Could TLG Ever Market a Technic Set Sold by an AFOL?

[DLuders]

On Eurobricks, TechnicBricks, and other Lego Technic forums, there have been VERY COOL creations that (arguably) are equal to or superior to the Technic offerings sold by The Lego Group (TLG). Note that the "Market Street" Lego City Set #10190 was created by a Lego fan (according to http://www.brickset.com/detail/?Set=10190-1 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lego_Modular_Houses ). TLG marketed it for sale around the world, to get MUCH GREATER visibility than online forums can. Although Technic AFOLs like Jurgen Krooshoop, Paul Kmiec ("Sariel"), "Crowkillers", and many others have made their MOCs accessible to us AFOLs, why can't TLG approach these talented builders and see what it would take to market their creations to the world as official Lego kits? "Blakbird" (Eric Albrecht) and "Sariel" are both members of the TLG's Technic Designers group ( http://technic.lego.com/en-us/Designers/Bios/Default.aspx ). What kind of suggestions are made (back and forth) to improve TLG's Technic lineup?

I know that some of the designs for the popular "Little Devil", "Lamborghini Gallardo", and other MOCs are copyrighted by their designers. However, if those rights could be transferred to TLG (with appropriate compensation, of course), they could deliver sets to the general public that could GREATLY ENHANCE the number of Technic fans out there. EXPANDABLE sets (which could be built with or without Power Functions elements) could satisfy BOTH the youngster without a lot of money to spend AND the AFOL who has the means to motorize the same MOC.

At least in the U.S., TLG's sales in 2009 was up a whopping 31% ( http://finance.yahoo.com/news/LEGO-Systems...ml?x=0&.v=1 ), even in this Recession. So, it's not like TLG doesn't have the means to expand their lineup. Although the "Limited Edition" Race Truck #8041 ( http://shop.lego.com/Product/?p=8041&d=18 ) is a step in the right direction, there are SO MANY MOCs out there that are equal to (or better than) this set.

In the February 2010 Lego Technic Challenge, there were many AFOLs who were hoping for recognition by TLG for their "Flying Functions" MOCs (and possibly, having TLG offer them as official sets someday). What do you think the obstacles are to marketing a "Market Street"-type set for TECHNIC fans? Can "Blakbird" offer an inside perspective to TLG's design and marketing process?

Edited February 26, 2010 by dluders

[Big Cam]

My guess is cost.

Not to bash Technic at all, but I have a feeling it is not as big of a seller compared to the regular LEGO line.

The cost involved with buying the rights probably doesn't factor in to their budget for developing new sets.

That's just my guess, adn you have a good idea, if cost effective they should, because the AFOL's know LEGO best.

[Musikfreak]

Not to bash Technic at all, but I have a feeling it is not as big of a seller compared to the regular LEGO line.

While that is true, technic also has the biggest percentage of AFOLs among the buyers so it would fit here better than in a normal Citiyline.

However: In the End Lego is a toy for children. And while a lot of children can still build something like Market Street or even the UCS Models (because they are straight forward and progress can be seen very easily) Technic is a lot more complex and sometimes it all comes together just in the last few steps. I fear a big technic set just woudn't be adequate for children at all and that's why they don't do it. I bet Legos designers could easily come up with some supercomplex stuff which could rival some of the best MOCs.

Edited February 26, 2010 by Musikfreak

[GT-Vince]

I think that the parts count for the MOC's you speak of (eg Little Devil and Lambo), is to big to be manufactured als official set. Like Sariel and Blakbird, these builders create the most beautiful MOC's, and use lot's of pneumatics and PF for just one model.

Like Sariel's Snow Groomer (11 PF motors, 2 LA's and 7 pneumatic cylinders, and compressor pumps) it is likely that selling al these parts in a single (official) set would make for a very expensive (perhaps even unaffordable) set.

Here and there I read discussions on pricing of sets like the motorized bulldozer and the remotely controlled excavator (2H2010), some people consider these to be to steep.

Like Musicfreak said, it's still a toy. And even that I would buy a set like Sariel's Snow Groomer if it were to be released officially, probably at whatever cost, I can easily believe that there are persons who would rather spend that kind of money on something else.

From my personal experience I can say that my son loves his Star Wars sets, and that he receives them as gifts on special occasions (birthday's,...). But his aunts and uncles prefer to give him a smaller set, and some money for other things, whereas me and my (lovely ) wife rather tend to purchase larger sets (one at a time) for him.

Greetz

[TechnicJuan]

I have built Paul's Lamborghini Gallardo and I could knock off 50-75 pieces from that model(which I already have) without taking anything away from it's appearance. For instance there are 24 parts used just for the wheel decorations. He also has more pins used that are actually needed. When you talk about the part count, there are at least 600 parts consisting of Pins, and small axles. This model would be right around the part count similar to the Enzo Ferrari and 599 GTB sets. The design is very good and I could see this model being an official Lego model with 1400 pieces. I also have been trying to build the little devil car. That is a nice MOC.

[DLuders]

In September 2009 (less than 6 months ago), TechnicBricks did a recent poll on "How Much Would You Pay for a TECHNIC Exclusive Set?" ( http://technicbricks.blogspot.com/2009/09/...much-would.html ). Out of 339 total votes cast, 19% wanted to only spend up to US$150, 17% would be willing to spend US$150-$250, 25% would spend US$250-$300, 9% would spend US$300-$400, and 28% would spend over US$400.

For those buying in Euros, the spread was: 19% would spend no more than 170 Euros, 16% would spend 170-250 Euros, 29% would spend 250-350 Euros, 12% would spend 350-450 Euros, and 21% would spend above 450 Euros.

So, the demand seems to be out there. Honestly, getting all of the parts to build Crowkiller's Lamborghini Gallardo, or Jurgen Krooshoop's "Little Devil", costs several more than US$300. Using the "Little Devil" model as an example, if Mr. Krooshoop and TLG were willing to make a deal, the model could possibly be offered as a non-motorized version WITH AN OPTION of adding Power Functions elements. That could be the best of both worlds -- lower cost (for those who don't want to spend much) and higher functionality (for those willing to buy the PF 8293 Power Functions Motor Set)....

[Tropy]

Only the Star War saga has, I believe, the adequate number of adult AFOL (much bigger than technic in absolute numbers) able to sustain a UCS collection with 4000+ pcs and a retail cost of 300$+, that is the reason probably.

I also would love to have bigger and more complex sets, nevertheless i have to admit that the last truck 8258 for example is already at the par with MOC's around the AFOL world, same goes for all the flagship sets in the respective year...

[Blakbird]

I know that some of the designs for the popular "Little Devil", "Lamborghini Gallardo", and other MOCs are copyrighted by their designers. However, if those rights could be transferred to TLG (with appropriate compensation, of course), they could deliver sets to the general public that could GREATLY ENHANCE the number of Technic fans out there.

.......

In the February 2010 Lego Technic Challenge, there were many AFOLs who were hoping for recognition by TLG for their "Flying Functions" MOCs (and possibly, having TLG offer them as official sets someday). What do you think the obstacles are to marketing a "Market Street"-type set for TECHNIC fans? Can "Blakbird" offer an inside perspective to TLG's design and marketing process?

Firstly, I only contribute a few articles to the LEGO Technic blog. I am not a LEGO employee and I don't have any special insight into their design process or decisions. My insight comes only from my observations of their public behavior and my own deductions of business and market forces, like everyone else.

With that being said, I think the reasons for the lack of the kind of official sets mentioned above are pretty clear, and some of them have already been mentioned by other posters. First and foremost, the reason is that LEGO, even the Technic line, is and always has been a children's toy. Like it or not, children pay the bills for the company which produces the excellent products that we adults love. Market forces dictate that LEGO can only afford to produce and market a set that will sell enough copies to make it worth their while. While I have no doubt that a large number of children would LOVE to own such a set (i.e. Gallardo or Little Devil), realistically these sets would be $500 or more and very, very few children could afford them. For that matter, very few adults could afford them. I'm not sure what the sales figures are for the UCS Millenium Falcon, but these sets would be similar in cost but would not have the additional market backing of the massive Lucasfilm license.

Secondly, I think it is a mistake to conclude that builders like Jurgen and Crowkillers (as great as they are) are any better than the official LEGO designers just because the models you see are bigger and more complicated. I'd be willing to bet that if you were granted a glimpse of the building area of Markus Kossman or Uwe Wabra you would find creations every bit as complicated as the Mocs you see posted on Eurobricks and Brickshelf. However, these creations must pass through their technical lead, focus testing with children, instructions making department, art department, marketing, legal, and I'm sure many others that most of us can't even imagine. Sooner or later, someone has to make the business call as to which of these fine creations get the green light for production.

Now that I've thrown all that cold water on the idea, I'd also like to add that personally, I think it is a fantastic idea for LEGO to create a HUGE Technic set aimed at AFOLs!!! There is no question at all that I would buy it and that it would put a huge smile on my face for weeks, and probably years. I don't know if they'd make any money on it, but I'd be perfectly willing to accept something direct marketed via the web site for no retail markup, or even with no printed instructions if that's what it took to make it possible.

Here's hoping.

[Anio]

to own such a set (i.e. Gallardo or Little Devil), realistically these sets would be $500

The best MOCer who build his models in a way which is close to TLG' one : http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?m=nico71

These MOCs wouldn't be so expensive.

[jonwil]

Whilst I dont see a MOC built by an AFOL as something TLG could sell, what I think could work would be for an AFOL-aimed technic set (something like the Emerald Night, Town Plan and Imperial Flagship but as a Technic set).

Something more interesting than cranes, front end loaders, backhoes etc.

Something we havent seen done in technic or havent seen in years (for example, how about a plane similar to the one in the 4593 fast fliers only in technic with working movable wings, movable wing/tail flaps, landing gear that goes up and down etc.

Whatever internal rules allowed the 4593 and the new fighter airplane comming out later in the year to be made (even though such sets are of "fighter jets") could also allow a technic set to be made

Or a large scale "working" model of a V8 engine where you can see the pistons move up and down, the crankshaft rotate, the cam and valves move etc.

Or another technic super car (as good as the 8880)

[TechnicJuan]

While I have no doubt that a large number of children would LOVE to own such a set (i.e. Gallardo or Little Devil), realistically these sets would be $500 or more and very, very few children could afford them.

There is no way either of these models would cost anywhere close to $500. $150 max. just like the similar scaled sets. I could order parts for either of models these off of bricklink for under $250 and that is paying high shipping costs. Some pieces are just difficult to acquire.

[legoman777]

There is no way either of these models would cost anywhere close to $500. $150 max. just like the similar scaled sets. I could order parts for either of models these off of bricklink for under $250 and that is paying high shipping costs. Some pieces are just difficult to acquire.

I am building the little devil. It has cost me about 230.00 with new parts. It is just hard to find some parts like the wheels.

[TechnicJuan]

I am building the little devil. It has cost me about 230.00 with new parts. It is just hard to find some parts like the wheels.

And that is only because you had to buy parts from many different Lego dealers correct? Now if all of these parts came directly from the Lego Parts Factory, I see no reason why either one of these would cost more than the 8258 crane set.

[legoman777]

And that is only because you had to buy parts from many different Lego dealers correct? Now if all of these parts came directly from the Lego Parts Factory, I see no reason why either one of these would cost more than the 8258 crane set.

shipping was about 20.00. I think TLG would sell one of these cars for roughly 220.00. You cant forget that they are a buisness and want to make a decent profit.

[DLuders]

The best MOCer who build his models in a way which is close to TLG' one : http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?m=nico71

These MOCs wouldn't be so expensive.

Yes, "nico71" seems to build interesting racecar and "Trial Truck" MOCs that are interesting enough for both teenagers and adults, but which don't necessarily cost a lot to build. His MOCs could represent the types of sets that could satisfy everybody. Think about it -- TLG has never created a large TECHNIC car or truck set that can be driven using Power Functions elements (when following the official instruction booklet). Not every teenager has the imagination to modify the standard sets to motorize them.

"Blakbird", would you be willing to approach TLG with some of the ideas on this post? Really, there's nothing to lose -- if they say "No" (for whatever reason) then the status quo will not change. However, if they say "Maybe" or "Yes!", think of the possiblities....

Edited March 1, 2010 by dluders

[allanp]

Looking at the recent offical offerings from TLG (piece count, if motors are included, types of parts used etc) I reckon Crowkillers Guillardo could be sold as a racers set for around £90-£100. I would consider buying it for sure. My own Red Hawk Rescue helicopter could be sold for about the same price as a technic set. The only downside is that, even tho Crowkillers design work is DAMB nice and my MOC has functions (that work flawlessly) not seen in an official set before, neither MOC contains any new parts like most new official offerings do.

My dream set is a 2500-3000 piece UCS backhoe like the 8455, but at least twice the size. It would include:

An xl motor (with less gearing down for a higher output speed)

Inline 4 engine

Motor driven air compressor

Motor driven 4 wheel drive and gearbox

pneumatic steering and pendular front suspention

Longer pneumatics

Rear arm would have all the usual functions plus a pneumatically powered telescopic boom and lateral (side to side) sliding movement

Stableizers

Front bucket would have all the usual functions plus pneumatically powered opening/closing feature

Basically the real thing, just smaller.

[Blakbird]

There is no way either of these models would cost anywhere close to $500. $150 max. just like the similar scaled sets. I could order parts for either of models these off of bricklink for under $250 and that is paying high shipping costs. Some pieces are just difficult to acquire.

Fair enough. But we are talking about AFOL Technic "dream sets" here. If you review the Mocs in this thread, for example, I think many of them would be in the $500 range. In fact, I've built several of them and I know that they are! Some of these are sets with 4000+ pieces and 4 or more motors. If we're talking about a set aimed squarely at AFOLS, this is what I would be looking for.

The best MOCer who build his models in a way which is close to TLG' one : http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?m=nico71

These MOCs wouldn't be so expensive.

I agree, Anio. Nico71's models are great. I have built a couple of them and I would gladly buy them if they were offered for sale by LEGO.

Another example of MOCs which I would gladly buy from LEGO are those from Designer Han. If you put these two things together, then you've really got something!

Edited March 1, 2010 by Blakbird

[TechnicJuan]

Oh yeah, a 4,000 piece model would definitely cost Over $500.

[DLuders]

Is there any AFOL out there with "connections" who is willing to contact TLG about this post? I know that this topic isn't on Eurobrick's "Embassy" forum, but SURELY there's got to be somebody who knows somebody at Lego to get things rolling. If Blakbird doesn't want to do it, is there somebody else who would?

The only time I talked with TLG representatives was at the 2007 and 2009 Brickfest in Portland, OR, and at the 2009 BrickCon in Seattle, WA USA. The reps there seemed to be more interested in Lego City and other themes. The polls I quoted earlier show there's DEMAND for an AFOL set, Lego's US profits are up 31%, so what are we waiting for??

Heck, just today I got an e-mail from TLG that announced a new "Exclusive Grand Emporium" set that continues the "Modular Building series" ( https://legoshop.rsys1.net/servlet/website/...NKLklKnFtlgDJht ). If TLG can do THIS for the Lego City fans, why can't they do something similar for the Lego TECHNIC fans? It could be that nobody ever asked them. If given a choice between making a BUILDING or a cool CAR/TRUCK, which one do you think a kid would pick??

Edited March 2, 2010 by dluders

[JunkstyleGio]

Just an idea:

Maybe Lego could add more Technic parts (read ALL available parts) in LDD. Then we could make our own "Super AFol Set" en market them trough Designed by me?

[DLuders]

I just sent an e-mail to Steve Witt (the lead on the Lego Ambassador program) to find out who the Lego Technic Ambassador is for 2009/2010. I don't have any "connections" with TLG, but maybe I can navigate through TLG's corporate structure and talk to somebody who specializes in Technic. I grew up in Connecticut (near TLG's Enfield, Connecticut US Headquarters)....

[cbt]

Could TLG Ever Market a Technic Set Sold by an AFOL?

Generally I hope not! At least not as an officiel set.

Generally, the Technic MOC's I have seen (including my own!) are years behind LEGO's own developmental stage.

Furthermore, many of those MOC's are far too brittle, too "studded", too heavy, not as well-made, with use of "forbidden" building techniques, and the piece count is far too high.

During the process of designing a model the LEGO Technic designers spend hours on rebuilding and optimizing in order to minimize the piece count (and thus the cost) and on weeding out among the "forbidden" building techniques, thus making it easier for children to build those things. Yes, the main target group even for Technic still is children...

Even a first quick glance on most of the Technic MOC's I've seen clearly reveals that there are still so much to do if they should ever catch up with original LEGO Technic sets, both on optimizing, stability, etc.

Furthermore, ask yourself if you would ever want to pay that much for a high piece count Technic model, that might look good but lacks severly in stability, ruggedness and "up-to-dateness" ?.

Well, I wouldn't...

Edited March 2, 2010 by cbt

[Blakbird]

I just sent an e-mail to Steve Witt (the lead on the Lego Ambassador program) to find out who the Lego Technic Ambassador is for 2009/2010.

Fernando Correia (Conchas) over at TechnicBricks is the current Technic Ambassador. I think the Ambassador program is the correct avenue to use to pursue your request. I hope it works!

Generally, the Technic MOC's I have seen (including my own!) are years behind LEGO's own developmental stage.

Furthermore, many of those MOC's are far too brittle, too "studded", too heavy, not as well-made, with use of "forbidden" building techniques, and the piece count is far too high.

I disagree completely. While there are certainly plenty of MOCs out there that are inferior to the official offerings, there are also plenty which can easily compete with the best that TLG has to offer. Spend some time perusing this group and you will see some of them.

Edited March 2, 2010 by Blakbird

[Eilif]

If you're referring to something that an AFOL has already built, it's not going to happen.

TLG has a long standing, established corporate policy of not soliciting designs from outside. The exceptions have been when they approach an AFOL or group of AFOL's to create a specific product under TLG guideance. Having AFOL's work under contract or by agreement with LEGO keeps the design under the TLG ownership from start to finish. The other possible exception would be the "LEGO architecture" series which was not designed by a LEGO employee, but by a LEGO Certified Professional, and IIRC, that was also developed under LEGO's carefull eye.

[TechnicJuan]

Could TLG Ever Market a Technic Set Sold by an AFOL?

Generally I hope not! At least not as an officiel set.

Generally, the Technic MOC's I have seen (including my own!) are years behind LEGO's own developmental stage.

Furthermore, many of those MOC's are far too brittle, too "studded", too heavy, not as well-made, with use of "forbidden" building techniques, and the piece count is far too high.

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you here. There are plenty of amazing technic models out there that rival anything that the designers from lego have done. I can rattle off some recent Lego Technic/Racer models that I have said to myself "Now why would they do this?"