Is 12 axles too much?

[aminnich]

Hey guys, im loving this contest and i am already thinking about my next build.... of course a crane

The things i have built for my contest entry that was just built not in order are a bit too big for what the size crane im building... so i need bigger and their is no time for it for this contest. I am going to finish the trailer crane dont worry.

But i am wondering if 12 axles is a but too big??? I am getting another 42009 in the mail soon because of the number of parts that would be helpful. Im am just looking for your thoughts on this. I have not found a 12 axle mobile crane on Google images, so my build would not be built after a crane, it would be a free build.

[N-4K0]

If you wanna make a mobile crane with 12 axles, then do that could be fun to see how that would work out.

[dr_spock]

12 axles may not be enough for a mobile harbour crane.

[aminnich]

It would be a mobile crane, basically 42009 on some good steroids

[dr_spock]

Something like Gottwald MK1500?

[Kman860]

I would love to see this happen!

[vliet]

I have seen a 9 axle crane on the highway last week, think it was a Liebherr, from Mammoet. Never seen anything bigger in real-life

[Saberwing40k]

There is, as a matter of fact, a real crane with 12 axles: the Zoomlion QAY 2000. As its name implies, it can lift 2000 tons at 3 meters, making it the strongest wheeled mobile crane in the world. At least, that's what the company claims. There is little information on the real crane on the internet, and I can not find any confirmation that anybody has actually used it.

It's a huge, ugly monstrosity

I also have been planning a version of a crane with 12 axles. (For more than two years now.), but mine is not based on this. Rather, my version would be a theoretical 2300 ton capacity Terex crane.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Saberwing40k

[rollermonkey]

Maybe the strongest wheeled hydraulic crane, but there are other types that are stronger.

20,000 Ton capable portal crane:

Edited October 11, 2015 by rollermonkey

[Kristof]

I guess you mean 12 axis on 62.4 wheels?

I'll be speaking of myself. I personaly don't see much sense in building such model. It doesn't add much functionality, only boosts the size and that's not the fact which would impress me. On contrary, you end up with model that can barely be handeled, driven or transported.

The reason for more axles on real mobile cranes is to enable for bigger superstructure, thus more height and lift capacity to the crane. With lego though, you already touch limits of plastic rigidity with smaller cranes than 12 axis monster. And seing the problems you deal with on your contest crane, going bigger could be suicide :)

I could understand, however, that you build this as a challenge to yourself. Other than that, I can't think of one reason why that should be better than some smaller but well functional crane.

Maybe scaling whole thing down so you end up with decent sized model. That could give some interesting results I think :)

[Zerobricks]

I'd say build whatever floats your goat, just dont overcomplicate for the sake of complexion.

[doug72]

12 axles may not be enough for a mobile harbour crane.

I have always wanted to make a Liebherr 550 mobile harbour crane - several are at work near me at the Port of Tyne and I watch the progress of one being built at the Liebherr factory in Sunderland when I am out cycling the banks of the R. Wear.

Quickly realised it would be a task beyond me. Especially trying to make the tower and the multiple individual steered wheel units.

So settled for a simpler build for TC8

Edited October 11, 2015 by Doug72

[aminnich]

Thanks for all the ideas and comments on this crazy huge idea. I will definitely be using the Zoomlion QAY 2000 as a guide for this build. I was going to do normal outriggers, but im thinking they would be puny for this crane, "X" is the way to go.

As for the problems i have had with this contest build, i would love to have not a "WIP" but a "Please help me" for this mega build. I know the biggest problem will be the amount of weight on the crane. Their are ways around it like having parts of the crane on a semi, but id rather it be self contained.

Of course this is all just my thoughts, so we will see when this contest is over and i have all my parts back and ready to go!

[MaxSupercars]

Zoomlion QAY 2000 is really impressive but for the scale with 62.4 wheels it's too large for Lego I think... Everythink will be too heavy if you want it to make fully functional...

Max...

Edited October 11, 2015 by MaxSupercars

[aminnich]

I would have to make it with 62.4 tires, i dont have 24 unimog tires

[MaxSupercars]

No not Unimog wheels! They are too big!

I meant the opposite... smaller crane with smaller wheels!

1.) Definitely I would start with the boom in this case... It will be very heavy a you have to raise it first... You need special linear actuators... either self made like small 2 section booms with racks or use for Ex. custom non Lego 3D printed from Effermann via shapeways.com as I did it...

2.) Then you have to extend the boom and manage the heavy counterweight...

3.) Strong X outridgers

4.) When this will be done, chassis will be the simplest thing... although you will need minimum 2 XL Motors if not 4 to move the whole vehicle...

Here 3D printed huge LAs... (Not my MOC)

Printed by: shapeways.com

Design: Effermann

In my Mobile crane I use 2 of them!

Mine is something like Liebherr LTM 11200 with 9 wheels... (not on image)

Max...

Edited October 11, 2015 by MaxSupercars

[aminnich]

I was going to use my 8 actuator idea for this build, but if that doesn't work I will have to use a non Lego actuator

[Technic Jim]

You could build an interesting crane with 12 axles but, as other people here have said, it would be too big. You could scale it down onto some tiny wheels (personally, i was thinking you could use 30.4 X 14) which could be interesting

[bonox]

that chinese 12 axle unit is interesting, but I doubt it would be street legal in many parts of the world. Too long, too high, too much boom overhang. The most conservative estimate of axle loading at 8 tonnes (assuming the 96000KG stamp on the door is the gross weight) is pushing a lot of limits as well.

Their brochure touts it as a fast turnaround alternative to crawlers due to quick rigging and setup time, but given permits for moving, limited speed (probably no more than 50km/h if that), daylight hours only and the size of the support crew required just for the ballast, I wonder whether the day or so setup time for a crawler would disappear in the travel time for this AT unit, where the crawler went by 'normal' trucks.

They must have done the numbers and believe they can sell enough, but I wonder if they're expected to be domestic sales only given it seems to be specifically aimed at wind turbine installations. Be an interesting thing to model but as krisandkris12 says, handling it would be ridiculous. Not just as a play thing, but trying to build it! I envy LiftingBricks as much for his techniques as well as his designs. Still, if you want to take it on, more power to you and good luck

[Kman860]

Here is my 12 axle crane, with raising/lowering outriggers that swing out, a raising/lowering arm, raising/lowering hook, and rotating superstructure. Instead of running the wire, I just circled what controls what

12 Axle crane 2 by kristiankocjancic, on Flickr

12 Axle crane 1 by kristiankocjancic, on Flickr

12 Axle crane 3 by kristiankocjancic, on Flickr

[Saberwing40k]

that chinese 12 axle unit is interesting, but I doubt it would be street legal in many parts of the world. Too long, too high, too much boom overhang. The most conservative estimate of axle loading at 8 tonnes (assuming the 96000KG stamp on the door is the gross weight) is pushing a lot of limits as well.

Their brochure touts it as a fast turnaround alternative to crawlers due to quick rigging and setup time, but given permits for moving, limited speed (probably no more than 50km/h if that), daylight hours only and the size of the support crew required just for the ballast, I wonder whether the day or so setup time for a crawler would disappear in the travel time for this AT unit, where the crawler went by 'normal' trucks.

They must have done the numbers and believe they can sell enough, but I wonder if they're expected to be domestic sales only given it seems to be specifically aimed at wind turbine installations. Be an interesting thing to model but as krisandkris12 says, handling it would be ridiculous. Not just as a play thing, but trying to build it! I envy LiftingBricks as much for his techniques as well as his designs. Still, if you want to take it on, more power to you and good luck

Funnily enough, the magic number most crane makers go for is 10 tons per axle, which would mean that the 96 ton QAY 2000 is within limits. Although, I have actually heard the weight cited as 325 tons, but I don't know if that is with ballast or not. 96 tons sounds suspiciously low, I'd say it would be more like 120. By the way, where did you find the brochure?, I'd like to take a look at it.

As for the fast turnaround times in relation to crawler cranes, a 2000 ton crawler crane would take multiple weeks to set up, not a day. Plus, you'd have at least ten or so truck loads to keep track of, possibly more, with a crawler crane, whereas with this you'd probably have 4 or 5. I thought pulling permits for this thing would be ridiculous, but it might not. Oh, and about the domestic market, do you have any idea how huge China is? They're investing billions, if not trillions in infrastructure, and that is what this crane is capitalizing on. And, I don't think it's aimed at just wind turbines. I think I read an article saying it could be used in many applications, including chemical and nuclear plants. As a matter of fact, the 2000 ton capacity is not that significant, relative to the crane's ability to lift things at larger radii. Plus, a crane like this would be much easier and faster to move on a job site, in relation to a crawler crane, because the boom does not need to be dismantled.

[bonox]

Hi Saber

not a brochure so much as blurb from the company making the hydraulics for it

http://www.linde-hyd...40-002b03edd46c

mostly talks about use in turbines being height/capacity limited at 3MW units, although any crane can be used for a much larger array of tasks. It appears as though this is still a prototype even two years after that was published and nothing more is said on the manufacturers site other than a recent test

http://en.zoomlion.c...elease_text.htm

Part of where I was going with the axle loading was not related to road use, but part of the ''all terrain" title. Some parts of the world have great sealed roads (my place is not one of them) that can support 150psi tyres. The softer unsealed ground that these cranes are asked to work on can't support anything like that and if you need to build a road for it (and you may need lots and lots and lots of mats to do it) then the crawler again wins on footprint.

Don't forget as well that a 2000t class crawler wouldn't be needed for the equivalent job. You'd get away with a much smaller unit since the lattice boom cranes have much better lift height and load-moment performance than the mobiles. The crawler would be 2000t at possibly 110m+ boom height, but the mobile would be stuck at close to zero boom extension, as shown in that press release link photo. (compare to a Manitowoc 31000 for example https://www.manitowo...e-boom-crawlers). That QAY2000 is doing 750t at 10 metre radius -> something a smaller crawler would laugh at. An added performance benchmark for that kind of load moment performance is that lampson used to advertise their weights as lift and carry, meaning you could use a quite small crawler compared to a mobile since the mobile would need a much bigger load moment capability as you can't re-position mid-lift.

I was just googling around that QAY2000 description when I found their time comparison. I'm a little enthusiastic with the crawler assembly, but it's not crazy when you think of moving on a wind farm site where there may only be 200-2000m between successive lifts.

no doubt it's an impressive bit of kit - i just don't see a market outside china, which means all the (practically zero) published info so far is chest beating "look at me" stuff rather than a design intended to be sold in western markets. I did see a significant South African company influence in one link though, so it's possible.

Something else - searching for models of it came up with this:

http://forum.dhsdiec...=posts&t=134161

It's hard to tell from your pics, but I don't think it's a 12axle crane as much as a 9 axle carrier with rigid link attached 3 axle trailer for carrying the boom. Is that how you'd view it?

the Leibherr LTM11200 also has an operating weight of 108t (12t/axle) and it's 'only' 1200t class. I think the real weight is much higher as you've noted and the 96t is only the carrier weight, not that of the carrier plus boom. This thing would have to transport boom separate as well, which requires additional heavy lift gear just like a crawler.

http://www.liebherr..../measure-metric

In the end, it's all a bit moot with the nil data available for it and the fact that most turbines are installed at heights over 130m, requiring boom extensions for both types.

Edited October 12, 2015 by bonox

[aminnich]

So what im getting from all this, is that it would be crazy to build such a huge crane, well that makes me want to build it even more I have another 42009 on the way from amazon so i will hvae the number of wheels i need along with more parts (because this thing will be using them all haha

[Saberwing40k]

Hi Saber

not a brochure so much as blurb from the company making the hydraulics for it

http://www.linde-hyd...40-002b03edd46c

mostly talks about use in turbines being height/capacity limited at 3MW units, although any crane can be used for a much larger array of tasks. It appears as though this is still a prototype even two years after that was published and nothing more is said on the manufacturers site other than a recent test

http://en.zoomlion.c...elease_text.htm

Part of where I was going with the axle loading was not related to road use, but part of the ''all terrain" title. Some parts of the world have great sealed roads (my place is not one of them) that can support 150psi tyres. The softer unsealed ground that these cranes are asked to work on can't support anything like that and if you need to build a road for it (and you may need lots and lots and lots of mats to do it) then the crawler again wins on footprint.

Don't forget as well that a 2000t class crawler wouldn't be needed for the equivalent job. You'd get away with a much smaller unit since the lattice boom cranes have much better lift height and load-moment performance than the mobiles. The crawler would be 2000t at possibly 110m+ boom height, but the mobile would be stuck at close to zero boom extension, as shown in that press release link photo. (compare to a Manitowoc 31000 for example https://www.manitowo...e-boom-crawlers). That QAY2000 is doing 750t at 10 metre radius -> something a smaller crawler would laugh at. An added performance benchmark for that kind of load moment performance is that lampson used to advertise their weights as lift and carry, meaning you could use a quite small crawler compared to a mobile since the mobile would need a much bigger load moment capability as you can't re-position mid-lift.

I was just googling around that QAY2000 description when I found their time comparison. I'm a little enthusiastic with the crawler assembly, but it's not crazy when you think of moving on a wind farm site where there may only be 200-2000m between successive lifts.

no doubt it's an impressive bit of kit - i just don't see a market outside china, which means all the (practically zero) published info so far is chest beating "look at me" stuff rather than a design intended to be sold in western markets. I did see a significant South African company influence in one link though, so it's possible.

Something else - searching for models of it came up with this:

http://forum.dhsdiec...=posts&t=134161

It's hard to tell from your pics, but I don't think it's a 12axle crane as much as a 9 axle carrier with rigid link attached 3 axle trailer for carrying the boom. Is that how you'd view it?

the Leibherr LTM11200 also has an operating weight of 108t (12t/axle) and it's 'only' 1200t class. I think the real weight is much higher as you've noted and the 96t is only the carrier weight, not that of the carrier plus boom. This thing would have to transport boom separate as well, which requires additional heavy lift gear just like a crawler.

http://www.liebherr..../measure-metric

In the end, it's all a bit moot with the nil data available for it and the fact that most turbines are installed at heights over 130m, requiring boom extensions for both types.

Well, it is a bit moot, but you are forgetting the fact that almost all crawler cranes need extensive cribbing, to support the weight. Also, most crawler cranes actually have a lower overturning moment than a comparable mobile crane, meaning that a larger one has to be used. But, your point about pick and carry still stands.

[aminnich]

I quick looked at the axle thread and didn't see anything. Is their a steering driven axle using the 13L gear rack?? I'm afraid that 2 drove axles won't be enough, so I'll power a few of the steering axles.