LEGO 10277 + Powered Up + LEGO 88010 RC (no smart device) + lights

[DarioD]

Hi!
I was dissatisfied with some Powered Up original solutions and disappointed with the lack of "real" lighting on the locomotive, so I researched the existing solutions offered (all over the Internet), picked up the ones that suited me, tweaked them and designed the missing things. I put it all together in one video. If anyone finds this compilation of solutions useful, I will be glad.
Along with the video, you can also find initial ideas for some solutions.
The solutions in the video can be applied to any locomotive.
Enjoy!
https://youtu.be/INbRhMfnpJ0

[Lok24]

Sounds interesting, is there a description or explanation of  your idea?

[DarioD]

Well, idea = solutions are in the video for things that didn’t satisfy me.
Control by the device intended for that (RC), "real" automatic lighting (forw/backw.) of the locomotive, energy transfer to the wagons without additional power supply, and at the same time easily detachable composition units, and lighting in the wagons (controlled by same RC on / off).
Everything is shown in the video.

[JopieK]

Nice job @DarioD, also welcome to Eurobricks Train Tech. Python is always interesting to work with, even though I personally prefer C/C++ for microcontrollers.

[Lok24]

Hi @DarioD

As I understand the color of the lamps depends of the direction of the train and cannot be switched via RC.

As an iprovement you should then mount the red lamps in the last waggon of the train, because it indicates "end of train", with waggons attached there is no red "rear" light in the loco.
The loco should show the right rear white lamp when working, if showing situation after 1947.

And also be aware that a train with that loco could never move backwards. Perhaps while shunting , but i'm not sure.

Or you use the buttons to turn on and off white and red seperately, for shunting purposes.

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Lok24

[DarioD]

Hi @Lok24
Thanks for the questions. Below are my answers.

4 hours ago, Lok24 said:

As I understand the color of the lamps depends of the direction of the train and cannot be switched via RC.

YES, by controller you can only turn on (right +) or turn off (right-) power for all lights in loco and wagons.

4 hours ago, Lok24 said:

As an iprovement you should then mount the red lamps in the last waggon of the train, because it indicates "end of train", with waggons attached there is no red "rear" light in the loco.
The loco should show the right rear white lamp when working, if showing situation after 1947.

I agree, but this is still playing model (toy). And whole project is mostly concept of proof.
Slightly more serious train model systems (N, HO ...) do not have this functionality in wagons as standard (there are but in exclusive editions). This is a "toy" after all, and it has a lot of limitations, such as a very limited power supply (6xAAA battery). These batteries, however, need to keep gameplay for a reasonable amount of time. For this reason, I was extremely careful how much and how I would connect the presented lights. I connected them in series as much as I could, because in that case more LEDs consume the same amount of electricity as one, which is not the case in parallel connection. I would definitely not recommend a train composition longer than three lighted wagons. I think it is now clear why the wagons are not equipped with this additional rear lighting (or more then two LEDs) as well. But in fact, if someone has the desire and will ... just feel free. In the video, I also mentioned that I will be glad if someone expands the functionality according to their needs.

4 hours ago, Lok24 said:

And also be aware that a train with that loco could never move backwards. Perhaps while shunting , but i'm not sure.

:-) Don't worry, what I presented, I will use only for the purpose of playing. Primarily because of the atmosphere under the Weihnachtsbaum.
 

4 hours ago, Lok24 said:

Or you use the buttons to turn on and off white and red seperately, for shunting purposes.

No, the headlights switch back and forth (color) automatically, depending on the direction of the locomotive. This part is defined by the connection (see electronic diagram) of the electronics and the code (the part when testing whether the direction of rotation of the motor is in the + or - direction).

•  

Edited December 4, 2021 by DarioD

[DarioD]

Thank you @JopieK for nice welcome words. I'm in this forum since December 31, 2009. But in the meantime the focus from LEGO has shifted to some other activities. I'm certainly glad to be back in the world of colorful bricks. :-)

[DarioD]

7 hours ago, JopieK said:

Python is always interesting to work with, even though I personally prefer C/C++ for microcontrollers.

I'm not expert for any of program language, but it's not a problem for me to understand the logic of the any program language and make the necessary changes and upgrades. Of course, if I have a good source of information about the programming language.

For this, I needed a relatively quick solution, so I focused on tried and safe ways to program LEGO smart bricks. I achieved my goal in a very satisfying way. And that is the most important thing.
The biggest problem here is that there are no official specifications of the electrical values at the HUB outputs, so I had to rely on the experience and reverse engineering methods of other enthusiasts. What I found and tried in the segments of this project, I can confirm with great certainty that they did a great job. What I could not find, I concluded from my experience in electronics.

[XG BC]

nice solution! will also add lights to my e69 005 that i will build when the fxtracks motor comes out. it will be fully dcc though so all the functions will work independent of each other

[JopieK]

8 hours ago, DarioD said:

I'm not expert for any of program language, but it's not a problem for me to understand the logic of the any program language and make the necessary changes and upgrades. Of course, if I have a good source of information about the programming language.

For this, I needed a relatively quick solution, so I focused on tried and safe ways to program LEGO smart bricks. I achieved my goal in a very satisfying way. And that is the most important thing.
The biggest problem here is that there are no official specifications of the electrical values at the HUB outputs, so I had to rely on the experience and reverse engineering methods of other enthusiasts. What I found and tried in the segments of this project, I can confirm with great certainty that they did a great job. What I could not find, I concluded from my experience in electronics.

Well that is always a wise strategy. Programming seems like a never ending story, I am not a programmer but I have been programming since 1997 and teaching programming for about 17 years now but am still learning a lot (uh, and sometimes also forgetting a lot ;))

@Philo is always a great resource for the characteristics for LEGO electronics:
https://www.philohome.com/wedo2reverse/wedo2.htm
https://www.philohome.com/pupbat/pupbat.htm

[Lok24]

Hi @DarioD,

11 hours ago, DarioD said:

This is a "toy" after all, :-) Don't worry, what I presented, I will use only for the purpose of playing.

I see, thats why I asked for the explanation of your Idea.

And I understood that you wanted to establish a " "real" automatic lighting (forw/backw.)"
I interpreted "real" as "realistic".

 

11 hours ago, DarioD said:

Slightly more serious train model systems (N, HO ...) do not have this functionality in wagons as standard (there are but in exclusive editions).

 

All locomotives have lights that you can seperately turn on or off, since decades.
Manually, because lightning depends of the actual situation the loco is in.

Do the two programs only differ in line 103, and why do recommend the one?

[DarioD]

3 hours ago, XG BC said:

nice solution! will also add lights to my e69 005 that i will build when the fxtracks motor comes out. it will be fully dcc though so all the functions will work independent of each other

Thanks, I tried to make it as simple and yet functional as possible.
Yes, FXtracks ... I saw that product (it may sound weird, but for me it's actually all new about LEGO trains, because it was only a month ago that I first met). I think LEGO’s biggest failure is that it stopped using metal rails. Energy source and transmission are the basis for any system. The current system with autonomous power supply and all-plastic rails is a disaster.

Edited December 5, 2021 by DarioD
Wrong Quote

[Lok24]

With DCC you have to use special receivers in each loco and the metal rails, which is very useful, but expensive.

[DarioD]

@JopieK Yess, yes, very good source. I used Philo's information from begining of my project. Also, everyone can find link on Philo's pages in my video and in video description.  

[DarioD]

Dear @Lok24,

2 hours ago, Lok24 said:

All locomotives have lights that you can seperately turn on or off, since decades.
Manually, because lightning depends of the actual situation the loco is in.

I'm not sure if I understand well ... Do you mean real locomotives or locomotive models (like Lego L system, HO system eg Marklin, Fleischmann, Rivarossi, Roco ...)?
If you are talking about models, manual control of locomotive lighting is not very practical. If there is one locomotive, then it can somehow pass, but if several locomotives are operated at the same time ... Hmmm. The aspiration in systems is always that each active part (loco, signals, switches, city lights ...) acts individually, and again according to some common logic, that everything works in harmony.
 

2 hours ago, Lok24 said:

Do the two programs only differ in line 103, and why do recommend the one?

Yes. I found this in Pybricks examples for motor control (there are more options).

I tried several ways and these two proved to be the best for me. Again, of the two, this one with percentage speed control is somehow more practical for me, because with control I don't have to know what the speed parameters are for motor (max speed). This also makes a wider application possible, as another motor with different characteristics can be used.

You have far more experience and knowledge in this area. I would be happy if you would take some of your time and possibly give a suggestion on how to improve control or maybe give an idea for a completely different approach.
I’ve found a solution, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s good (though it does the job). :-)

[DarioD]

42 minutes ago, Lok24 said:

With DCC you have to use special receivers in each loco and the metal rails, which is very useful, but expensive.

Maybe I'll ask a stupid question. Isn't it possible to use LEGO HUB for trains(if it is cheaper than these special receivers) by taking only power (disconnecting / bypassing the motor) via fxtracks motor, bringing power to HUB and returning control to motor from HUB?

I don't know how the engine is technically designed, but I guess it would take some minimal intervention to separate the motor from direct power (from the rails) and direct it to the HUB. Maybe capacitor at the input, to bridge any occasional bad contacts with the rails. It’s just an idea to think about, because I don’t know how it all looks and works.

[Lok24]

Hi @DarioD

 

54 minutes ago, DarioD said:

Dear @Lok24,

I'm not sure if I understand well ... Do you mean real locomotives or locomotive models (like Lego L system, HO system eg Marklin, Fleischmann, Rivarossi, Roco ...)?
If you are talking about models, manual control of locomotive lighting is not very practical. If there is one locomotive, then it can somehow pass, but if several locomotives are operated at the same time

 

I mean both, the real locos have complex lightnig patterns, and DCC decoders can (and do) reflect them all, and you have have a half a dozen switches (per model)  to control that all.
And it is not very usual to control several locos at the same time, normally you set up one loco (choose address, all properties are stored so that they easily can be acces on you handheld) make all preparations (Panto up, closing doors, setting lights, check brakes, whistle) , and then start it, while runnig you can start next train.

I have been on many events where you have one person and one handheld per loco !

 

54 minutes ago, DarioD said:

Again, of the two, this one with percentage speed control is somehow more practical for me, because with control I don't have to know what the speed parameters are for motor (max speed). This also makes a wider application possible, as another motor with different characteristics can be used.

Absolutely!

My approach:

Value are always 0-100, if DC then motor.dc = val, if motor then motor.run=val*100, this is what you use too.
But you can ask the port what type of motor ist attached  and than use the best command for it.

You find exmaples if you serch fot classPUPDevice(port)

You can see that IDs 1+2 are dc, all other can use run.
So just ask for the id, if < 3 then .dc, else use run.

And there is a huge difference: the run command provides load contol, which makes it possible to drive really slow and constant, see my videos.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Lok24

[Lok24]

27 minutes ago, DarioD said:

Maybe I'll ask a stupid question. Isn't it possible to use LEGO HUB for trains(if it is cheaper than these special receivers) by taking only power (disconnecting / bypassing the motor) via fxtracks motor, bringing power to HUB and returning control to motor from HUB?

 

Yes, this possible and very simple, but you loose a lot of facicilies of DCC.
The DCC decoders start about 20,-- €, but you always need some central unit control to generate the signal on the track and handhelds if desired.

The question is not what is possible but what you want to archieve.
With your idea you get rid of the batteries but need the metal rails everywhere.

[DarioD]

54 minutes ago, Lok24 said:

But you can ask the port what type of motor ist attached  and than use the best command for it.

You find exmaples if you serch fot classPUPDevice(port)

You can see that IDs 1+2 are dc, all other can use run.
So just ask for the id, if < 3 then .dc, else use run.

And there is a huge difference: the run command provides load contol, which makes it possible to drive really slow and constant, see my videos.

Mmmmm, nice :-). I like it! I will definitely try this.

38 minutes ago, Lok24 said:

Yes, this possible and very simple, but you loose a lot of facicilies of DCC.
The DCC decoders start about 20,-- €, but you always need some central unit control to generate the signal on the track and handhelds if desired.

The question is not what is possible but what you want to archieve.
With your idea you get rid of the batteries but need the metal rails everywhere.

Huh, that works a little differently than I thought ... My thinking was in the direction that only the power supply comes from the rails, and the commands towards HUB are classic BT connection from RC. But according to what you said, DCC actually does everything through the rails ... both the power supply and the signals to control the DCC decoder (and later the motor or something else). I definitely need to study DCC a bit, what and how it works. Thanks for the info!

[JopieK]

One of the problems of DCC that I faced is that LEGO engines are even with weight blocks relatively light. That hampers the signal transmission from encoder to decoder. A mechanical engineering colleague even milled metal wheels, but that did not really solve it for me. BLE is a much more reliable solution I would say especially as we have lots of room compared to H0 or so model trains.

[Lok24]

17 minutes ago, JopieK said:

One of the problems of DCC that I faced is that LEGO engines are even with weight blocks relatively light. That hampers the signal transmission from encoder to decoder. A mechanical engineering colleague even milled metal wheels, but that did not really solve it for me. BLE is a much more reliable solution I would say especially as we have lots of room compared to H0 or so model trains.

That depends on the decoders and their technique.
Good  ones have UPS and receive the signal without contact to the track via capacitance coupling.

Have a look
https://www.lenz-elektronik.de/src/media/USP-HD-1280.mp4

And the engine is really small....

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Lok24

[Lok24]

On 12/6/2021 at 12:57 PM, JopieK said:

One of the problems of DCC that I faced is that LEGO engines are even with weight blocks relatively light. That hampers the signal transmission from encoder to decoder. A mechanical engineering colleague even milled metal wheels, but that did not really solve it for me.

Additional: there is another problem.

The axles are fixed in the frame, so only three of them have really contact to the track with metal wheels.
(The lego 9V system picks up energy form the flanks of the track)

One axle has to swing, then you always have for wheels with contact.
I have a loco in 1:87 schale here, 105 gramm weight, and it runs like shown in the video.

 

[JopieK]

I did use Lenz decoders but I must confess it has been about ten years ago, so a lot has changes probably since then (I know for sure at least at the microcontroller side of things). Apart from that DCC is nice to control trains, but I think when Bluetooth Low Energy finally keeps it's promises about meshing, I mean it is advertised but I haven't seen a lot of real-world examples. You could power/charge trains using the wheels in that case and control them using BLE. Thing with BLE is of course that it is integrated in our tables / phones / Raspberries / whatever, so we have a lot of possibilities without media conversion etc.

[Lok24]

Yes, there are lots a of possiblities.

For DCC the most used alternative is WLAN.

And many systems uses same kind of booster to genrate the signal, but controlling is via smartdevice.

But for the LEGO trains it is  very expensive.

[XG BC]

9 hours ago, Lok24 said:

Yes, there are lots a of possiblities.

For DCC the most used alternative is WLAN.

And many systems uses same kind of booster to genrate the signal, but controlling is via smartdevice.

But for the LEGO trains it is  very expensive.

i will dive into it because my dad bought an ICE starter package from piko some years ago because it was cheaper to buy that than the train alone but he already had a full layout with an opendcc z1 central station so the little booster box/ir receiver was left over. it will be what i am going to use to control it and later maybe some arduino based solution using various librarys.

this is what i am going to use:

cheap small and does the job.