German Toy Fair – LEGO To Increase Focus On AFOLs

[Masked Mini]

This is a fantastic microcosmos of a corporate board meeting.
We just need an accountant to chime in on the financials of the City+13 line.
Maybe a visionary designer with no connection to reality to pitch his 500pcs poly bag promos for the line.
And maybe a thoroughly baffled senior board member who hasn't touched a brick since the early 70s Samsonite era.

And the Technophile who is pushing Enhanced Artificial Reality for every theme because it will engage the smartphone addicted millennial kids (doesn't realize we're in our 30s now). 

[Driver Brandon Grumman]

24 minutes ago, Masked Mini said:

This is a fantastic microcosmos of a corporate board meeting.

It does kinda feel like that. Better it sound like a board meeting than a war of words. 

[Mylenium]

31 minutes ago, Masked Mini said:

This is a fantastic microcosmos of a corporate board meeting.

Sure, but ultimately it's just everyone presenting his opinion. Nothing wrong with that as ultimately the proof will be in the pudding once LEGO actually release such products - or they don't. ;-)

Mylenium

31 minutes ago, Masked Mini said:

And maybe a thoroughly baffled senior board member who hasn't touched a brick since the early 70s Samsonite era.

That's just a bad stereotype. I've seen seniors taking twenty-somethings fresh out of business school to the mat and coming out on top with their in-depth knowledge of products, company details, specifics of the supply chain and so on.

Mylenium

Edited January 31, 2020 by Mylenium
Typos

[Masked Mini]

1 hour ago, Mylenium said:

That's just a bad stereotype

Maybe, but it's funny and adds to the picture i was painting.

I'm just a Quality Control Inspector far away from the discussion making sure the end product does what it says on the box.
I very often run into the above stereotype. Lots of bright ideas and understanding of what sausages we sell but no idea how we actually make the sausage*.
(*We make Military Aircraft not sausages)

 

1 hour ago, Brandon Pea said:

Better it sound like a board meeting than a war of words. 

He's picking up what I'm laying down. 
You guys are passionately arguing your points from two different but equally valid and necessary perspectives.

[Driver Brandon Grumman]

53 minutes ago, Masked Mini said:

He's picking up what I'm laying down. 
You guys are passionately arguing your points from two different but equally valid and necessary perspectives.

Hey! I agree with you 100%. Someone has to be civil on the internet for once. There are too many people who get bent out of shape online over something small when we've got bigger crap on our shoulders (i.e. the death of Kobe or the Coronavirus). This is a small matter and it shall be treated as such. 

Let's just say that some of the best Lego waves came from "He wants-She wants" arguments at both board meetings and on forums like this. 

Take the 2020 City wave for example. Obviously some boys wanted to be cops while others wanted to be mechanics. Thus why we got one of the best winter waves since 2017. 

However, we should keep our wishlists reasonable. By reasonable, I mean in line with what Lego wants to push. That's why instead of my initial plan, I proposed a AFOL extension (City 13+) to an already made theme (City). One that I would consider THE most popular theme made by Lego. Heck! If it weren't for the town related themes, Lego wouldn't be as successful as it is today. 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Brandon Pea

[Toastie]

This is a very educated and fun to read discussion. This is why I love EB so much!

Now, one thing I don't get at all: The "what they give us" thing. I believe that many here have assembled tons of sets (this is what I am reading; correct me if I am wrong).

OK. Given that many here have these many sets ... why don't you do it the LEGO way? I mean the "original idea" way. The "family owned enterprise" way. The LEGO thing:

Make it happen.

This is what LEGO is about, isn't it? And then show it, if you like. Or let it be if you don't want to. With 10+ City sets + a couple of brick buckets/boxes + sets that you just buy for parts you need ... you could do everything. City, City+, Non-City, All-City, but most importantly: Your City.

Is the line of sets each year, the themes and sub themes ... is that really a show stopper? Did we lose something?

I am a bit puzzled.

All the best,
Thorsten 

 

[Driver Brandon Grumman]

34 minutes ago, Toastie said:

With 10+ City sets + a couple of brick buckets/boxes + sets that you just buy for parts you need ... you could do everything. City, City+, Non-City, All-City, but most importantly: Your City.

How about City XL? Bad joke back there. 

But that's something I can agree on too. 

[Toastie]

Just now, Brandon Pea said:

How about City XL

Like you humor!

Rock on!

Thorsten

 

 

 

[BrickJagger]

58 minutes ago, Toastie said:

This is a very educated and fun to read discussion. This is why I love EB so much!

Now, one thing I don't get at all: The "what they give us" thing. I believe that many here have assembled tons of sets (this is what I am reading; correct me if I am wrong).

OK. Given that many here have these many sets ... why don't you do it the LEGO way? I mean the "original idea" way. The "family owned enterprise" way. The LEGO thing:

Make it happen.

This is what LEGO is about, isn't it? And then show it, if you like. Or let it be if you don't want to. With 10+ City sets + a couple of brick buckets/boxes + sets that you just buy for parts you need ... you could do everything. City, City+, Non-City, All-City, but most importantly: Your City.

Is the line of sets each year, the themes and sub themes ... is that really a show stopper? Did we lose something?

I am a bit puzzled.

All the best,
Thorsten 

 

All fair points, but on an online forum like this one there is room for a lot of different kinds of discussions. Some people enjoy talking about what they're currently building, and create WIP threads to give updates on their progress. Others, probably the majority, like to discuss what Lego has on the shelves, as we're all familiar with those sets no matter where we are in the world. The commonality of these sets is probably what fosters discussion on here; notice how you never see 1000+ post threads about a MOC, but there are dozens each year for individual themes. Each user's individual interest and what they create from it is almost like a bunch of individual niches, while the product discussions are the mainstream.

Also, not everyone here is a "Master Builder". I know I'm not compared to most builders on here  We've got a lot of collectors on here that buy sets for display purposes, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Lego, as a company, should be able to do a better job than almost all of us at designing a great set, which is why they deserve some brushback if they don't.

Edited January 31, 2020 by BrickJagger

[Toastie]

Just now, BrickJagger said:

but on an online forum like this one there is room for a lot of different kinds of discussions.

This is why I phrased it as a question Believe me, I am fully aware of that.

I like to challenge though. As others do. To get people onto the threshold of their comfort zone. Not "out". Just close. Without wanting to be super smart! You know the Monty Python thing ... "How to irritate people" ...

I am not anywhere close to the level of a "Master Builder". Zero. But I occasionally I do turn bricks the other way around. For fun.

And to be absolutely sure: There is nothing wrong with collecting!!! At all.

There is one thing though: 1000+ posts don't impress me. Again: At all. People freak out on whatever. Just >personally<.

I just do my thing. On an online forum, I voice it.

Well: I am only on one single online forum: On EB. Because here, I am in touch with - LEGO folks. That is all, what counts. They can take it.

Best
Thorsten

[Driver Brandon Grumman]

2 hours ago, Toastie said:

Like you humor!

Rock on!

Thorsten

I'm starting to regret proposing City 13+. If you look at the age range, you'll see that's basically what the modulars are. 

If you ask me, they should make more than one a year. But I do understand why they don't as it does take a while to plan those out. 

Edited February 1, 2020 by Brandon Pea

[Mylenium]

10 hours ago, Toastie said:

OK. Given that many here have these many sets ... why don't you do it the LEGO way? I mean the "original idea" way. The "family owned enterprise" way. The LEGO thing: Make it happen.

Not everybody is a custom builder and beyond that one could open up endless discussions about parts availability, parts colors, useless Classic brick boxes, model complexity, customer expectations and so on...

Mylenium

[danth]

Wow this topic has completely derailed.

Anyway I hope we can get some CLASSIC. THEMED. CREATOR. SETS. out of this. It would totally appeal to AFOLS! Give me SPACE, PIRATES, and CASTLE Creator sets, even if it's just one each per year. Up the price and make them epic. I will pay!

Also, in the first page of this thread I detected some serious butt-hurt about adults making up 10% of sales. Like, are people upset that they can't go around beating up AFOLs on this forum about being a tiny minority from now on? Sad that they can't tell us to shut up anymore? Isn't this a forum for AFOLs?

[Driver Brandon Grumman]

17 minutes ago, danth said:

Also, in the first page of this thread I detected some serious butt-hurt about adults making up 10% of sales. Like, are people upset that they can't go around beating up AFOLs on this forum about being a tiny minority from now on? Sad that they can't tell us to shut up anymore? Isn't this a forum for AFOLs?

Get used to it my friend. 

Edited February 1, 2020 by Brandon Pea

[astral brick]

On 2/1/2020 at 12:57 AM, Masked Mini said:

This is a fantastic microcosmos of a corporate board meeting.

Rotfl! Such a great image, but aren't we allowed to pretend we are in Tlg board of directors? I mean, there is a topic about it, this is the fun part of writing in a forum.

[leafan]

On 2/1/2020 at 6:14 PM, danth said:

Also, in the first page of this thread I detected some serious butt-hurt about adults making up 10% of sales. Like, are people upset that they can't go around beating up AFOLs on this forum about being a tiny minority from now on? Sad that they can't tell us to shut up anymore? Isn't this a forum for AFOLs?

There is some people who like to crap on the AFOL community and their desires, but that article changes nothing, as mentioned in my previous reply on this thread.

[Driver Brandon Grumman]

2 hours ago, leafan said:

There is some people who like to crap on the AFOL community and their desires

I know all too well how you feel. 

[Masked Mini]

4 hours ago, astral brick said:

but aren't we allowed to pretend

of course we are!
Be all you can be!

[Toastie]

Just now, Masked Mini said:

of course we are!
Be all you can be!

I just ordered new business cards: In addition to everything else, it now says: "Would-be TLG Board Member; Intergalactic Strategic Planning Group (ISPG)"

Have fun!
Thorsten

[Gorilla94]

To be honest i don't get the discussion about who is a "real" AFOL or just a licence fan and how that would make a difference in sales. 

Lego was a big part of my childhood and i adore minifigures. Seeing things i love like Simpsons, Lord of the rings or Scooby Doo in this medium i love gives me a huge amount of joy every morning when i see my display while getting dressed. I do Mocs and custom minifigures but exclusively about licenced themes. If Lego would release a 400€-Gondor in Minifigure scale i'd get it. If there were good castle sets usefull for lotr i'd probably pick them up. If there are sweet orc-parts in generic fantasy sets, i'll bricklink them. If a third party company offers a good 3d-Printed accessory piece, i'll get it. On the other hand i dont want the retro yellow castle for free. Am i an adult fan of bricks? Am i an Non-fol? What matters to the company is the fact, that i am willing to spend the money for 7 pairs dark brown medium legs on Bricklink to upgrade my dwarfs and make them larger than Hobbits but smaller than humans. What matters to the company is that there are Comic Nerds paying 250€ because of a very cool display Batmobil and sn exclusive moulded headgear.

If Lego would just reuse old moulds Afols with a huge collection would soon have little reason to get new sets, as well as children/their parents, when the pieces are available cheap on the second hand market. The hat/hair combination from Stranger things will be reused. The moulded Mickey and Donald heads are a usefull addition for Legos library and i am sure there will be a Juniors line with them when the big sets are retired because the demand of 300+€-sets is satisfied. Medium legs will be reused. The very few occasions Lego makes  what i would call " real special service" with moulds like the keaton Batman headgear doesn't happen very often and it pays off well.

[Mylenium]

1 hour ago, Gorilla94 said:

What matters to the company is the fact, that i am willing to spend the money for 7 pairs dark brown medium legs on Bricklink to upgrade my dwarfs and make them larger than Hobbits but smaller than humans.

It's probably fair to say that LEGO doesn't give a capital F about that part and you might find out and see it flying in your face when one of the designers thinks it would be a cool idea to use such figures in a contemporary set again. Suddenly those pieces would be available in mass again at discount prices and your precious rare items lose all their monetary value over night. Other than that all that counts for a company are first market sales because that's the only thing they can control directly. Bricklink is just a playground for LEGO and compared to the rest of the company it's pretty definitely quite unimportant in terms of how it may or may not contribute to revenue.

You are of course correct in that the distinction between AFOL and "just" adult LEGO aficionado may be irrelevant, but the difference between a casual buyer or someone who makes regular bulk purchases certainly is not. I believe that is ultimately still the point. When they talk about addressing adult demographics more specifically I'm pretty sure they are still referring to people with a stable, relatively high income that might be interested in buying a Bugatti or Batmobile once every blue moon, but not necessarily the longtime existing fans. However, by the same token that doesn't mean that you don't have to take care of both sides of the equation to maximize your cashing in. At the end of the day it's that fine line that they must walk.

Mylenium

[danth]

On 2/3/2020 at 3:01 AM, leafan said:

There is some people who like to crap on the AFOL community and their desires, but that article changes nothing, as mentioned in my previous reply on this thread.

Yeah your reply was one that I was thinking about. You seemed not happy about the number, and your arguments seemed pretty desperate.  

On 1/29/2020 at 5:16 PM, leafan said:

lol that figure is going to be thrown around now like it's a solid fact.

So you're sad that AFOLs here will be bringing up this number when people tell them they don't matter?

On 1/29/2020 at 5:16 PM, leafan said:

Internal Surveys = guess.

Lego's internal numbers are literally the best possible information that exists in the world for what people by what Legos and for who. They don't need to know about your single purchase in Tesco. Statistics is a thing, and it's not a "guess', it's actual math. Facts don't get much more solid that this number. 

On 1/29/2020 at 5:16 PM, leafan said:

That's Sales, and specifically in Germany.

Sales is literally the thing that matters here is it not? "Specifically in Germany" is true but -- let me guess -- you think it's lower, not higher or the same, in other countries?

[Masked Mini]

1 hour ago, danth said:

On 1/29/2020 at 7:16 PM, leafan said:

Internal Surveys = guess.

Lego's internal numbers are literally the best possible information that exists in the world for what people by what Legos and for who. They don't need to know about your single purchase in Tesco. Statistics is a thing, and it's not a "guess', it's actual math. Facts don't get much more solid that this number. 

Are we actually certain that it was TLG internal surveys?
The source listed, but not linked, by the author is "BEAT internal market research, period January – October, age of children 3 – 12 years"
I can't connect that to TLG myself, what entity is "BEAT"? I can conduct an internal survey regarding Lego purchasing patterns at my company too, results mean nothing.
It could just as well be an internal survey for "npdgroup Germany", the source of the rest of the numbers cited in the article. 
In fact, NONE of the listed sources include The Lego Group or Lego Germany Gmbh.

Quick google search for his "sources" on my lunch break fails to come up with any useful results.
Until his sources turn up the journalistic integrity of the article is highly questionable. 

Edited February 4, 2020 by Masked Mini
font formatting

[leafan]

Ok, before I reply to you @danth, how about you drop the passive agrresive tone and let me know if you've got a problem ok? Moving on...

2 hours ago, danth said:

Yeah your reply was one that I was thinking about. You seemed not happy about the number, and your arguments seemed pretty desperate.

I'm neither happy nor unhappy with the figure given, since it doesn't affect me. Personally, I'd be happy if people gave adult fans a little more credit and I do believe that it's larger worldwide than expected, in terms of revenue.

I think you're reading too much into my initial reply.

2 hours ago, danth said:

So you're sad that AFOLs here will be bringing up this number when people tell them they don't matter?

No, I'm simply trying to stop this info being mis-represented, by comments such as:

On 1/29/2020 at 11:05 PM, fred67 said:

I realize it seems like a ball-park, off the cuff value, it's interesting to find out we're like 10% of revenue.  I think a lot of AFOLs overestimate our importance.

and your own:

On 1/29/2020 at 11:46 PM, danth said:

I think we've been underestimated.10% is a huge chunk.

On 1/30/2020 at 12:41 AM, danth said:

10% of their revenue is half a billion dollars; they'd be crazy to ignore a market worth that.

Making out like it's 10% of global revenue.

2 hours ago, danth said:

Lego's internal numbers are literally the best possible information that exists in the world for what people by what Legos and for who.

According to who? I don't doubt that they have the best sales figures, but the only possible way to know the intended recipient of a purchase is to ask the person that it paying for it. They've never asked me - have they asked you? *They're guessing* based on probability and like I said, some limited-marked consumer feedback. It's an educated guess, but it's still a guess.

2 hours ago, danth said:

They don't need to know about your single purchase in Tesco.

If you took from my anecdote literally then you misunderstood. I was simply trying to show you why they have no clue who I'm buying for.

2 hours ago, danth said:

Statistics is a thing, and it's not a "guess', it's actual math. Facts don't get much more solid that this number.

Ok break it down for me. What is the solid number? So we have A) Number of sales - yes they'll have that figure (but lets say it's 10 million units for arguments sake), and B) Recipient of the sale - [insert solid math here].

= percentage figure of sales to AFOLs.

3 hours ago, danth said:

Sales is literally the thing that matters here is it not?

No, it's not. It's percentage of sales to AFOLs. See above response.

3 hours ago, danth said:

"Specifically in Germany" is true but -- let me guess -- you think it's lower, not higher or the same, in other countries?

Well I'm glad you conceded that point at least.

I don't know what it is in other countries and I don't have the data to base any guess on. I'm also too old to be led up the garden path.

2 hours ago, Masked Mini said:

Are we actually certain that it was TLG internal surveys?

Yeah I think so. The wording would be a bit strange if not, as internal could literally mean any business.

2 hours ago, Masked Mini said:

The source listed, but not linked, by the author is "BEAT internal market research, period January – October, age of children 3 – 12 years"
I can't connect that to TLG myself, what entity is "BEAT"? I can conduct an internal survey regarding Lego purchasing patterns at my company too, results mean nothing.

I presume that BEAT is just the data report created by the external company, NPD Group Germany. Their data is based on retail sales, but the age, gender and recipient of the sale is a guess based on the things I mentioned before; so in short, I agree it means very little.

[Driver Brandon Grumman]

C'mon guys! Let's be civil here! Whether its 5%, 10%, or even 50% that AFOLs make up, what matters is that Lego cares about us. Now let's all be cool.