EV3 or Mindstorms Robot Innovator?

[howitzer]

Hi, I've been curious about the Mindstorms for a long time and now that the new incarnation has been released, I'm wondering which would you recommend, EV3 or Mindstorms Robot Inventor? I have read Jim's review of the 51515 set and still unsure if I should go there or get the older set, as it is apparently somehow more limited than EV3? EV3 on the other hand is apparently incompatible with all the new electronics, so will it become obsolete soon? The EV3 set can be bought for much for cheaper though, so that's one consideration too.

I have minimal programming skill (equivalent of an introductory course in university for Java) but I'm interested in learning more, especially Python. Meanwhile, I'd like to have an easy way to quickly make simple programs, I've come to understand that Scratch or equivalent language can be used?

Another thing, I'm wondering if either of the hubs could be used as an equivalent of the Technic PU hub for remote controlling my Technic models with a smartphone. Or even using a gaming controller and BrickController 2 app for for remote control, Is something like that feasible with either of them, or should I just go for the PU hub instead?

[Lok24]

Hi,

python is available fo both systems.

I find python much easier than the Scratch version. Help ist much better.
Yes Robot inventor can be controlled by SmartDevice or game controller (without BC2).

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by Lok24

[howitzer]

7 minutes ago, Lok24 said:

Hi,

python is available fo both systems.

I find python much easier than the Scratch version. Help ist much better.
Yes Robot inventor can be controlled by SmartDevice or game controller (without BC2).

 

Thanks! So EV3 can not be controlled with a smartphone/game controller?

[JintaiZ]

I'd say Robot Inventor offers much better value, but EV3 is more advanced. Ultimately, it's up to you...

[howitzer]

6 minutes ago, JintaiZ said:

I'd say Robot Inventor offers much better value, but EV3 is more advanced. Ultimately, it's up to you...

How is it more advanced? Is there something that can be done with EV3 that can't be done with Robot Inventor?

[Jim]

2 hours ago, Lok24 said:

python is available fo both systems.

And booting EV3 with Python support takes...........for..........ever.......

47 minutes ago, howitzer said:

How is it more advanced? Is there something that can be done with EV3 that can't be done with Robot Inventor?

Let me ask the most important question; what do you want to do with Mindstorms and what are your expectations?

[howitzer]

2 hours ago, Jim said:

Let me ask the most important question; what do you want to do with Mindstorms and what are your expectations?

I don't have a very clear picture in mind, and that's probably part of the reason why I'm asking here. Here's some ideas though:

Learning to code on basic level with would be the general aim at least initially. As for the actual robots, maybe some GBC-style stuff, like some sort of pneumatically actuated ball-mover? Walking (4-6 legs) robot would be pretty nifty. And of course making RC-controlled Technic-style machinery, maybe with custom interface for smartphone.

[Micka]

And, Spike or Mindstorms Robot Inventor ?

What are the differences ?

[Newest_Tech320]

1 hour ago, Micka said:

And, Spike or Mindstorms Robot Inventor ?

What are the differences ?

Spike Prime for classroom, Mindstorms Robot Inventor has better parts including the new differential and 11x15 black frame and the spike prime baseplate 11x19.

[Micka]

The smart brick have the same performance ?

[Jim]

9 hours ago, Micka said:

The smart brick have the same performance ?

Spike Prime and Robot Inventor basically have the same hub, in a different color (and with different firmware, which can be replaced).

14 hours ago, howitzer said:

I don't have a very clear picture in mind, and that's probably part of the reason why I'm asking here. Here's some ideas though:

Learning to code on basic level with would be the general aim at least initially. As for the actual robots, maybe some GBC-style stuff, like some sort of pneumatically actuated ball-mover? Walking (4-6 legs) robot would be pretty nifty. And of course making RC-controlled Technic-style machinery, maybe with custom interface for smartphone.

Well, I would recommend getting one of the new Mindstorms sets (Spike Prime or Robot Inventor). The EV3 might be more powerful in some areas, but if you are not a hardcore robot builder, I think the new ones will get your started more easily. And the new one are compatible with the current ecosystem of LEGO electronics. 

[Tcm0]

On 10/31/2020 at 3:59 PM, howitzer said:

How is it more advanced? Is there something that can be done with EV3 that can't be done with Robot Inventor?

The EV3 has a USB host plug and can boot from SD cards. You can replace the complete OS with something else and there's e.g. ev3dev which is based on the debian linux distribution. You can make very powerful and advanced things with it (e.g. interact with the lego dimensions toypad, run a webserver with a website to e.g. remote control the ev3 etc). However stuff like that is very complicated and requires fundamental knowledge in computer science etc.

The new hubs are much simpler to work with but provide enough features for almost all of the users. Personally I think that it simplyfies a few too many things (there is no real options menu to enable/disable bluetooth or set the sound volume or disable the button noise, no official file browser to upload your own sounds or python libraries, problems with the documentation, no open source firmware etc). In the end the question is how much knowledge you have in computer science/linux and what your expectations are.

/edit

Also, the EV3 is longer in the market so there are more programming options. This is supported by the fact that the micropython os of spike/ robot inventor basically only allows python and layers on top of that (e.g. the official scratch-like environment). There are many programming languages that work out of the box with EV3DEV but most of them are text-based. So it kind of depends on which programming language(s) you want to use.

Edited November 1, 2020 by Tcm0

[Jim]

I absolutely agree with @Tcm0.

So the question remains; do you want a small computer capable of doing a lot of stuff, which requires diving into the matter. Or do you want to create (simple) LEGO robots without diving in too deep.

[howitzer]

15 hours ago, Tcm0 said:

The EV3 has a USB host plug and can boot from SD cards. You can replace the complete OS with something else and there's e.g. ev3dev which is based on the debian linux distribution. You can make very powerful and advanced things with it (e.g. interact with the lego dimensions toypad, run a webserver with a website to e.g. remote control the ev3 etc). However stuff like that is very complicated and requires fundamental knowledge in computer science etc.

The new hubs are much simpler to work with but provide enough features for almost all of the users. Personally I think that it simplyfies a few too many things (there is no real options menu to enable/disable bluetooth or set the sound volume or disable the button noise, no official file browser to upload your own sounds or python libraries, problems with the documentation, no open source firmware etc). In the end the question is how much knowledge you have in computer science/linux and what your expectations are.

/edit

Also, the EV3 is longer in the market so there are more programming options. This is supported by the fact that the micropython os of spike/ robot inventor basically only allows python and layers on top of that (e.g. the official scratch-like environment). There are many programming languages that work out of the box with EV3DEV but most of them are text-based. So it kind of depends on which programming language(s) you want to use.

Thanks a lot for the insightful answer, I'll take this into consideration!

5 hours ago, Jim said:

 

I absolutely agree with @Tcm0.

So the question remains; do you want a small computer capable of doing a lot of stuff, which requires diving into the matter. Or do you want to create (simple) LEGO robots without diving in too deep.

My answer here is probably: yes, I want to eat the cake and keep it too, so I guess I should get both? :D (No I won't.)

Anyway, as I'm a beginner with no in-depth knowledge of computers, I guess Robot Innovator is better for me right now. Perhaps it'll have a more advanced successor in a few years, which would enable everything that EV3 does and by then I might also have the skill to make more advanced stuff.

And then there's the backwards compatibility issue, which makes Robot Innovator much more attractive option.

[Jim]

In your situation I think it's indeed better to start with RI. You can always pick up a second hand EV3 if you really want to explore further options.

The saying is "have your cake and eat it too" btw, but you were close enough 

[howitzer]

On 11/2/2020 at 5:36 PM, Jim said:

In your situation I think it's indeed better to start with RI. You can always pick up a second hand EV3 if you really want to explore further options.

The saying is "have your cake and eat it too" btw, but you were close enough 

Yeah, I thought about picking up a secondhand EV3, which actually seem to be surprisingly common in the market. Right now there's one set for sale in a local sales forum, described as "once assembled and then put in a cupboard" for 200€, which is pretty decent price I think. There's also a few more slightly more expensive ones, so I think getting a secondhand EV3 won't be a problem if and when RI starts to feel like too limited.

[doughnut]

On 11/2/2020 at 6:12 AM, howitzer said:

Perhaps it'll have a more advanced successor in a few years, which would enable everything that EV3 does and by then I might also have the skill to make more advanced stuff.

Keep in mind that "a few years" means ~7 years - that's the Mindstorms release cycle. And there's no guarantee there will be more advanced stuff. In fact, observing the current trend, I would not be surprised if the next Mindstorms will have to use your mobile device instead of the brick. It kinda does so already - you can't debug on the new brick.

 

You mentioned a Java class - if you're a CS student, I would actually advise going with EV3 - like people say, it can run Linux, and you can program in many other languages, not just Python. I am a software engineer myself, and I don't work with Python. That was my primary reason to pick EV3 - I am more into C++ or Rust. Maybe this option will become available in the new set also in the future, but if that will happen, and when that will happens - who knows.

Edited November 4, 2020 by doughnut

[howitzer]

10 hours ago, doughnut said:

Keep in mind that "a few years" means ~7 years - that's the Mindstorms release cycle. And there's no guarantee there will be more advanced stuff. In fact, observing the current trend, I would not be surprised if the next Mindstorms will have to use your mobile device instead of the brick. It kinda does so already - you can't debug on the new brick.

 

You mentioned a Java class - if you're a CS student, I would actually advise going with EV3 - like people say, it can run Linux, and you can program in many other languages, not just Python. I am a software engineer myself, and I don't work with Python. That was my primary reason to pick EV3 - I am more into C++ or Rust. Maybe this option will become available in the new set also in the future, but if that will happen, and when that will happens - who knows.

I'm not a CS student but I once aspired to be one, so I went to a MOOC which could've earned me a position as a university CS student, but I had to drop the course about halfway in, which is approximately equivalent to an introductory class in Java. Anyway, several friends have recommended Python for me if I want to get coding and I would have a lot of support there with skilled friends who I can ask for advice, so coding-wise either Mindstorms set works for me.

Your comment on the release cycle of Mindstorms is spot on though, which puts me in sort of a difficult position, as EV3 isn't compatible with other Lego electronics but Robot Innovator is so there is a choice between compatibility and versatility. But as others noted, one would have to dive pretty deep into computer science to fully appreciate the potential of EV3 so I think RI is the way to go for a beginner like me.

[Lok24]

13 minutes ago, howitzer said:

as EV3 isn't compatible with other Lego electronics but Robot Innovator is 

You could perhaps(!!!) use the motors on PoweredUp hubs, that's all I think.

That all depends on the FW in the Hubs.

 

[Tcm0]

22 minutes ago, Lok24 said:

You could perhaps(!!!) use the motors on PoweredUp hubs, that's all I think.

That all depends on the FW in the Hubs.

 

You can use PUP sensors with the SPIKE/ Robot Inventor hub, but only through python programming.

[howitzer]

2 hours ago, Lok24 said:

You could perhaps(!!!) use the motors on PoweredUp hubs, that's all I think.

That all depends on the FW in the Hubs.

 

I was thinking more of using PU motors with RI hub.

[Lok24]

6 minutes ago, howitzer said:

I was thinking more of using PU motors with RI hub.

Might work, might not be working anymore with a newer FW. Nobody knows.

[sakis]

Hey there!!

I'm too between these two. I'm a python programmer and was really interested in what can I build with them simple or complex. Someone said you can't debug on the new brick which is a little bummer if you want to build something a little more complicated. You have to know what code fails as it's been executed by the robot.

Also I believe I read somewhere that the ram situation of the new RI is worst that EV3's. People doing hackish things to make their (big) EV3's programs to work on the RI.

Syncing code between your computer and the RI is wirelessly via bluetooth which is cool but maybe that is  the reason why we can't debug on the brick.

At what point would you consider the EV3 obsolete??

Arg it's frustrating. lol. 

 

Thanks!

[Lok24]

9 hours ago, sakis said:

Someone said you can't debug on the new brick which is a little bummer if you want to build something a little more complicated. You have to know what code fails as it's been executed by the robot.

I don't have the RI, but looking at the software this is wrong. Why don't you install the SW to check out?

9 hours ago, sakis said:

People doing hackish things to make their (big) EV3's programs to work on the RI.

 

But you don't have any onld huge programs?

 

9 hours ago, sakis said:

Syncing code between your computer and the RI is wirelessly via bluetooth which is cool but maybe that is  the reason why we can't debug on the brick.

Why?

9 hours ago, sakis said:

At what point would you consider the EV3 obsolete??

The day when the Robot Inventor was realeased....

Edited November 9, 2020 by Lok24

[Jim]

The EV3 has (imho) better support for Python, using a nice VSCode extensions. However, it takes about a minute or two to boot the EV3 for Python 

1 hour ago, Lok24 said:

Why?

Are you asking why we need debugging?