modeling help, Triple expansion steam engine

[Bart]

I'm trying to build an old steam ship as a model, first in LDD to see if its plausible and to estimate the required parts. 

But I've run in to a tight spot. the engines (2) where triple expansion steam. 3 cylinders. 2,5m long 2m high 

scaling to 1:40 via http://studs.sariel.pl/

gives me approximately 8 studs long. 

Only I'm stuck at 10 (11), which wouldn't be a problem you'd think, but the engine room where they are going into is small and there is other equipment to place as well (or I'd like too)

So if there is anyone who has an idea how to downsize what I've got length wise. without losing the ability of the pistons going up and down when the crank rotates. 

 

best regards, Bart

Edited February 24, 2017 by Bart
moved picture to off EB host

[Tommy Styrvoky]

Here you go, I think everything should work correctly, though it would be a good idea to check it in real life. the front and rear axles for the crankshaft may need to be coupled by a solid axle with gears below, as the way the inner crank is designed, it has no rigid attachments between each lobe of the crank. Also now it has 120° crankshaft offset.

Triple expansion engine by Tommy Styrvoky, on Flickr

http://www.bricksafe.com/files/Tommy_styrvoky/Triple expansion engine.lxf

Edited February 9, 2017 by Tommy Styrvoky

[Bart]

Thanks Tommy!

This has given me some ideas to proceed.

[Bart]

Found a picture of the original engines, in the ship yard just before installation (1909)

 

What do you think?

I'm still wishing to add the two pumps(condensate and feed water to the boiler)  on the side of the condensor (I build in dark green) but I don't think I can pull off the lever system from the crosshead of the middle cylinder 

 

Edited February 13, 2017 by Bart

[Tommy Styrvoky]

  On 2/13/2017 at 9:40 PM, Bart said:

What do you think?

I'm still wishing to add the two pumps(condensate and feed water to the boiler)  on the side of the condensor (I build in dark green) but I don't think I can pull off the lever system from the crosshead of the middle cylinder 

 

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Looks good, I'm not sure how structurally strong they will be, though I was sort of lacking the context of the engines, could you provide further information of the lever system that you want to incorporate as my knowledge of steam engines is rather limited. such as an example from a different engine of the same style. How would these pumps operate, would it be a set of linkages connected to the low and mid pressure pistons?

could you provide an LDD file, it would make it easier to modify the design, as I believe there is a way to mount a connection off of it from the photos.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Tommy Styrvoky

[Bart]

I'll look up some information. I can look at the original blue prints too.

We used to share ldd files via brick link isn't it? Let's find out if I still have an account there. 

Copy paste the engine out of the mock up of the ship it's going in, I'm not ready to share that yet. 

 

Bart

[letsbuild]

How does a triple expansion engine work? What is it used in?

[Bart]

It's a steam engine. 

The high pressure steam (170lbs /12 bar in this example) enters the high pressure cylinder, the small one, expands a bit thereby moving the cylinder. Then goes to the middle intermediate cylinder and does the same again. Ending in the big low pressure one to give off the last energy. 

Then the steam goes into the condenser turning it back to water, before being recycled back into the boiler.

This model was used in a ship (build 1909 launched 1910)

But during the age of steam they where widely used for anything that needed to be moved by rotating.

The triple expansion is considered the high point en steam engine evolution.

After they went to turbines, but that's a whole different story.

On this model I left out the valves and valve arms riding on cams on the crankshaft, there is no space.

The small diagonal piece is supposed to be the lever to switch from forward to reverse. 

 

Bart

Edited February 14, 2017 by Bart

[Tommy Styrvoky]

  On 2/14/2017 at 6:33 AM, letsbuild said:

How does a triple expansion engine work? What is it used in?

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I found this GIF to be rather helpful, it's basically obtaining maximum efficiency from steam, rather than using a single piston, it uses three.

 

I'm not sure about bricklink for sharing files but I use bricksafe, and that works. Also learned a little bit more about these engines, didn't know the Titanic used a version of these with two low pressure pistons, I guess it makes sense for the time period, though I never really thought about it from an engineering standpoint. 

is this sort of what you wanted to have attached to the condenser?

Edited February 14, 2017 by Tommy Styrvoky

[Bart]

yes that's almost exactly whats its like.

 

More pictures of the blue prints of the steam engine, here http://weergang.tumblr.com/post/157240975815/weergang-lego-triple-expansion-scale-140-the

LDD of the engine as it is now: http://bricksafe.com/pages/Bart/triple-expansion-steam-engine

yes they are in principle the same as the engines of the Titanic, only would the engines from the titanic be 23 bricks high in this scale, the low pressure cylinder would be 8 studs wide alone. 

*although I think myself as knowledgeable when it comes to steam technology I'm not quit sure why they had air pumps.  It an misleading term for the condensate pump. http://www.thesteamboatingforum.net/technology/pumps.html

Bart

 

Edited February 14, 2017 by Bart

[Tommy Styrvoky]

I think this would work, I don't know if there's a better way to mount the walking beam.

http://www.bricksafe.com/files/Tommy_styrvoky/triple expansion steam engineV2.lxf

 

 

[Bart]

Ah you fixed it like that! the open space in the cross-head is used as a frame to knock the walking beam up and down. without a pin securing it in place. clever!

PS. how do you get such live like pictures out of a digital programme? I use LDD, is there a hidden feature or do you use a different programme?

Thats how they are situated into the engine room. 
on the left the boiler(room) as I have it now. 

Edited February 15, 2017 by Bart

[AkiyamaWataru]

There is a quite good renderer called bluerender. It takes the lxf und renders the image

[Tommy Styrvoky]

  On 2/15/2017 at 7:17 PM, Bart said:

Ah you fixed it like that! the open space in the cross-head is used as a frame to knock the walking beam up and down. without a pin securing it in place. clever!

PS. how do you get such live like pictures out of a digital programme? I use LDD, is there a hidden feature or do you use a different programme?

 

Thats how they are situated into the engine room. 
on the left the boiler(room) as I have it now. 

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You can either Use Bluerender if you want to work solely with LDD files, though I use the internal renderer pov ray via Stud.io http://studio.bricklink.com/v2/build/studio.page Or you could use Blender's Cycles animation program, by exporting from studio to Ldraw format, it can be rendered in Blender. This is more for if you want to rig/animate and achieve more realistic lighting via physically based rendering materials, though this setup is for more final product designs, and is more system intensive, though can produce better results.

Here's a couple comparisons, though not entirely of the same object, but it just shows the detail of each renderer.

Bluerender

Lego Porsche GT3 RS macpherson strut suspension by Tommy Styrvoky, on Flickr

POV-RAY from Stud.io

Lego IS-7 Turret WIP by Tommy Styrvoky, on Flickr

Blender's Cycle's render with Ldraw importer and PBR materials with HDRI lightbox

Lego IS-7 Turret WIP by Tommy Styrvoky, on Flickr

 

That's going to be massive when completed.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Tommy Styrvoky

[Bart]

Ah thanks I'll have a look at those render programmes

The whole ship is going to be 127 studs long and 21 wide, to keep it to scale. 

It's going to be a squeeze to get all the details in. 

The Lego ladders are already to wide imo. 

Bart. 

[Bart]

This bluerender is awesome!

Yes i'm just going to drop this like that. Now you might know what I ment with a tight fit for all the equipment. 

this is evolving in a wip topic more now, then just an help about the triple expansion, hope you don't mind.

Anyone daring to guess which ship it is? (hint its a famous Dutch ship)

Bart

 

[Edwin Korstanje]

Great work on her so far, learning all the rendering programs take some time and i have luck that my great friend JunkstyleGio do that for me.

[Bart]

  On 2/17/2017 at 9:30 PM, Edwin Korstanje said:

Great work on her so far, learning all the rendering programs take some time and i have luck that my great friend JunkstyleGio do that for me.

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Thanks! 
It was a bit of a huh? to figure out bluerender takes the view you closed the file with. and doesn't take into account the hide function. But it works.

Building to scale is weird, doors are now 2 studs wide. which at first was odd, but now fits the ship as it should, (as you can see above I left 4 studs space first) 
I think of myself of a bit of a chaotic builder, I work all directions at ones, and can go back to the structure to change things back and forth at any time. Or maybe I give myself impossible challenges, as in decks should be removable to see the inside, and engines should turn. 

This section is by far the easiest, as the ship is box shaped here, more forward its pointy but the sides remain quit vertical. towards the stern though, is going to be a challenge to get that into shape. 

Bart

 I just deleted the entire top deck by accident (all the yellow and green including the galley in the center)

[Tommy Styrvoky]

I personally prefer using POV ray in Stud.io, as it allows for live interface with the render viewport. If you want, maybe I Could use cycles to render the completed vessel in an ocean, though one of the minor issues with importing ldd to ldraw, is some part positions will have to be fixed, as the way part data is stored differently based on the models of the parts in each program.

[Bart]

That could be really nice Tommy, but let's finish the model first.

I learned yesterday I'm starting a new job next Saturday, and that will keep me away from home for the next 6 months.

So I don't know if I can upload any updatrs, I'll take my laptop with me to continue the build ofcourse. 

I work as an engineer on the ship I'm building here, only I build it in Lego as it left the shipyard in 1910.

But as I want to upgrade my sailing license I have to go work on a big ocean going ship for a while. 

Bart

[Bart]

I've rebuild most of it, changed some. But I could use some of your impout again, if you don't mind :)

I first build the two left sky lights, but it turned out to be a stud to wide. so I created the one on the right as an alternative (the small chimney is an add that I recently discoverd) 
But I'm a bit stuck on how in LDD to fit the 2x6 plate with holes on there. 
If anyone has an idea I'd be thankfull, I think that in real I could cook up something that would use gravity or friction somehow. 
 

Links automatically turn into pictures now? sorry if this is to big! 

 

ldd file in this folder: http://bricksafe.com/pages/Bart/triple-expansion-steam-engine

 

Bart

[Tommy Styrvoky]

What about this for a design? I guess you could use headlight stickers for the skylights. 

http://www.bricksafe.com/files/Tommy_styrvoky/Deck skylights.lxf

 

[DaFokka]

  On 2/17/2017 at 8:43 PM, Bart said:

Anyone daring to guess which ship it is? (hint its a famous Dutch ship)

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The steam boat of sinterklaas?

[Bart]

  On 2/22/2017 at 12:31 PM, DaFokka said:

The steam boat of sinterklaas?

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Indeed it is :) although that oldman didn't use it till around somewhere end 1950 or 1960 

[Bart]

As it is now. (the engines outside are copies of the ones inside which the render software takes into the frame.

What I just build, the forward officer cabins. 
I realised here that the hull is a plate to narrow near the engine room/boiler room, which I might fix later, or not as I just build this for my own pleasure.

I'm sorry Tommy I didn't go with your input, I DO appreciate the input though. 
The skylights are sunk inside the deck and are hold in place by gravity. the small chimney sit on a 1x2 with one stud in center behind it appearing to be connected but not. 
Although the black stanchions that are in real live there to hold up the hatches are too short like this, I do like the look. And with this design the hatches can't open anyway. 

Top view of the Engineroom and others. Name tags on alot of the equipment I've put in. 
the two spaces port and starboard of the boiler are the coal stores. 
All the walls run for and aft are connected to the bulkhead, I think they supply sufficient strenght if ever build out of real bricks.

The aft engineroom bulkhead needs some re-designing as there are cabinets against that bulkhead, which I want to build into it. 

 

any C&C is welcome. any closeups on some details can be made as well!

Bart

 

PS should the topic name be changed? something along the lines of "[MOC](LDD) 1:40 model of the steam ship Hydrograaf as build in 1910"