Could TLG Ever Market a Technic Set Sold by an AFOL?

[Conchas]

Hi guys,

I got e-mail today from dluders regarding this thread. I must say I saw it when it was started as every other new topic of this EB section. Unfortunately didn't have much "free" time lately, as you may have already noticed by the post decrease on TBs, because I'm now quite involved in preparations for my LUG large events in 2010.

But sure, I could drop here a few comments.

An official Technic set targeting AFOLs, is one of my wishes for long and some of the polls I've raised at TBs, like the one that dluders mentioned already point in that direction. One thing I can say is that specific poll didn't went without notice from relevant people at TLG, and that was my goal. Since the process to develop new products may start about 2 years in advance (even for regular sets) we never know, what may happen in the future...

However a huge Technic set is quite unlikely in my opinion for several reasons and many were here already mentioned.

Blakbird gave a very good insight about the design steps and constrains in his initial post to this thread, to show how the best MOCs you see out there maybe be quite far from a product to be officially released.

Even many MOCs use parts that are actually not in production, so any eventual venture in this direction should start as a custom and cooperation project with some lucky designated Technic AFOL producing great MOCs.

IMHO there aren't many builders out there, building in the pure TLG Technic style. And this is a fundamental thing, otherwise it won't be Technic.

Of course we must realize that the official style is continuously changing and improving.

I will list here some examples of those building close to the official way:

- The closest IMO is the "Concept Car" from Nathanael Kuippers. But this shouldn't surprise anybody one Nathanael was who designed the "8674 - F1 Ferrari 1:8" as a freelance project.

- The Gallardo from Crowkillers, should be pretty close from the style and aesthetics POV. It is however the only example among Paul's models.

- A few models from Designer Han are also a possibility for what we intend here, but in a slightly different style of building. Maybe he was somehow anticipating some style changes.

- Then a see also a lot of potential on the small models from Mahjqa but thats targeting smaller models.

Sariel is building great and complex MOCs, even smarter mechanisms, but is style is quite away from pure official Technic style of building.

Others you have mentioned have also great MOCs, but not in the proper sense of what is being discussed here, IMO.

Now about the process to release a special set in cooperation with an AFOL also targeting the AFOL market segment.

As far as I know, these have been always 'Direct To Consumer' initiatives (being the Market Street, the best known example).

So such project won't ever be originated from the Technic product line, but should come as a project request from DTC, who has a limited budget for this and similar projects like other LEGO Exclusives.

This changes a bit the scenario where we are moving, or where you have been thinking we are...

Finally I'm not the actual Technic Ambassador, once ambassadors are nominated by their LUGs or some online communities and finally selected by TLG.

I was nominated by my LUG (PLUG or Portuguese LUG), but once I'm basically a LEGO Technic fan running a dedicated blog, I'll always try to defend the Technic causes...

This is nothing I haven't somehow done already in the past, but sure I can raise this topic at some channels inside TLG. Just give me a few days.

What I can't promise, is that I'll be able to get back with any feedback to you.

[DLuders]

Thanks, Conchas, for your insight and assistance. We'll look forward to any communication you get from The Lego Group! Your TechnicBricks website is awesome.

In regards to your comments about the "classic" Technic building style, I think you mean creations with "exposed" mechanicals (not covered up entirely by bricks). However, over the years, the official Lego Technic sets have gotten "smoother" and look much more realistic with Technic panels. The "classic" #8880 Supercar set from 1994 would not fit in today's Technic lineup, because it looks to raw. I agree that your list of MOCs could be strongly considered by TLG:

-- The "Concept Car" from Nathanael Kuipers ( http://technicbricks.blogspot.com/2008/10/...oncept-car.html ).

-- The Gallardo from Crowkillers ( http://technicbricks.blogspot.com/2009/10/...rowkillers.html ) .

-- A few models from Designer Han ( http://www.designer-han.nl/lego/index.htm )

-- Mahjqa's smaller models ( http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?m=mahjqa )

Power Functions elements have been used on a Lego merry-go-round, Emerald Night Train, and a Star Wars AT-AT walker, but not on a fully-driveable Lego Technic CAR or TRUCK. A company that can market Lego Architecture and direct-to-consumer modular buildings can SURELY provide a special Technic set that would be loved by both teenagers and AFOLS! :skull: The other Lego fan groups got some success with their model lineups, so it's time for the TECHNIC folks to receive "equal consideration".

[allanp]

Here's a thought (although I may be going a bit off topic now so be warned!)

What would interest you more from TLG? A new set aimed at AFOLs or new parts aimed at AFOLs. Personnaly, i'de much prefer the new parts. Lego being Lego, I can build my own "set" that's sturdy, works great, looks great, has over 4000 elements, has multiple sections to it and so on. But I can't make (or wouldn't as i'm a purist) the many new parts I, and many other AFOLs would like. This option would help us make our MOCs bigger, better and more complicated whilst at the same time being a more cost effective way for TLG to cater more for AFOLs as these parts would be used to enhance their regular sets making them more appealing to kids and AFOLs alike.

[CP5670]

Here's a thought (although I may be going a bit off topic now so be warned!)

What would interest you more from TLG? A new set aimed at AFOLs or new parts aimed at AFOLs. Personnaly, i'de much prefer the new parts. Lego being Lego, I can build my own "set" that's sturdy, works great, looks great, has over 4000 elements, has multiple sections to it and so on. But I can't make (or wouldn't as i'm a purist) the many new parts I, and many other AFOLs would like. This option would help us make our MOCs bigger, better and more complicated whilst at the same time being a more cost effective way for TLG to cater more for AFOLs as these parts would be used to enhance their regular sets making them more appealing to kids and AFOLs alike.

I was actually thinking the same when I saw this thread. I would also much rather have new pieces that expand the functional possibilities of the Technic system, like the new types of gears I mentioned in that part wish thread.

It would be nice to have an AFOL oriented Technic set, but if you think about it there are very few concepts that would be suitable for a set like this. I think just about any vehicle-type model TLG releases would either be only a slightly beefed up version of something they have already made, or would fit into their price points for standard Technic sets. Technic is a unique theme in the sense that the biggest Technic sets already go into price ranges that would be considered AFOL-targeted in any other theme. If this year's excavator is priced at $200 as reported, then anything up to that level is apparently fine for a standard set aimed at kids. Even if they did release an AFOL-focused Technic set, it would probably still be constrained in terms of fitting in with the look and style of the current, official Technic sets.

People have referred to some MOCs with especially large quantities of motors or pneumatics that would result in a high price, but from what I've seen many of those models don't really need all those parts. The same functionality can be achieved with a lot fewer such elements if they were made into official sets.

[Blakbird]

People have referred to some MOCs with especially large quantities of motors or pneumatics that would result in a high price, but from what I've seen many of those models don't really need all those parts. The same functionality can be achieved with a lot fewer such elements if they were made into official sets.

This from the man who designed the Annihilator?

[Tropy]

I will list here some examples of those building close to the official way:

Sariel is building great and complex MOCs, even smarter mechanisms, but is style is quite away from pure official Technic style of building.

Others you have mentioned have also great MOCs, but not in the proper sense of what is being discussed here, IMO.

I actually think that many AFOL out there might be the future "official way" of building from TLC...who knows maybe in 5 years the Technic set will have a turn in style...

[TechnicJuan]

Paul has been selling Gallardo kits on Ebay for $350-$500 each. It blows my mind that someone from Lego wouldn't be interested in his model to market it and make money off of it. And another question that I have, is this even Legal? I would hate to see a fellow AFOL get into any trouble over this.

[Blakbird]

Paul has been selling Gallardo kits on Ebay for $350-$500 each. It blows my mind that someone from Lego wouldn't be interested in his model to market it and make money off of it. And another question that I have, is this even Legal? I would hate to see a fellow AFOL get into any trouble over this.

It is hard for us to fathom the amount that corporate development costs. How many kits has Paul actually sold? My guess is that LEGO would need to sell hundreds if not thousands of copies to even make up the money required to design the packaging, much less the instructions, the focus testing, legal, etc. I'm sure that LEGO knows about how many copies they need to sell to make money, and they know about how much they can charge and still sell. These are smart people. I guarantee that they have already run this trade study and concluded that the business case is not there. I don't know how many AFOL Technic fans there are in the world with the money to buy one of these sets, but I guess it is not enough. If we really wanted to provide a compelling case to produce such a set, the best data to collect would be hard numbers of AFOLs willing to spend the money.

[TechnicJuan]

It is hard for us to fathom the amount that corporate development costs. How many kits has Paul actually sold? My guess is that LEGO would need to sell hundreds if not thousands of copies to even make up the money required to design the packaging, much less the instructions, the focus testing, legal, etc. I'm sure that LEGO knows about how many copies they need to sell to make money, and they know about how much they can charge and still sell. These are smart people. I guarantee that they have already run this trade study and concluded that the business case is not there. I don't know how many AFOL Technic fans there are in the world with the money to buy one of these sets, but I guess it is not enough. If we really wanted to provide a compelling case to produce such a set, the best data to collect would be hard numbers of AFOLs willing to spend the money.

I am not saying that they would be selling them for a High price like this, but at a price rannge that would coincide with sets similar in scale and part count. I don't have a clue how many Paul has sold, but every week I see another one going off for hundreds of dollars. Now the question is, how many could Paul sell if this was a $150 set? Because realistically that is all this is. And more so, if this set was a different color?

[Blakbird]

I am not saying that they would be selling them for a High price like this, but at a price range that would coincide with sets similar in scale and part count. I don't have a clue how many Paul has sold, but every week I see another one going off for hundreds of dollars. Now the question is, how many could Paul sell if this was a $150 set? Because realistically that is all this is. And more so, if this set was a different color?

Good questions. I know I'd buy it!

But you don't have to live very long as me to realize that there are very few people on Earth who are anything like me. Most of those who exist are right here on this forum!

[CP5670]

This from the man who designed the Annihilator?

To be fair, that model only uses two motors. The fiber optic emitters would increase the price but it may just fit into a $200 pricepoint, at least compared to modern sets.

I was thinking more of the MOCs with 10+ motors and so on. As far as MOCs go they are wonderful, but TLG would likely cut down a lot on those elements if they were made into actual sets, even if geared towards AFOLs.

[TechnicJuan]

Good questions. I know I'd buy it!

But you don't have to live very long as me to realize that there are very few people on Earth who are anything like me. Most of those who exist are right here on this forum!

Eric, did you see the black Gallardo that Paul did?

http://www.crowkillers.com/id10.html

I already have one in red and would love to do another one like this, but some of those pieces are tough to get.

[Blakbird]

I was thinking more of the MOCs with 10+ motors and so on. As far as MOCs go they are wonderful, but TLG would likely cut down a lot on those elements if they were made into actual sets, even if geared towards AFOLs.

I've always been interested to know what one of the LEGO Technic designers would come up with if they were given completely free reign to do whatever they wanted. Obviously, they have access to parts and resources considerably greater than even the wealthiest MOCer. Understanding that such a model would never actually be offered for sale, I'd still like to see what kind of models would pop out of those minds. My guess is that the designers can and do create such models as concepts but that the public never see them. If I ever toured the facility in Billund, this is one of the things I'd most want to see.

You may recall that when the 8275 Bulldozer came out, there was a video interview with the designer Markus Kossman. As part of that interview, we got a peek of some of the other prototype models that ended up resulting in the final product. Some of them were considerably bigger and more complicated. I want them.

[DLuders]

Here's a thought (although I may be going a bit off topic now so be warned!)

What would interest you more from TLG? A new set aimed at AFOLs or new parts aimed at AFOLs. Personnaly, i'de much prefer the new parts. Lego being Lego, I can build my own "set" that's sturdy, works great, looks great, has over 4000 elements, has multiple sections to it and so on. But I can't make (or wouldn't as i'm a purist) the many new parts I, and many other AFOLs would like. This option would help us make our MOCs bigger, better and more complicated whilst at the same time being a more cost effective way for TLG to cater more for AFOLs as these parts would be used to enhance their regular sets making them more appealing to kids and AFOLs alike.

In the Nov/Dec 2009 Brickjournal magazine (Volume 2 Issue 8, pages 13-14), there was an interview with TLG's Chief Executive Officer (Jørgen Vig Knudstorp). He was asked about what it took to introduce new Lego parts. His answer was "The creation of new elements is something we do not take lightly. There is a strong burden of proof on the designer to argue for the true need for a new element. We want to stay very conservative here for a number of reasons; the building experience, quality, user experience and manufacturing costs. We have an element forum that operates within guidelines set by top management, myself included. The forum gets to decide what can be made, and what cannot. Many decisions involve decorations or colors, as much as shapes. The mold cost can vary but is generally around $100,000 US. The cost of actual manufacturing varies greatly and is based on a number of factors. The costs here are not disclosed for obvious competitive reasons."

It is hard for us to fathom the amount that corporate development costs. How many kits has Paul actually sold? My guess is that LEGO would need to sell hundreds if not thousands of copies to even make up the money required to design the packaging, much less the instructions, the focus testing, legal, etc. I'm sure that LEGO knows about how many copies they need to sell to make money, and they know about how much they can charge and still sell. These are smart people. I guarantee that they have already run this trade study and concluded that the business case is not there. I don't know how many AFOL Technic fans there are in the world with the money to buy one of these sets, but I guess it is not enough. If we really wanted to provide a compelling case to produce such a set, the best data to collect would be hard numbers of AFOLs willing to spend the money.

The bottom line is that every recent Lego Technic "flagship" model has "Sold Out". TLG could be "lowballing" the number of complex sets that they can sell. They obviously are making a profit on the best Technic sets they put out every year.

If marketing a "Lamborghini Gallardo" is too complicated (because TLG might have to get a license from Lamborghini), then perhaps they could modify the model enough to make it a generic sportscar or "Supercar." The direct-to-consumer car or truck doesn't have to be a Model Team-type creation (like the recent Ferrari sets). Some folks have already called for the next "Supercar". They would sell out just like the $150 #8258 Crane Trucks did.

[Tropy]

These are smart people. I guarantee that they have already run this trade study and concluded that the business case is not there. I don't know how many AFOL Technic fans there are in the world with the money to buy one of these sets, but I guess it is not enough.

this make business sense...but a little gift to the AFOL that follow it's technic series with so much love could justify a UCS set.

[allanp]

In the Nov/Dec 2009 Brickjournal magazine (Volume 2 Issue 8, pages 13-14), there was an interview with TLG's Chief Executive Officer (Jørgen Vig Knudstorp). He was asked about what it took to introduce new Lego parts. His answer was "The creation of new elements is something we do not take lightly. There is a strong burden of proof on the designer to argue for the true need for a new element. We want to stay very conservative here for a number of reasons; the building experience, quality, user experience and manufacturing costs. We have an element forum that operates within guidelines set by top management, myself included. The forum gets to decide what can be made, and what cannot. Many decisions involve decorations or colors, as much as shapes. The mold cost can vary but is generally around $100,000 US. The cost of actual manufacturing varies greatly and is based on a number of factors. The costs here are not disclosed for obvious competitive reasons."

I was not aware of that particular interview, thankyou for posting that. I am aware that to produce a new part is no small thing at all and it costs alot of money for many reasons. But I wonder how much it would cost to produce a UCS technic set. With all that set/packaging/instruction design and legal stuff. That would be a huge cost to justify. At least with new parts that AFOLs have been wanting, they could probably justify them soley by their uses in other sets across the whole technic range. Alas, I am but a mere mortal, on the outside, looking in.

If marketing a "Lamborghini Gallardo" is too complicated (because TLG might have to get a license from Lamborghini), then perhaps they could modify the model enough to make it a generic sportscar or "Supercar." The direct-to-consumer car or truck doesn't have to be a Model Team-type creation (like the recent Ferrari sets). Some folks have already called for the next "Supercar". They would sell out just like the $150 #8258 Crane Trucks did.

Oooooh no, I wouldn't want the next supercar to be like a racers set anyway. The racers sets are great (Crowkillers lambourguini is fabulous, with its four wheel drive possibly better that the official racers sets!) but in a similar way to model team, I don't see the ferrari races as technic sets at all. It should have an interesting new gearbox and be bigger and have all round independent suspention and hopefully 4 wheel drive and motorised but not necasseryly RC and not red!!!!!!

Edited March 4, 2010 by allanp

[Conchas]

I've addressed the question. The outcome is that TLG is of course always looking into new opportunities, but for the moment such a product can't be guaranteed.

In case a LEGO Technic Direct model is ever to be launched, for sure we will get some news about.

[JunkstyleGio]

............ but for the moment such a product can't be guaranteed.

One thing that keeps our hopes up on this: they didn't say no.... We never know what they are keeping up their sleeves......

For instance: the 8041 Race Truck was quite a surprise for most of us.

[allanp]

One thing that keeps our hopes up on this: they didn't say no.... We never know what they are keeping up their sleeves......

For instance: the 8041 Race Truck was quite a surprise for most of us.

Even when they do say no, that doesn't really mean no. I'm sure I remember someone from lego saying they would never release a set bigger than (insert set hear), a couple of years later they did.

[Anio]

the 8041 Race Truck was quite a surprise for most of us.

Yeah, a bad surprise.

[Jurgen Krooshoop]

First of all, I'm honoured by the fact that some people consider my model(s) to be of the same or better quality that the designs of TLG. But this rises the question: how can you determine the quality of a construction ? Clearly there are a number of (commercial) aspects that TLG have to take into acount, whereas I don't have any commercial restrictions. My Little Devil has aprox. 1800 parts, about the same as the Crane truck, meaning it would have to cost about the same, but the latter is almost twice as big and has more fuctionality. The question is what the average consumer would buy for the same money: a Little Devil or a Huge Crane Truck ? The Little devil can be stripped of the lights and some details to make it cheaper, but the remote controlled driving & steering are essential. Adding a motor to a finished model would require taking most of the car apart.

And as posted earlier, the TLG-designer are propably capable of designing something very similar, if not even better. We just don't see everything they make. As for the amount of time going into a design: The Little Devil took just over a week to make and another 2 weeks to make the instructions (in my free time). The main car was constructed in a single (whole) day, all the details took about a week to complete. TLG would propably take one or more months to develop it, several Little Devils would be made from which the best would be chosen. (This makes me wonder why the Crane Truck still had some design flaws, which were corrected later by an AFOL...)

Having no commercial restriction makes it easier to make an impressive model, cause your only limit is your own collection and wallet (for ordering on Bricklink 8-) ). This makes it easy to add more lights, motors, more details, make your own remote-controllers (like my JCB 4CX Backhoe Loader), but does this make a model better ? For TLG this is hard-core business, they have to live from making Lego-models. For me, it's just a hobby. I'm a creative person and I like creating things that weren't there before and share them. For Lego-designs that means that I try to design something that TLG doensn't and whenever possible, to share it with the Lego-community.

[JunkstyleGio]

I Totally agree with Jurgen.

But maybe LEGO has already made a start with their Designed by me program. Shamefully almost none of the technic parts are available. Adding them would, in my opion create an additional market for them; AFOLS.

I really think that some of the AFOL MOCs would sell like crazy!

[DLuders]

Jurgen Krooshoop, thanks for your perspective. I would think that a DRIVEABLE Supercar like your "Little Devil" (enabled with Power Functions) would be "better" and more marketable than the Crane Truck, because the "Little Devil" could be modified easier by the customer. TLG has never produced a Power Functions-enabled car set, and it's been MANY YEARS since the flagship 8880 "Supercar" (year 1994) and the 8448 Supercar II/Super Street Sensation (year 1999) were sold on store shelves. All the recent Lego TECHNIC flagships have sold out within 2 months, so WHAT ARE THEY WAITING FOR? The demand is there. Sell a "Supercar 3" via direct marketing, Ultimate Collector Series, etc. If TLG can offer Power Functions-enabled merry-go-rounds, they can easily sell out a driveable Supercar. I can't help but think that the Lego TECHNIC fans are being badly neglected by TLG....

[Jurgen Krooshoop]

Jurgen Krooshoop, thanks for your perspective. I would think that a DRIVEABLE Supercar like your "Little Devil" (enabled with Power Functions) would be "better" and more marketable than the Crane Truck, because the "Little Devil" could be modified easier by the customer. TLG has never produced a Power Functions-enabled car set, and it's been MANY YEARS since the flagship 8880 "Supercar" (year 1994) and the 8448 Supercar II/Super Street Sensation (year 1999) were sold on store shelves. All the recent Lego TECHNIC flagships have sold out within 2 months, so WHAT ARE THEY WAITING FOR? The demand is there. Sell a "Supercar 3" via direct marketing, Ultimate Collector Series, etc. If TLG can offer Power Functions-enabled merry-go-rounds, they can easily sell out a driveable Supercar. I can't help but think that the Lego TECHNIC fans are being badly neglected by TLG....

Well, if TLG would ever release such a supercar-set, I would definately buyt it !! I agree with you that a RC Technic Supercar would be a fantastic edition to the Technic-line, either designed by an AFOL of by TLG.