint_M said:

The question begs: what set?

I'm sure if it comes back to me I'll post the link to the instructions and the pages, but for now it's all a jumble

As such, it is simple conjecture and cannot be held as true or serious evidence. In fact, it becomes a ludicrous and heyperbolic statement.

 

If you want to be grumpy about it. I can reply in kind.

[astral brick]

5 hours ago, Peppermint_M said:

As such, it is simple conjecture and cannot be held as true or serious evidence. In fact, it becomes a ludicrous and heyperbolic statement.

I don't understand this kind of attitude. A problem that I noticed in this forum is that too many users, and we are talking of adult people, tend to consider every thread as it was a sort of debate competition, if not a trial with evidences to be shown or cross examinations to be completed. The topic of this thread was clear, it was sufficient to look at the tag "building experiences". So far I have only read very few ones that were interesting or, at least, not completely ot.

Guys please, this is not a rhetoric competition, you don't have to convince people who are not in agreement with you, or to prove anything to anyone - but yourselves maybe - or to have an opinion about every topic or, the most annoying conduct, to feel obligated to point out or, even worse, to confute other people's tastes, memories or personal experiences. The outcome of these immature and nonconstructive behaviours is to ruin every conversation, forcing the users to leave the forum out of boredom, pushing them to the soliloquies of the blogs' comment sections.         

5 hours ago, Peppermint_M said:

If you want to be grumpy about it. I can reply in kind.

Sigh...

[Rotbart]

On 12/13/2020 at 6:15 PM, astral brick said:

Sign of the times:

- numbered bags

- step by step instructions

- use of different colors in relation to specific parts (regardless of the outcomes on the look of the models when the elements are visible).

...

Comparing instructions from the early 1990 and 2020 I ...

- ... like numbered bags

- ... would like something in the middle of 40 steps (1990) and 400 steps (2020), let's say: 150. Of course I could work with less, but my kids now tend to have problems when building the sets from my childhood. And I do remember being frustrated myself sometimes, when in 1990 I missed one piece somewhere and needed quite some time to figure out where and when it happened.

- ... don't like having many different colors in the build just for the sake of making the build process easier, even though you might not not see them once the set is finished. I'd rather have more pieces in useful colors for MODs/MOCs.

- ... love that they introduced that every step includes this box with what parts and how many you need for this step in the instructions.

Edited December 16, 2020 by Rotbart

[Lira_Bricks]

I recently noticed that I never look at the little boxes with the parts needed... probably a quirk I still have from when I build with lego as a child, as those boxes did not exist back then (for non-technic sets) :')

[Lyichir]

4 hours ago, Lira_Bricks said:

I recently noticed that I never look at the little boxes with the parts needed... probably a quirk I still have from when I build with lego as a child, as those boxes did not exist back then (for non-technic sets) :')

I don't always (especially for smaller sets) but I definitely appreciate them, since like my sister mentioned up-thread we've built sets collaboratively for many years and the parts boxes provide an easy way for the builder who's not working on the current step to prepare their parts for when it rotates back around to them. And of course even when building on my own, if I get to the end of a bag of parts and find a leftover that shouldn't be there, the parts lists for each step make it slightly easier to backtrack through the last stage of the build to see where it might have been missed. For that matter, that's an additional benefit of the numbered bags as well, since dividing the build into "stages" like that makes it easier to verify completion throughout the build instead of only noticing a mistake when the entire thing is built!

[Driver Brandon Grumman]

I think step by step instructions and numbered bags is a good idea. I can build my set without having to toil around. 

[Peppermint_M]

Okay, thanks for ignoring the more cheerful post that garnered the grotty response and instead the return serve. 

Building experience:

Instructions I encounter are fine, I do not drop hundreds of pounds on a single set, so I have not experienced building something like The ISS or another set that might require easier instructions for more casual builders.  The City and Friends sets have instructions that are perfect for the age range they are aimed at. My purchases of other themes that are aimed at older age brackets are fine to build, however I am building a LEGO set for three reasons: I love LEGO, so I will be biased. I am learning a new technique used in the build, as some of the designs use some clever methods I have not arrived at myself. Finally, I build for Mindfulness, following any sort of instructions to construct something (LEGO, Nano-blocks, Paper/Card pop-out models) helps me generate a nice "white-noise" in my sometimes tumultuous thoughts. It helps prevent anxiety/panic attacks escalating or starting. So, instructions can tell me to pick out one stud and put it on one plate, and that would be a help to me.

Mostly though: I am a Maker, I want to create something new from raw material that I have envisioned in my mind. I MOC, so all purchases of LEGO are with that in mind. I think the main problem with the forum is everyone wants to discuss things to death and complain instead of sharing and commenting on people's creations.

[Mylenium]

On 12/16/2020 at 3:41 AM, AmperZand said:

More seriously, LEGO should not only provide instructions online which they already do, but videos showing sets being assembled.

I don't think so. The whole point of this having become its own sub-genre is because everyone has a different preference - some prefer silent videos all together, others with music, some like it when the builder motor-mouths all over the video. If you produce a reasonably "neutral" official video, all that individual distinction is lost and if you wanted a narration, you also run into issues with different languages having different timings and so on. Could be a lot of work that doesn't really pay off.

On 12/16/2020 at 3:41 AM, AmperZand said:

Also, when you buy sets online from LEGO, Amazon etc, you should have the option of getting the set without the instructions. After all, if you have ordered online, you can probably download the instructions and don’t need a paper version.

Would only complicate the logistics and that's why I'm 100% certain it won't happen. That will always be a rather absolute "either...or..." - either LEGO puts the instructions in or simply leaves them out.

Mylenium

On 12/16/2020 at 4:44 AM, Aanchir said:

I suspect one reason that LEGO hasn't done a whole lot of building videos like Jang's is that they know that fan reviewers already do this, and realize that it would not be much benefit to them to compete with their own fans on that front when it would probably end up feeling less authentic and engaging than a video by a fellow fan who has more experience filming and hosting that particular type of video.

Yupp, exactly.

Mylenium

[MAB]

On 12/16/2020 at 2:41 AM, AmperZand said:

More seriously, LEGO should not only provide instructions online which they already do, but videos showing sets being assembled. There are plenty of third party videos of sets being assembled on YouTube (Jang’s for example), but LEGO should do official ones.

I'd hate to have to follow a build video instead of paper instructions. Watch 2 seconds, click to stop the video, find the part, look at the video image to see where the part goes, click to start video and repeat. For every part. The instruction booklet is literally a print out of a frame by frame video which you do not have to keep stopping and starting. In fact, at least in paper instructions they do multiple parts per frame.

[koalayummies]

Lego: Makes instructions straightforward and user-friendly so almost anyone can build it, especially those in the recommended age group.

Consumer: Why would they make the instructions so clear and understandable. This is way too easy. Sign of the times. Indignation.

[Erik Leppen]

I'd like to step in the discussion and bring my boyfriend in as an example. He's not a Lego fan, but he likes a good build as a temporary decoration, so we sometimes build sets together, where he's the one building and I just collect the pieces for each step. Mostly the Creator expert cars but we also did Parisian Restaurant and a few Architecture sets.

It has surprised me many times how much he struggles with these building instructions. I sometimes need to correct him; he probably couldn't work it out alone. And we're talking about a normal person with a university degree. Just not someone who's naturally drawn to "abstract things" like Lego.

All of us at Eurobricks, are in some way naturally drawn to Lego. We're a highly pre-selected group, so our ideas are not representative of the general public. It's easy to forget how it works for someone not by themselves attracted to Lego but wanting to join their loved ones and experience this Lego thing together. It's easy to miss how non-fans will react to it.

Connected to these building difficulties, of course, is the time required. We built the Ideas Treehouse, which was about 3000 parts. We spread it over at least 5 or so evenings, spread over multiple weeks, to finish that. And I can tell you, numbered bags are a godsend in this case. What they do is separate the build into "chapters", introducing natural moments to "pause" the build without loose parts lying around everywhere. Much to how a novel is split into chapters.

Thirdly, I think, the very fact that the building process for a given model has become easier, means that the models can become more complex. Which, I believe, is great for us. Some people complain about colored parts in Technic or colored bricks hidden in a model, but I think, without those color-coded parts, we wouldn't have had the variety of parts we have. It's only possible to add another type of axle pin if it's clearly distinct from the other axle pin for non-AFOLs. Color-coding achieves this. Same goes for the colorful innards of a model. They ease the process, which allows for more complicated models.

So, as much as I personally liked the shorter instructions from 90's Technic sets, the current instructions just work better for non-AFOLs. And remember: every set will be someone's first experience with Lego :)

Edited December 17, 2020 by Erik Leppen

[Peppermint_M]

So much THIS @Erik Leppen

I can build with my (much) younger brother and we fly through the steps, as a pair of life-long fans we have got to the point where we trouble-shoot each other's MOC problems and make suggestions to each other for abstract ideas/goals. If we both had the same set it would be a race to see who builds it faster.
If I build with my sister (who is not even two years younger than me), chances are she will take longer. We used to play in a way that had me build everything and then we role-play a story together, sets or MOCs. She has gotten into buying her own LEGO and MOC making, in the last few years, but is still going to take longer with a set and also appreciate the easier steps. 

 

[Aanchir]

1 hour ago, Erik Leppen said:

I'd like to step in the discussion and bring my boyfriend in as an example. He's not a Lego fan, but he likes a good build as a temporary decoration, so we sometimes build sets together, where he's the one building and I just collect the pieces for each step. Mostly the Creator expert cars but we also did Parisian Restaurant and a few Architecture sets. 

It has surprised me many times how much he struggles with these building instructions. I sometimes need to correct him; he probably couldn't work it out alone. And we're talking about a normal person with a university degree. Just not someone who's naturally drawn to "abstract things" like Lego.

All of us at Eurobricks, are in some way naturally drawn to Lego. We're a highly pre-selected group, so our ideas are not representative of the general public. It's easy to forget how it works for someone not by themselves attracted to Lego but wanting to join their loved ones and experience this Lego thing together. It's easy to miss how non-fans will react to it. 

Connected to these building difficulties, of course, is the time required. We built the Ideas Treehouse, which was about 3000 parts. We spread it over at least 5 or so evenings, spread over multiple weeks, to finish that. And I can tell you, numbered bags are a godsend in this case. What they do is separate the build into "chapters", introducing natural moments to "pause" the build without loose parts lying around everywhere. Much to how a novel is split into chapters. 

Thirdly, I think, the very fact that the building process for a given model has become easier, means that the models can become more complex. Which, I believe, is great for us. Some people complain about colored parts in Technic or colored bricks hidden in a model, but I think, without those color-coded parts, we wouldn't have had the variety of parts we have. It's only possible to add another type of axle pin if it's clearly distinct from the other axle pin for non-AFOLs. Color-coding achieves this. Same goes for the colorful innards of a model. They ease the process, which allows for more complicated models. 

So, as much as I personally liked the shorter instructions from 90's Technic sets, the current instructions just work better for non-AFOLs. And remember: every set will be someone's first experience with Lego :)

Thank you for sharing your experiences! I definitely agree with a lot of the points you make, and that final point in particular is something I think we ALL need to remind ourselves of sometimes! After all, it's very easy to begin thinking of adult-oriented sets in general as stuff designed specifically for AFOLs like us, when really, a lot of them might be aimed at a much wider range of adult customers, including adults who have never picked up a brick before, haven't built anything with LEGO since their childhood, or don't ever tend to spend any time at all in "toy stores".

Beyond the sorts of "user-friendly" design considerations that LEGO has adopted in their sets, packaging, and instructions, this is also one of the reasons that a lot of LEGO's adult-oriented products and marketing efforts — for example, the Art, Architecture, Forma, BrickHeadz, and Botanical Collection product lines; or the packaging design for their 18+ sets; or marketing efforts like the LEGO Masters TV series or the Levi's, Adidas, and Ikea brand partnerships — can often seem so far removed from the sets and themes (or changes to existing sets and themes) that we might prefer for LEGO to focus on.

[howitzer]

I actually had a similar observations as Erik when I introduced Lego to my partner. First I gave them 8865 to build, and it was a real struggle (and not just because the horrible first-iteration friction pins), the next one was 8868 which went much easier but I still had to help here and there. Then we bought and built together 42082 and again the new parts and building techniques posed a challenge and naturally I finished my sections much, much faster, but it was still fun to build and play with together.

Simply being familiar with the basics of parts and how they go together helps tremendously in getting a build right. As others said, it's really easy for us AFOLs to forget that there's a lot to be learned for someone who has never put brick and brick together because we have learned the basic stuff so long ago that it comes as easy as breathing to us.

[Vindicare]

On 12/17/2020 at 11:00 AM, MAB said:

I'd hate to have to follow a build video instead of paper instructions. Watch 2 seconds, click to stop the video, find the part, look at the video image to see where the part goes, click to start video and repeat. For every part. The instruction booklet is literally a print out of a frame by frame video which you do not have to keep stopping and starting. In fact, at least in paper instructions they do multiple parts per frame.

Definitely. I bought a few Dimensions sets, really for the minifigs, but built the sets as well. I hated it. Constantly having to pause, then play. And that’s with a tiny set...I couldn’t imagine building the Modular or other big set in that fashion. No way. 

[AmperZand]

On 12/16/2020 at 3:44 AM, Aanchir said:

I suspect one reason that LEGO hasn't done a whole lot of building videos like Jang's is that they know that fan reviewers already do this, and realize that it would not be much benefit to them to compete with their own fans on that front when it would probably end up feeling less authentic and engaging than a video by a fellow fan who has more experience filming and hosting that particular type of video. 

I very much doubt an organisation the size of LEGO's is going to care much about treading on the toes of a few fans even if some of them are influencers. For one thing, the fan channels like Jang's are going to attract a different audience, namely AFOLs, to LEGO's own, i.e. KFOLs and non-FOLs (parents buying for kids etc). For another, big organisations don't think that way. If they see value in doing something, they just do it regardless of who else may be doing the same especially if the other is a disorganised assembly of private individuals.

As for fans doing a better job of producing such videos, again, I doubt that. LEGO would make use of professional videographers and animators (both physical and CGI) using state-of-the-art equipment and facilities. 

On 12/17/2020 at 9:59 AM, Mylenium said:

Would only complicate the logistics and that's why I'm 100% certain it won't happen. That will always be a rather absolute "either...or..." - either LEGO puts the instructions in or simply leaves them out.

Oh, I don't know. I can imagine LEGO doing smaller boxes (many sets have unnecessarily large boxes) without instructions and branding them as greener versions. Would be desirable for shippers too such as Amazon as it would reduce volume (physical space) and weight.

On 12/17/2020 at 7:00 PM, MAB said:

I'd hate to have to follow a build video instead of paper instructions. 

So would I. As I said earlier in this thread, LEGO should do instruction videos in addition to paper or PDF ones, not instead of them.