What is the difference between British and English etc?

[Col. Whipstick]

Okay, obviously this has come up a few times before in this forum and no doubt a lot of members have heard me moan over this but nonetheless I feel it is worth the moan. However rather than continually moan I've worked on a map some time ago but thought I'd post it here to help visually explain the difference between English and British etc and why it's important to get it right.

Without going too far back into history because it gets very very complicated but working within what is roughly the timeline of our forum here's a crash course in the recent history of the British Isles. Basically the two main islands that make up the British Isles are Erie/Ireland and Albion/Great Britain, the Great part comes from the need to distinguish Britain the island from Brittany (now part of France). Basically the names of these two islands are as much geographical names as political. During the dark ages England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland were formed as independent kingdoms though not without lengthy wars between various fractions prior to this. During the 1100's England (Now under the rule of the Normans) invaded, conquered and annexed Wales and subsequently although Wales has maintained a somewhat more distinctive Celtic, rather than Saxon culture and language it became fused into The Kingdom of England. England (Still under the rule of the Normans) then attempted the same invasion of Scotland which largely failed.

Thus towards the end of the medieval era and the start of 'The Golden Age' and 'Elizabethan England' there was The Kingdom of England which included Wales and Ireland as a colony and the fully independent though extremely intwined Kingdom of Scotland. By this time however the Normans no longer rule Britain and likewise Norman parts of France are now a complete part of the Kingdom of France. This period continues right up until 1707 AD when James I - King of Scotland inherits the throne of England and he replaces the Tudors with his royal family - the Stewarts and politically unifies the two countries creating the country - Great Britain This is seen in the creation of Union Jack flag etc and so loosely speaking the combined Welsh, English and Scottish as well as their outlying dependencies are reffered to as 'British' which compliments the geographical name of the larger island. Ireland then in effect becomes a British rather than English colony but it is recognised as a seperate 'home country' in the same way as England, Wales or Scotland.

In the early 20th century the southern portion of Ireland gained full independence and formed The Republic of Ireland whilst the northern part, largely Protestant remained under the protection of the British Crown and thus a newer political term is used being The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, previously the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. This means that in effect if N. Ireland joined the Republic of Ireland the 'United Kingdom' would cease to exist and the country would go back to being called 'Great Britain' and likewise the union jack would take a step backwards.

The outlying islands often regarded as tax havens such as The Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey are countries within their own right and in particular the Channel Islands - J and G because of Norman history were linked to the English Crown so they maintain a form of Federation with the UK. So I hope that clears things up for a few folks. Sorry for the lengthy lesson but it's really really hard to condense this sort of information, obviously I could go into a hell of a lot more detail but this should do.

[Peg Leg Pascoe]

Good explanation but don't forget the Cornish Celts! I live in Cornwall, England and strongly believe that we should be a separate legal entity from England.

Theres more on it here

We had lots of Pirates come from down here as we're right at the bottom of England and there's some great ships in a town called Charlestown about 15miles from where i live. Theres an Article on it here

Just my 2 cents lol and I'm really bored atm X-D

Oh and there's also a pirate locked up there named Peg Leg Pascoe and as my surname's Pascoe i thought it would be quite fitting as a username *sweet*

Edited December 28, 2007 by Peg Leg Pascoe

[Mister Phes]

At least its an educational moan but I'm afraid I still don't understand X-D

[Col. Whipstick]

Good explanation but don't forget the Cornish Celts! I live in Cornwall, England and strongly believe that we should be a separate legal entity from England.

Theres more on it here

We had lots of Pirates come from down here as we're right at the bottom of England and there's some great ships in a town called Charlestown about 15miles from where i live. Theres an Article on it here

Just my 2 cents lol and I'm really bored atm X-D

Oh and there's also a pirate locked up there named Peg Leg Pascoe and as my surname's Pascoe i thought it would be quite fitting as a username *sweet*

Dude, I know all about the Cornish Celts but the simple reality is I'm trying to keep this all as simple as possible given about 90% of the world out there thinks we all speak the Queen's English, that London is our only city and Scotland is a state in England. Anyway, the time of Cornwall being independent of the seven Saxon kingdoms predates my explanation. You'll note I said nothing about the Roman province of Britannia etc, how there were 7 Saxon kingdoms etc etc etc. Anyway, this wasn't meant as a political discussion forum for every Home Country Nationalist etc so I'm not going to get into and I want to immediately discourage any comments about how one group violated another etc. Save all that for another forum, this is just so our American and European friends can stop using English as an adjective for British and vice-versa which they do continually.

At least its an educational moan but I'm afraid I still don't understand X-D

Don't start... That was as absolutely as short and sweet as I could keep things for people's extremely limited 21st century concentration.

Edited December 28, 2007 by Col. Whipstick

[Peg Leg Pascoe]

Dude, I know all about the Cornish Celts but the simple reality is I'm trying to keep this all as simple as possible given about 90% of the world out there thinks we all speak the Queen's English, that London is our only city and Scotland is a state in England. Anyway, the time of Cornwall being independent of the seven Saxon kingdoms predates my explanation. You'll note I said nothing about the Roman province of Britannia etc, how there were 7 Saxon kingdoms etc etc etc. Anyway, this wasn't meant as a political discussion forum for every Home Country Nationalist etc so I'm not going to get into and I want to immediately discourage any comments about how one group violated another etc. Save all that for another forum, this is just so our American and European friends can stop using English as an adjective for British and vice-versa which they do continually.

Haha, i see but i believe your fighting a losing battle man :-D

[Mister Phes]

Don't start... That was as absolutely as short and sweet as I could keep things for people's extremely limited 21st century concentration.

Surely you can get it down to one paragraph.

[Tanotrooper]

and don't forget about the Isle of Sark! |-/ we had to learn about it for the exams... It has an impressive army of 40 men still armed with muskets...

TT

[Sir Norman Ray]

I think of it like this:

England: Gondor

Scotland: Dwarves

Wales: Elves

Ireland: Rohan

...

France: Mordor :-P

[Lord Of Pies]

Good job Col. Whipstick, it is good to see that at least someone can be bothered to try and point out the differences between British and English, as it is important when referring to history and present day politics and military.

On a side note, I found out that I was 1/16th French today!

[Capn Frank]

I think of it like this:

England: Gondor

Scotland: Dwarves

Wales: Elves

Ireland: Rohan

...

France: Mordor :-P

:-D :-D

Careful Sah,

don't want the emperor of france to come after you. ;-)

P

[Sir Norman Ray]

I fear not, the Short Corporal. The man only took the world as every army bar the British was stupid and thought with the old tactics.

[TheCloneWalker]

Let me make this toot-sweet.

England is England.

England, Scotland and Wales, plus Northern Ireland in most (if not all) cases, is Great Britain.

Abridging On!

TCW

[Sir Norman Ray]

Let me make this toot-sweet.

England is England.

England, Scotland and Wales, plus Northern Ireland in most (if not all) cases, is Great Britain.

Abridging On!

TCW

Wrong.

England/Great Britain = England/Great Britain

England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland = United Kingdom

The UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Pakistan and lots more = British Commonwealth/Empire

Falklands = Dark dingy islands covered in rain and sleet that the UK and Argentina (don't cry for me) both argue is theirs.

[blueandwhite]

I'm sorry to say it; but most people simply don't care. Just as you aren't necessarily sensitive to the diverse political and social histories of other nations, others don't know a thing about Great Britian or the United Kingdom. As a Canadian, the distinction between the UK and Great Britian simply isn't that important to me just as Canada's disputes with our native peoples, Quebec or Newfoundland are undoubtedly irrelevant to you. For most of us foreigners, this just doesn't stand out as being important. My family moved to Canada over 150 years ago, and we haven't looked back.

[Sir Norman Ray]

I'm sorry to say it; but most people simply don't care. Just as you aren't necessarily sensitive to the diverse political and social histories of other nations, others don't know a thing about Great Britian or the United Kingdom. As a Canadian, the distinction between the UK and Great Britian simply isn't that important to me just as Canada's disputes with our native peoples, Quebec or Newfoundland are undoubtedly irrelevant to you. For most of us foreigners, this just doesn't stand out as being important. My family moved to Canada over 150 years ago, and we haven't looked back.

Personally, I don't agree with that. As a person who loves History, I enjoy looking these sorts of things up and learning about them. I enjoy, for example, learning about the American Civil War. It had nothing to do with the UK really, but it's still an interesting topic. I also enjoy learning about Russia, its background, it's changes in politics and such. It also allows me to act all high and mighty when people say "Oh, World War 2 wouldn't have happened if Hitler hadn't existed." It gives me the excuse to say something like "Well, then Europe would have become devastated by the Great Anglo-Soviet war of 1942, ushering in a new era for the British Empire blah blah blah."

So yeah, it may not feel important to you, but it's nice to know something. Otherwise you drop into the classic sort of approach when it comes to the English opinion on France. "Oh, don't like THEM, bunch of French poofs they are. Why? Cos their FRENCH. What else of a reason do I need?"

"Canadians? All they are are the bastard child of us and the French. I tell ya, if it wasn't for us, they'd be eating frogs and laughing like idiots."

Please Note: I am not really that rude or offensive.

[blueandwhite]

Personally, I don't agree with that. As a person who loves History, I enjoy looking these sorts of things up and learning about them. I enjoy, for example, learning about the American Civil War. It had nothing to do with the UK really, but it's still an interesting topic. I also enjoy learning about Russia, its background, it's changes in politics and such. It also allows me to act all high and mighty when people say "Oh, World War 2 wouldn't have happened if Hitler hadn't existed." It gives me the excuse to say something like "Well, then Europe would have become devastated by the Great Anglo-Soviet war of 1942, ushering in a new era for the British Empire blah blah blah."

I'm not suggesting that nobody feels the way you do. What I am suggesting is that a great many persons see this the way The Clone Walker does. The subtler nuances of the British political landscape simply don't mean much to most people. To expect others to understand or appreciate that history is probably asking a bit much. Heck, the distinction between the United Kingdom and Great Britian is still giving me a headache.

So yeah, it may not feel important to you, but it's nice to know something. Otherwise you drop into the classic sort of approach when it comes to the English opinion on France. "Oh, don't like THEM, bunch of French poofs they are. Why? Cos their FRENCH. What else of a reason do I need?"

Funny, that about sums up the classic attitude of English Canadians in regards to Quebecers.

"Canadians? All they are are the bastard child of us and the French. I tell ya, if it wasn't for us, they'd be eating frogs and laughing like idiots."

Please Note: I am not really that rude or offensive.

Of course, if that were the case many of us Canucks might not have migrated here to begin with. North America is predominantly inhabited by immigrants afterall. For most of us, being a Canadian means first and foremost stepping away from your ancestoral homeland. Heck, if you guys didn't bother to show up in Canada that would have put me in a bit of a spot as my family tree is predominantly English with a spot of Scottish for good measure. So when you say 'us' you are actually referring to my ancestors.

Ironically, I would love to speak french.

[Sir Norman Ray]

Firstly, I would love to speak German or Russian, they just seem a lot more closer to me.

I do understand your point of view, believe me on that. I am always in two minds about everything. I can understand that which great old fart defeated another one can be annoying at times. But I suppose the problem here for us British/English is current debate for those that want to break up the Union, Scotland being the main party for independence. I used to support the idea, but now I see what may happen, not just the Union but also Scotland.

And it's nice to know the good old English tradition of pig headed pointless racism still exists in Canada.

[Col. Whipstick]

Good job Col. Whipstick, it is good to see that at least someone can be bothered to try and point out the differences between British and English, as it is important when referring to history and present day politics and military.

On a side note, I found out that I was 1/16th French today!

My condolences Lord of Pies, do you think it's contageous, have you sought a second opinion? X-D

And what's with all this nationalist crap getting into 'my thread' X-D

If people want to reffer to Scots, English, Irish, Americans, Canadians, etc etc etc as turds find another thread, this is meant as a basic denotative explanation of cultural adjectives surrounding the British Isles.

[Mister Phes]

Yes indeed I think we are moving away from what started as a very educational thread.

If one does not care about the "subtler nuances of the British political landscape*" then that's fine, but this thread is to educate those who wish to be more informed.

* I like how that's phrased X-D

[Col. Whipstick]

Yes indeed I think we are moving away from what started as a very educational thread.

If one does not care about the "subtler nuances of the British political landscape*" that's fine, but this thread is for those who be more informed.

* I like how that's phrased X-D

Isn't nuance such a cool word... Finally I have an excuse to wear a tie when I say it. X-D

[Mister Phes]

What strange nuances you have Col. Whipstick :-D

[Col. Whipstick]

What strange nuances you have Col. Whipstick :-D

I find I think better with a pillow on my head, or that might just be me looking for excuses to stay in bed... I'll have to ask that other Col. Whipstick... the evil twin you recall. *Hears the theme tune to the twilight zone somewhere in the background*

[Lord Of Pies]

My condolences Lord of Pies, do you think it's contageous, have you sought a second opinion? X-D

And what's with all this nationalist crap getting into 'my thread' X-D

Funnily enough, a day after I found out I was 1/16th French I came down with the flu, a temperature and a sore throat, I think I am allergic! X-D

Anyway: Back on topic time!

[Dovchenko]

Funnily enough, a day after I found out I was 1/16th French I came down with the flu, a temperature and a sore throat, I think I am allergic! X-D

Anyway: Back on topic time!

Yesterday I found out that I was half islander, and I had a strange will to cannibalise my dog. Go figure.

;-)

[Col. Whipstick]

Yesterday I found out that I was half islander, and I had a strange will to cannibalise my dog. Go figure.

;-)

*Looks at you, takes a couple steps backwards and towards the door*