ElectroDiva

2018 Lego Trains

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26 minutes ago, Mr Hobbles said:

 

Regarding your comment on "everything should work out of the box" - well, everything advertised on the box *does* work out of the box. You can control the train you bought with the controller it came with right? 

I will concede that. But given that, the system, 'out of the box', is even more limited than Power Functions. With PF, I have eight trains on one controller with no setting up, firmware updates or any messing about necessary. The V2 IR receiver was a specific modification to control two specific motors parallelled on the same channel as I recall...simply a more capable H-bridge driver and only necessary for a specific Technics set.

The i-Phone is an i-Phone 4....it has i-OS 7.something or other but does not support the app and even if it did it hasn't got BT4/LE so the hardware isn't compatible either. As the system was only RTM in the last few weeks, I'm surprised that the firmware already needs an update.

Anyway, two controllers, two Smart Hubs going on ebay tonight!

 

 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, retrotecchie said:

Anyway, two controllers, two Smart Hubs going on ebay tonight!

Bear in mind, PF has been out for over 10 years now. Over time it has amassed quite a range of motors, cables, other components, etc. It can be expected that Lego will do the same with PUP, and it'll have the added benefit of being compatible with various sensors (some of which are already available and usable even without Lego's help).

And I obviously don't know your situation, but it's not inconceivable that you'll upgrade your phone or tablet at some point over the next few years, thereby unlocking all the functionality you're missing now.

Nonetheless, If you're determined to sell them, in all seriousness let me know beforehand. :) I'm in the market for more PUP train components!

Edited by Mr Hobbles

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I'm holding fire on selling them just yet. As a semi-retired electronics engineer it would be rude not to play with this stuff a little, and it might give some hints to others.

 

1. Open up the motor, swap the M1 and M2 wires (clearly marked on the PCB) and you now have a 'reversed motor' to put at the other end of a train. All we need now is a 'Y' lead to be able to connect two motors to the same Smart Hub Port.

2. And this may be why I suspect there will not be a 'Y' lead. The Lego Power functions train motor only uses two wires, M1 and M2. The new PU train motor has six wires. 9v, 0v, M1 and M2 as well as 2 ID wires. In the train motor, one wire is taken to 9v (let's call it logic 1) and the other to 0v (let's call that logic 0). Other motors or devices will have these two ID pins wired differently....there are eight possible combinations of ID. The four obvious 'binary' combinations, plus a tri-state or floating combination. Both ID pins floating, or unconnected, gives the same ID as having nothing connected at all. I can forsee a combination of two possible motors (01 and 10) that will effectively short circuit the battery if a Y lead is used.

3. Chopping off a plug and DIY hard-wiring it to two motors, one reversed, would get round the two motors on one train issue. Assuming the H-bridge chip has the same capabilities as the PF receiver, no big problem there.

4. Again, with a little splicing, no reason at all why a conventional PF train motor cannot be used with the Smart Hub connector....other than the ID pins, the internals of both motors are pretty identical.

5. I can see a PF to PU or vice versa lead being very easy to implement. Have a small 'dongle' (like the one on the PF lights) that takes the six wires from PU and converts it to PF to drive LEDs or older train motors. PF can happily drive the new train motor just by using the M1 and M2 wires.

6. By having a couple of small switches on the dongle, similar to the polarity switches on the old PF controller, the signals on the ID pins can then be 'faked'. Without knowing exactly what all the ID combinations are (I will try them later) I'm not sure what the functionality is, but I suspect one of the ID options is for a variable speed reversible motor (i.e., train motor) and another is for a momentary motor where it does not run continuously, but is pulsed only when a switch is pressed...like BOOST.

Further to the hassles I am having with the Bluetooth itself, I was sat in the front room last night fiddling with the trains (rather than the LEGO attic) and 'Her Royal Wifeyness' started moaning at me that something funny was happening with her Windows laptop. She kept getting pop-up notifications about 'new hardware detected'. It seems her Bluetooth was in promiscuous mode and it was picking up new Bluetooth devices in range. Namely, a Hub No 4 and a Controller No 2.

So....even if LEGO are telling me there are no plans for Windows, at least the hardware is able to be seen by a Windows PC. I then thought about throwing an Android emulator on the PC, downloading the Powered Up! app and doing my firmware update that way, but it would appear that almost all emulators are software only and can't access the PC hardware (Wifi, Bluetooth, etc.) so I am again stumped there. But the fact that Windows can see this stuff means that someone, sooner or later, is going to come up with a PC based control solution.

 

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23 minutes ago, retrotecchie said:

I'm holding fire on selling them just yet. As a semi-retired electronics engineer it would be rude not to play with this stuff a little, and it might give some hints to others.

  

1. Open up the motor, swap the M1 and M2 wires (clearly marked on the PCB) and you now have a 'reversed motor' to put at the other end of a train. All we need now is a 'Y' lead to be able to connect two motors to the same Smart Hub Port.

 2. And this may be why I suspect there will not be a 'Y' lead. The Lego Power functions train motor only uses two wires, M1 and M2. The new PU train motor has six wires. 9v, 0v, M1 and M2 as well as 2 ID wires. In the train motor, one wire is taken to 9v (let's call it logic 1) and the other to 0v (let's call that logic 0). Other motors or devices will have these two ID pins wired differently....there are eight possible combinations of ID. The four obvious 'binary' combinations, plus a tri-state or floating combination. Both ID pins floating, or unconnected, gives the same ID as having nothing connected at all. I can forsee a combination of two possible motors (01 and 10) that will effectively short circuit the battery if a Y lead is used.

3. Chopping off a plug and DIY hard-wiring it to two motors, one reversed, would get round the two motors on one train issue. Assuming the H-bridge chip has the same capabilities as the PF receiver, no big problem there.

4. Again, with a little splicing, no reason at all why a conventional PF train motor cannot be used with the Smart Hub connector....other than the ID pins, the internals of both motors are pretty identical.

5. I can see a PF to PU or vice versa lead being very easy to implement. Have a small 'dongle' (like the one on the PF lights) that takes the six wires from PU and converts it to PF to drive LEDs or older train motors. PF can happily drive the new train motor just by using the M1 and M2 wires.

6. By having a couple of small switches on the dongle, similar to the polarity switches on the old PF controller, the signals on the ID pins can then be 'faked'. Without knowing exactly what all the ID combinations are (I will try them later) I'm not sure what the functionality is, but I suspect one of the ID options is for a variable speed reversible motor (i.e., train motor) and another is for a momentary motor where it does not run continuously, but is pulsed only when a switch is pressed...like BOOST.

 Further to the hassles I am having with the Bluetooth itself, I was sat in the front room last night fiddling with the trains (rather than the LEGO attic) and 'Her Royal Wifeyness' started moaning at me that something funny was happening with her Windows laptop. She kept getting pop-up notifications about 'new hardware detected'. It seems her Bluetooth was in promiscuous mode and it was picking up new Bluetooth devices in range. Namely, a Hub No 4 and a Controller No 2.

 So....even if LEGO are telling me there are no plans for Windows, at least the hardware is able to be seen by a Windows PC. I then thought about throwing an Android emulator on the PC, downloading the Powered Up! app and doing my firmware update that way, but it would appear that almost all emulators are software only and can't access the PC hardware (Wifi, Bluetooth, etc.) so I am again stumped there. But the fact that Windows can see this stuff means that someone, sooner or later, is going to come up with a PC based control solution.

  

Thanks for that analysis!

I'm not an electronics engineer, but I'm a programmer and have been coming at it from the other angle - I've written a Node.js programming library that makes WeDo 2.0, Boost, and Powered Up components all compatible with each other (https://github.com/nathankellenicki/node-lpf2). It can definitely be connected to a PC, it's just that Lego hasn't released an app for it. A few others including @JopieK on here have done some excellent work reverse engineering the Bluetooth protocol that is spoken. In fact @JopieK has already released his own third party app on the iOS app store that offers a bit more advanced train control functionality, and here's a video of my own automated Powered Up train layout with multiple trains - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tyzo_hHFiUc, so we can definitely write software for Power Functions 2.0 that is more powerful than what Lego has already released.

Regarding the ID's you talk about before, we've know of, see here for the list of the ones I know about: https://github.com/nathankellenicki/node-lpf2/blob/master/consts.ts#L9-L21. I suspect with more basic devices (train motor, WeDo 2.0 medium motor), the resistor value is what determines the ID. More advanced devices have their own PCB and micro controller inside to respond (like the Boost motor).

About the splitter, I suspect one can be done if the cable has logic inside it, on the basis that something we've discovered on the Powered Up hub. The hub "advertises" two ports, port 0x00 (port "A") and port 0x01(port "B") over Bluetooth. However when you plug in two devices of the same time, such as two train motors, the Hub advertises a new "virtual" port - 0x39 (port "AB"). We can control both motors at the same time by sending commands to port AB. Incidentally it crashes if both those devices are of the "smarter" variety - two Boost motors, two Boost distance/color sensors, etc, but not if they're basic motors. Lego has said they'll be releasing a firmware update to fix this.

If Lego releases a Y splitter cable with a small PCB inside it that handles the same logic of creating a new virtual port in software, it may be possible.

I'm glad to hear that a PUP to converter cable should be easily doable though, I have a desire to convert my Emerald Night over to PUP, and there's no XL motor yet.

There's a thread going on over here about reverse engineering Powered Up, come on over! https://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/topic/162288-powered-up-a-tear-down/&page=5

 

Edited by Mr Hobbles

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Still need to fix an annoying bug for version 1.1 then you can also use the app for controlling two motors on one HUB (you can also choose to reverse one or the other). Will support iOS 10+ (upon request).

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FYI I can confirm that the Switch Tracks 60238 is the same price as Switching Tracks 7895. At least for the United States. Both in-store and S@h.

Also, 60052 and 60051, while "out of stock" have been discounted to $159.99 and $119.99 respectively.

Edited by ALCO
more info

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Just for gag value, I just shot a little video demonstrating my Powered Up system 'not working'. In response to my feedback on the LEGO website regarding the Cargo Train, I got this reply from 'Emily':

 

RESPONSE FROM LEGO:EmilyCustomer ServiceAugust 7, 2018
Hi there. I'm sorry to hear that you've had some trouble getting both your trains connected. It is possible to run two trains at the same time from one remote, but the process can get just a bit tricky since it requires several steps.

You'll want to make sure that each train has its motor plugged in to a different port. Connect the first train, then disconnect it. After that, connect the second train (don't disconnect!). Once that's done, reconnect the first train. Both trains will then be connected to the same remote! If you'd like to change which channels they're on, you can just press the button on the Hub.
 
I think I had figured out for myself exactly how it is supposed to work. The thing is, it doesn't!
 
Video link here.....sorry it's crap. Webcam jobby, so the quality is not great.
 

 

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On 8/6/2018 at 1:46 PM, ALCO said:

FYI I can confirm that the Switch Tracks 60238 is the same price as Switching Tracks 7895. At least for the United States. Both in-store and S@h.

Also, 60052 and 60051, while "out of stock" have been discounted to $159.99 and $119.99 respectively.

They went down to $43.49 and $44.99 at Target...

https://www.target.com/p/lego-174-city-cargo-train-60052/-/A-15645520

https://www.target.com/p/lego-174-city-high-speed-passenger-train-60051/-/A-15645519

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15 hours ago, TypoCorrecto said:

Sadly not one Target w/ several hundred miles have it for me :(  Seems SoCal seems to be the hotbed (or not) of availability.

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On 7/27/2018 at 5:57 AM, Mr Hobbles said:

I had spare time this morning and made a fully automated layout with Lego Powered Up/Power Functions 2.0 components. I put a description in the Powered Up teardown thread, but I thought I'd post the video here too:

 

Congratulations, your toys no longer need you, they can play quietly on their own (grin)

On 8/5/2018 at 12:24 AM, Goldenmasamune said:

I went ahead and emailed them asking lf I can purchase a second engine 

I'm guessing they will be sending out motors rather than the "engine car" but it should be interesting if they are sending out the car.

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Just a heads up, 88005 Powered UP LED Lights are now up and available for purchase on the US Shop@Home store at the $9.99 price point. :)

This means UK is likely not far behind. \o/

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6 hours ago, zephyr1934 said:

Congratulations, your toys no longer need you, they can play quietly on their own (grin) 

The dream is to have a house like the home alone toy shop where everything is moving 😂

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If they weigh in at less than the £5.49 that the original PF lights sell right now for then this could be a good thing.

PF battery box, receiver, train motor and two sets of lights come in at well under £50...which is about the difference in price between the older train sets and the 2018 models.

Take the old 7938 Passenger Train at £79.99. Deduct, say, £30 for the bundled Power Functions, and that leaves the 'bare train' costing around £50. The new PUP train at £119.99 gives me the impression that the Smart Hub, controller and train motor together come in at around £60 or higher.

Going on that basis, it seems the new PUP is far more expensive as a 'system' than the older PF, so I would expect the lights to cost significantly more than the older PF ones. A price point of $10 in the US usually implies a similar number for pounds or Euro, especially with exchange rates being what they are right now.

I'm still struggling with pairing my trains. Ongoing email 'ping pong' with TLG isn't getting me any closer to a solution:cry2:

 

 

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18 minutes ago, retrotecchie said:

If they weigh in at less than the £5.49 that the original PF lights sell right now for then this could be a good thing.

PF battery box, receiver, train motor and two sets of lights come in at well under £50...which is about the difference in price between the older train sets and the 2018 models.

Take the old 7938 Passenger Train at £79.99. Deduct, say, £30 for the bundled Power Functions, and that leaves the 'bare train' costing around £50. The new PUP train at £119.99 gives me the impression that the Smart Hub, controller and train motor together come in at around £60 or higher.

Going on that basis, it seems the new PUP is far more expensive as a 'system' than the older PF, so I would expect the lights to cost significantly more than the older PF ones. A price point of $10 in the US usually implies a similar number for pounds or Euro, especially with exchange rates being what they are right now.

 I'm still struggling with pairing my trains. Ongoing email 'ping pong' with TLG isn't getting me any closer to a solution:cry2:

 

 

I've managed to acquire 7 sets of PUP controllers, hubs, and motors on eBay, with each set costing £40-45. :) Lego in general seems to go up in cost over time, so it doesn't surprise me that the new system would be a bit more expensive. You're right, the new lights are $3.50 more than the old lights in the US. By itself, that's not too outrageous, but we'll see what the rest go for in January (When TLG has said they'll go on sale individually).

Regarding your pairing woes, I hope Lego can help, but sadly I suspect you might be SOL until you can upgrade your firmware. I hope you find some way to do so.

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On 8/4/2018 at 4:10 AM, sed6 said:

You guys aren't going to believe this!

Earlier today I emailed Lego and asked...

>>>Hello-Is it possible to order a second (perhaps unpowered) engine for the new 60197 Passenger Train to complete the look? A response from a LEGO rep to a recent review of the set suggests to contact you to inquire. Thanks very much. -Scott<<<

This was the reply I just got...

>>>Dear Scott,

What a gorgeous train, huh? We can definitely get you set up with a second engine for the new Passenger Train 60197.

Unfortunately we don't have unpowered motors, so we will have to send you another powered motor to complete the train's look. I've already got an order set up to be sent out to you: xxxxxxxx (edited)

The motor is currently on backorder until 8/31 but when it's back in stock it'll ship right out to you! You'll then see it in 7-10 business days.

If there's anything else we can help you with, Scott, please don't hesitate to email us back or give us a call at the number provided above. I hope you have a fantastic weekend!

We want to make sure we're doing a good job for you, so you’ll always find the link to a four-question survey in our emails. Please tell us how we did today.

Please let us know if you need anything else.

Kind regards,

Siobhan

LEGO® Service<<<

How awesome is TLG? I've never even heard of that level of customer service! I hope each of you can get one too!

sed6 you certainly struck gold with this Lego customer service rep. I hope its not just the motor they send out.

On 8/5/2018 at 5:24 AM, Goldenmasamune said:

I went ahead and emailed them asking lf I can purchase a second engine 

Hi Goldenmasamune. Did you get a reply from CS?

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I had a chat session with TLG recently.  Usually very good.  I asked if I could get the parts for a second passenger 60197 and was told to go onto the bricks n pieces section and do it myself.  some of those pieces are out of stock.  I asked if this was surely a Frequently Asked Question but the chat dropped. 

Usually brilliant, but brutal this time.  Surely LEGO know that most people buying or getting trains as presents would love a longer train.  My almost 2 year old has inherited a trough of duplo from his sister and he is mainly interested in making the longest train he can (with towers on top).  I reckon that if the did an extra car set separately, most people would add one or more to their cart upon first purchase of the train itself.

 

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I tried emailing customer service about getting another loco/engine. Couple of emails back and forth and the upshot is I’m getting nothing lol. They said 

 

The parts for the train engine are not currently for sale, but will be for sale some point in the future.  They will be sold as kits, but as of now, we do not have a release date.

So no joy for me in getting a free loco.

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46 minutes ago, Heppy9 said:

They will be sold as kits

That doesn't sound bad though :) I wonder what they meant by engine. To me, as non-english speaking person it might mean just motor...

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8 minutes ago, Bartosz said:

That doesn't sound bad though :) I wonder what they meant by engine. To me, as non-english speaking person it might mean just motor...

Yeah it’s a bit vague so not sure what to expect. I’m probably thinking just a powered up train motor as a kit. Would be nice if it was a full train section.

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4 hours ago, retrotecchie said:

If they weigh in at less than the £5.49 that the original PF lights sell right now for then this could be a good thing.

PF battery box, receiver, train motor and two sets of lights come in at well under £50...which is about the difference in price between the older train sets and the 2018 models.

Take the old 7938 Passenger Train at £79.99. Deduct, say, £30 for the bundled Power Functions, and that leaves the 'bare train' costing around £50. The new PUP train at £119.99 gives me the impression that the Smart Hub, controller and train motor together come in at around £60 or higher.

Going on that basis, it seems the new PUP is far more expensive as a 'system' than the older PF, so I would expect the lights to cost significantly more than the older PF ones. A price point of $10 in the US usually implies a similar number for pounds or Euro, especially with exchange rates being what they are right now.

I'm still struggling with pairing my trains. Ongoing email 'ping pong' with TLG isn't getting me any closer to a solution:cry2:

 

 

Have you tried taking your train away from your home and to another place to try pairing?  Just to rule out RF interference in your home/location.  

PUP LED might be a bit more expensive than the old PF LED if they have to add an additional component to ID the LED to the PUP HUB. 

 

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5 hours ago, scottwb2010 said:

sed6 you certainly struck gold with this Lego customer service rep. I hope its not just the motor they send out.

Hi Goldenmasamune. Did you get a reply from CS?


I have not. I haven't had lego take this long for a response before either; I have a confirmation that I submitted something on 8/4/2018, but I haven't received any more correspondence. 

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16 hours ago, dr_spock said:

Have you tried taking your train away from your home and to another place to try pairing?  Just to rule out RF interference in your home/location.  

PUP LED might be a bit more expensive than the old PF LED if they have to add an additional component to ID the LED to the PUP HUB. 

 

My place is in the middle of nowhere with the nearest neighbour about half a mile away. The only source of RF is my wi-fi router and my wife's laptop, both of which I have turned off to rule out interference, but no improvement. I have no problem pairing any controller with any hub...they just won't pair 2:1 or 1:2. Even with the Cargo and a controller paired on Red and the Passenger and a controller paired on Red, they do not talk to each other.

I have had yet another email from Customer Services with yet another suggestion to try but it is all getting a little complicated now. This certainly isn't anywhere near as "Just Plug and Go" as Power Functions was!

I shall report back on any developments as soon as I have had my second coffee.

As for any additional components required for ID'ing PUP devices, just a simple resistor or two should not add too much to the cost, although I suspect it won't even be that complicated, looking at how the train motor is wired.

 

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Aha.....we have a breakthrough! Following the latest missive from TLG appears to have done the trick!

Here is the method, which took a couple of attempts, but appears to solve the problem.

1. Reset both hubs to 'factory reset' by holding the power button for five or six seconds until the LED starts flashing purple. This clears out any pairing data and resets the hubs to default status.

2. Pair a train to a controller by pressing the hub button and the controller green button simultaneously. Both the hub and the controller will flash white a couple of times and then they will pair. Make a note of the colour they pair on.

3. Power off by pressing and holding the green button on the controller. When the controller powers down, the hub will lose communication and switch itself off. Wait until the hub finishes flashing and then powers down.

4. Repeat the above with the second train and the same controller. Make a note of the colour they pair on.

5. If the pairing is a different colour, press the hub button to cycle through the five 'channels' until the colour matches the first pairing.

6. Switch off the system by pushing and holding the green button on the controller until the second hub powers down.

7. And this is the bit where timing is everything...power up the first hub and controller. They should 'remember' their initial pairing and come up connected within a second or so. Leave the hub and controller paired, then power up the second hub.

8. Allow the second hub to begin searching (LED flashing white) and on the second or third flash, give the green button on the controller a very quick press. 

9. All being well, the second hub should pair with the controller on the same colour as the first hub. This may take a couple of attempts as it appears the timing of the button press on the controller is quite critical....you have to do it while the flashing LED on the hub is on, rather than off.

10. When you do get both hubs paired to the controller (and with your motors on each train in opposite ports) you can now control both trains with the same controller.

11. When you have the pairing established, just switch on the second controller. This is the easy bit as it will simply pair automatically with the two hubs and existing controller.

 

So, a lot of email ping pong and a week since I got the trains, but finally I have the PUP working as it should. No firmware update required, but a fairly complicated procedure with the timing of certain button presses seemingly quite critical.

Once you have sorted the pairing, as above, then the next time you power everything up, it 'remembers' the settings (FLASH?) and just comes up paired every time, until you want to unpair or change the settings.

Now, if LEGO had just set out this process in the instructions, or had instructions on their website, this would have saved me a lot of hassle and messing about but I got there in the end.

 

But.....and this could be an interesting 'but'. Looking at the way I originally got one train paired to one controller (Blue) and the second pair (also Blue) ignored the first, I suspect that the five available channels (Red, Green, Blue, Yellow and Purple) plus the two ports (A and B) giving ten possible control channels could well be expanded. The fact I had a controller and train on Blue and yet they did not interact with the second controller and train on Blue leads me to conclude that the device pairing (device ID?) is important, leading me to think that it is possible to have five hubs paired to one controller (ten channels) and additional hubs paired with a second controller, thus giving ten channels with each possible pairing combination. So one controller and five hubs in one pairing, giving ten channels and then a different set of pairings giving you the same possible ten channels, but independent of the first....and so on and so forth. If that is the case, then this really could be a game changer for multi train control on large layouts.

 

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51 minutes ago, retrotecchie said:

But.....and this could be an interesting 'but'. Looking at the way I originally got one train paired to one controller (Blue) and the second pair (also Blue) ignored the first, I suspect that the five available channels (Red, Green, Blue, Yellow and Purple) plus the two ports (A and B) giving ten possible control channels could well be expanded. The fact I had a controller and train on Blue and yet they did not interact with the second controller and train on Blue leads me to conclude that the device pairing (device ID?) is important, leading me to think that it is possible to have five hubs paired to one controller (ten channels) and additional hubs paired with a second controller, thus giving ten channels with each possible pairing combination. So one controller and five hubs in one pairing, giving ten channels and then a different set of pairings giving you the same possible ten channels, but independent of the first....and so on and so forth. If that is the case, then this really could be a game changer for multi train control on large layouts.

 

Yay, glad to you got it working. :) I wonder if the firmware update makes it less fiddly...my timing has never been that great and its seemed easier, or maybe I was just totally coincidental. Either way as you say, once paired, they all just connect.

Re. Above, yes, 100% correct! They do remember their pairings via their unique device ids. In the latest Lego Ambassador Network FAQ they call them "networks". There can be an unlimited number of those independent networks in the same room as much as RF interference allows. You just need some way of remembering which controllers are paired with which hubs as the colors won't be enough to go on (colored tiles?)

Edited by Mr Hobbles

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