Flash Element for Power Functions Lights

[runekokholm]

Thanks for the comments.

First, a few examples of the functionality that can be achieved with different frequencies:

Plus an example with multiple Flash Elements combined:

And strobe-light simulation for aircraft:

In terms of production:

I would strongly go for both A and B versions to allow the extra fun this would bring to the models (e.g. the two animations above). In terms of production you can get the internal components in a size and at a cost that makes the product viable and in the proposed format. I am working on a few other designs (more finger-friendly) and will also consider the suggestion with fewer light/delay options, e.g. 5.

Edited October 16, 2013 by runekokholm

[Rook]

Supported! LEGO really needs to expand their Power Functions options.

[Ralph]

Seeing the images with the flash patterns makes this product even more impressive. I already supported this, to bad I cant cast another vote for it.

Ralph

[Front]

Thanks for the comments.

First, a few examples of the functionality that can be achieved with different frequencies:

Plus an example with multiple Flash Elements combined:

And strobe-light simulation for aircraft:

In terms of production:

I would strongly go for both A and B versions to allow the extra fun this would bring to the models (e.g. the two animations above). In terms of production you can get the internal components in a size and at a cost that makes the product viable and in the proposed format. I am working on a few other designs (more finger-friendly) and will also consider the suggestion with fewer light/delay options, e.g. 5.

Now try and explain how many PF components you need in each of these cases to get the shown effect. Assuming there is no other PF elements (motors etc.) in the model.

Erland

Part Design

[Ralf]

I like this feature of flashing lights so i have orderd now the 3mm flashing LEDs including resistors for 9V.

I have asked the seller about the flashing frequenz he say it is 1 Hz this is perfect for the 1st test.

So it is possible to build the LED in a very small Part.

If i have finished the first one i will upload the pic.

And the price is cheap 10 LEDs around 3$

P.S. I will build the parts that they look like an original Lego part!

[Ralf]

@runekokholm

I forgot to say that i like your ideas of the flashing lights!!! Great.

[runekokholm]

Now try and explain how many PF components you need in each of these cases to get the shown effect. Assuming there is no other PF elements (motors etc.) in the model.

Erland

Part Design

Hi Erland

The PF Light and Flash element combinations shown here probably wouldn't appear in a set due to price, however it's for inspiration and what can be achieved with PF Lights and Flash Element. Kids will get inspired and AFOL's will try it out. I've also included an example of PF Lights and Flash Element as it could (very likely) appear in a set.

PF Lights use very little power, and adding several to 1 battery box shouldn't be an issue. PF Battery box can handle up to 4 x M motors - PF LIghts are much more energy conservative. Remember each PF Light outlet has two diodes - this is not shown below.

Crane diagram:

Jetport Firetruck diagram:

Jetplane diagram:

Below an example of a very likely set (not this but similar): 1 x battery box + 1 M motor + PF Lights + PF Flash Element. Another set would include the B version of the Flash Element.

(M motor not shown but would be added between Battery box and Flash Element).

Edited October 17, 2013 by runekokholm

[Brickthus]

Functionally this is a good idea. The trick is to make it both easy to use and cheap.

I made a circuit to control two of the existing light bricks:

Originally I wanted to make train lights turn on in the direction the train was moving.

Then I added a latch function to keep them on in the previous direction of movement when the train stops.

Then I added an alternate flashing function. This has a frequency and duty cycle proportional to the capacitor values but this could be enhanced with a variable frequency as you suggest.

For an easy-to-use product I suggest a new 2x2 brick in the middle of the light brick, perhaps a different colour to differentiate it from the original light brick.

I have been tempted to re-do the circuit in a light brick to make the two LEDs turn on in opposite C1/C2 polarity. Therefore flashing would be easier, railway signalling a doddle and an AC input would turn both LEDs on as before.

Perhaps the new 2x2 brick for your idea could have a rotatable frequency setting with a Technic axle socket input, like the PF pole reverser switch?

Mark

[runekokholm]

Nice idea, but I think it's a bit too complicated. I suggest to get rid of the variant: apart from startup time, they're equivalent. Next, I would simplify it to only 4 possibilities, instead of 9x9. This would also make it usable for children.Good luck!

Thanks! I will consider fewer options, but also like that you can combine it all within 1 second (i.e. 10 settings with increment of 0.1 seconds). I hope to post a few examples tomorrow of a few different design options.

I really like this idea. Have you done research into the costs needed to build custom molds to make this yourself? My suggestion would be to not wait for Cuusoo (as others have said, it is very unlikely TLG would make this part), but rather to post your own Kickstarter campaign for it, and message to the community directly. Rather than just vote for something that may or may not ever come to life, I'd much rather pledge my support today by contributing funds that would allow you to make and sell it now. Just a thought.

Also, have you modeled out the internals, to make sure everything would fit (dials, IC, etc.)? Hopefully so, because your form factor is 100% spot on!

--Rob

Rough financial estimate suggests this can be a viable product manufactured in a reasonable batch and I agree Kickstarter is an option if it is made as an official element. Cuusoo is good for verifying, but voting with money is perhaps the ultimate product validator.

Functionally this is a good idea. The trick is to make it both easy to use and cheap.

I made a circuit to control two of the existing light bricks:

Originally I wanted to make train lights turn on in the direction the train was moving.

Then I added a latch function to keep them on in the previous direction of movement when the train stops.

Then I added an alternate flashing function. This has a frequency and duty cycle proportional to the capacitor values but this could be enhanced with a variable frequency as you suggest.

For an easy-to-use product I suggest a new 2x2 brick in the middle of the light brick, perhaps a different colour to differentiate it from the original light brick.

I have been tempted to re-do the circuit in a light brick to make the two LEDs turn on in opposite C1/C2 polarity. Therefore flashing would be easier, railway signalling a doddle and an AC input would turn both LEDs on as before.

Perhaps the new 2x2 brick for your idea could have a rotatable frequency setting with a Technic axle socket input, like the PF pole reverser switch?

Mark

Hi Mark – thanks for input.

1) I agree on usability and price. I hope to have a few other designs available tomorrow, also one where technic axle (or brick separator) is used to adjust settings.

2) Flash element incorporated in PF Lights: yes, agree this would be neat, however cost-wise there is an argument to separate the two, so if only lights are needed you don’t pay for Flash Element.

3) The train project is very exciting; it could probably do with some other add-on PF elements…

---

Here is an functional example with LED and two adjustable knobs for setting light/flash duration and delay to give an impression of functions. Actual light/delay settings will happen stepwise, with e.g. 4 or 10 settings to choose from: more on this in the coming element design update.

Actual components will be "shrinked" to fit in a 2x2 which is next step, but for demo purpose this will do. Here is the video:

Edited October 18, 2013 by runekokholm

[runekokholm]

A design update based on feedback: A and B version replaced by one element that allows switching between A and B state + easier adjusment of settings via technic axle:

And this one below to compare 5 vs. 9 frequency settings. A hypothesis: either you fine tune and use the entire spectrum (AFOLs?) or the exact frequency matters less and you have it either as Min or Max (kids?). I could be wrong.

3 frequency settings is also an option (0.1 + 0.5 + 0.9 seconds) as allows you to create most simulations (emergency, rail-road crossing, plane) but 3 settings limits the number of flash combinations you can make (e.g. the animated jetport firetruck shown above) - but maybe this isn't important?

(EDIT: pictures updated + extra added 10.02 CET on OCT 20. 2013)

Edited October 20, 2013 by runekokholm

[Gene]

Interesting! Is there anyway to push buttons to switch the pre-program speed and sequence and save more space during plug-in?

Edited October 19, 2013 by Gene

[runekokholm]

Interesting! Is there anyway to push buttons to switch the pre-program speed and sequence and save more space during plug-in?

Hi Gene

Thanks for the suggestion. A pushbutton is also an option and it would save space.

The challenge I see with a digital input is: 1) how do you change/store settings when you have the Flash Element separately and not connected? Digital input does not store settings when not "on" and 2) if you have the flash element alone how would you know the current settings? I believe the final version must provide a clear visible cue on current settings and you must be able to adjust settings on an isolated Flash Element, i.e. not having to connect it to the PF circuit to adjust frequency. This can also be achieved with a pushbutton but then I think the internal electronic components needed will take up even more space.

The Flash Element should be 2 x 2 studs in size to match current PF range and also to ensure two Flash Elements can fit next to each other on e.g. IR Receiver (so a total of 4 studs wide), The rear of the Flash Element (where A/B switch is currently located) still requires more space (2.5-3 studs) but this should be ok; other PF connections need same space for their wires. You can create a recess in the 2 x 2 element (assuming a button is replacing pin hole in drawings above) to make it fit 2 x 2 and still adjustable via a finger or small element; this is possible.

I'll give is some more thought - it may inspire for other ideas to this element.

[paul_delahaye]

I think Cuusoo is floored when it comes to new parts. Although the 10'000 supporter limit seems about right for a complete set, I think it should be nearer 1000 or 2500 supporters for a new eliment. I've seen several great ideas which on Cuusoo for parts which should be made tomorrow, but I fear they will unfortunately never make it through the current 10k supporters process.

I support you and wish you all the best with this one. I hope it becomes a reality.

Paul

[Front]

Some replies to others user's amazement of my thought that this will not be a LEGO product.

Please note that although I am a Part Designer at LEGO, it's another part of development that design and engineer PF and Mindstorm products. So I have no direct involement in the creation of these products.

These are my personal views.

Here my original post:

How much value can this add to LEGO products ? Absolutely close to nothing.

Erland, Part Design

The main target of Lego products are still kids. Kids love blinking lights - I can see this being applied both in models such as fire brigade truck and construction vehicles. And for AFOLs - it would do good in wide variety of MOCs.

Lights are not used very much in LEGO products at the moment. I think that the designers find the cost of the play value of light too high compared to what play valu can be achieved with other parts and functions.

I think kids mostly play with their products in the daytime, and lights to me seem like less attractive to kids compared to what can be put into the product with other parts.

Try and compare the cost at shop-at-home of the PF light with a PF motor.

Personally I think you are jumping to conclusions a bit here. In my opinion it would add something to Lego products....namely, blinking lights!

Wouldn't this make a nice addition on some of the construction models?

....

Yes, blinking lights vs. something else that in my view create for more play value.

Rather odd comment, you being an AFOL and parts designer? Flashig lights have been a stable of electrical LEGO from the 80's 12V trains up to the long 9V era

....

Just because lights and flashing lights have been in products in the past, does not make it something that added great value, or will add great value now.

Hi Erland

The PF Light and Flash element combinations shown here probably wouldn't appear in a set due to price, however it's for inspiration and what can be achieved with PF Lights and Flash Element. Kids will get inspired and AFOL's will try it out. I've also included an example of PF Lights and Flash Element as it could (very likely) appear in a set.

PF Lights use very little power, and adding several to 1 battery box shouldn't be an issue. PF Battery box can handle up to 4 x M motors - PF LIghts are much more energy conservative. Remember each PF Light outlet has two diodes - this is not shown below.

Crane diagram:

Jetport Firetruck diagram:

Jetplane diagram:

Below an example of a very likely set (not this but similar): 1 x battery box + 1 M motor + PF Lights + PF Flash Element. Another set would include the B version of the Flash Element.(M motor not shown but would be added between Battery box and Flash Element).

Thank you for the explanation Rune. I am sceptical about how much this add to the LEGO products, but it is still a cool design you have made, giving a very flexible platform for blinking lights. I just think it's way too expensive with lights at the moment. Look at the amount of products using the PF lights. Only two TECHNIC sets plus some LEGO EDUCATION sets ! The amount of lights used must be very low compared to e.g. M-motor, and I suspect this explains the unfavorable price of lights, extension cables etc.

Volumes give lower prices.

Erland

Part Design

[Ralf]

I think the flash light parts are a good chance to inovate the Lego products

But also i know that Lego want to sell volume not only 10000 parts per year.

If you look in the past the most popular product ever was the 41999 in the moment the price is about 350€ and the people still buy it!

My conclusion is if there are products with an "must have" factor money is in the second row.

The most AFOLs i know have enough money to fund their hobby and they are capable to buy expensive sets.

But this is only my view.

Edited October 20, 2013 by Ralf

[Ralf]

Here is my "low cost solution" for flashing lights (45 cent without cable).

I can´t change the time and delay but the flashing frequenz is like an original car (1,5 times per second).

Now i want to use a very small part of Lego and i will put the LED and resistor inside.

Further it is possible to use the parts for warning lamps at a crane or similar vehicle.

Flash right: http://www.pic-upload.de/view-21076763/right.jpg.html

Flash left: http://www.pic-upload.de/view-21076764/left.jpg.html

P.S. But it is much more better to use a final solution with original Lego parts like runekokholms proposal!

[wimpie3]

I would absolutely LOVE to have this... I already added this to my Ultimate 42009, but the electronics are bigger (about the size of a matchbox).

[runekokholm]

I just think it's way too expensive with lights at the moment. Look at the amount of products using the PF lights. Only two TECHNIC sets plus some LEGO EDUCATION sets ! The amount of lights used must be very low compared to e.g. M-motor, and I suspect this explains the unfavorable price of lights, extension cables etc.

Volumes give lower prices.

Erland

Part Design

Hi Erland.

Volume giving lower prices is a valid argument provided PF Lights in their current state are considered valuable (otherwise lower price is irrelevant).

One could also argue that the low use of PF Lights points towards them having a perceived low play value (also compared to motors) whereby adding them to a model wouldn’t affect the purchase decision: thus if production of PF Lights is increased to max and price lowered to min the lights wouldn’t become proportionally more attractive. Reason: 1 x motor is more fun than 2 x PF Lights but 1 x motor is also more fun than 4 x PF Lights (even a lit, but still train isn’t much fun). Increase value by increasing playability: Light elements combined with action/flash makes them attractive and also make a potential sales driver for models. That’s just my feeling.

Here is my "low cost solution" for flashing lights (45 cent without cable).

I can´t change the time and delay but the flashing frequenz is like an original car (1,5 times per second).

Now i want to use a very small part of Lego and i will put the LED and resistor inside.

Further it is possible to use the parts for warning lamps at a crane or similar vehicle.

P.S. But it is much more better to use a final solution with original Lego parts like runekokholms proposal!

Hi Ralf;

I think your picture should inspire to shields/“Open end” PF connectors, i.e. one as a power source for a small microcontroller or other unit to drive light systems, perhaps it comes with a small knob for regulating the voltage? That can also be made at home of course…

As you write, LEDs off the shelf in internet shops can be had for very little money and that is one way to go when upgrading bigger technic (and other) sets with lights. An interesting add-on here is what options there are for solder-less implementation of LEDs with models, e.g. a “shell” similar to what the PF Lights already have to fit in beam holes.

I would absolutely LOVE to have this... I already added this to my Ultimate 42009, but the electronics are bigger (about the size of a matchbox).

I like the video; it’s cool. Looking forward to seeing more videos from you. What type of unit controls the lights? and are you able to control lights remotely? I guess next step is adding a small speaker system with engine sound :-)

Here are a few items to play around with for next scaled-down version of demo flash element. The white plastic in center of potentiometer can be molded using a heated metal pin with same dimensions as a Technic pin to make the "X" pattern for, well, Technic pin or element separator to adjust frequency. These components, however, are not likely to be the actual components but what I could get my hands on earlier today. You can also get them in smaller versions.

[Ralf]

I hope your solution find a way to the market as an original part!

I like this function of flashing lights and my solution is only a simple function with a fixed flash frequenz of 1,5 Hz.

The controller for the flash frequenz is inside the 3mm LEDs that is ok for my applications so i need only some resistors.

How ever it´s much more better to use finished parts like yours!

I´ll support your product devinitively.

Greetings Ralf

[BondemandClausen]

Hi Rune

I strongly support your idea, and i think TLG should consider it with an open mind.

In my MOC's it would be just what i need to make the last finish.

Erland's argument that it is too expensive with light is not water proof. If you can buy LED Christmas chains, with hundreds of bulb's at the prize only 10% or less compared too TLG's 2 LED's, then i think it is only a strategic decision why so few sets have light's.

The thing TLG should analyze, now that the numbers of AFOL are growing, is to find out whether there is a market for more Electric applications to the PF series.

And your suggestion is most welcome, from my point of view :-)

Avanced or not

Keep up the good Work with your idea, and don't give it up!!

[runekokholm]

The thing TLG should analyze, now that the numbers of AFOL are growing, is to find out whether there is a market for more Electric applications to the PF series.

Hi Clausen

Thanks for the feedback! The work continues.

Yes; hopefully a lot of data is being mined and scenarios created inside TLG on this, because in general there is a lot of potential and opportunities in PF series and extensions to it; both low-tech and high-tech.

Rune

[runekokholm]

Time for an update:

Setup now without Arduino, but electronic design pending iteration. Some components also pending, including resistors with 4 and 5 step-wise adjustment (current have smooth adjustment). Making the components fit in a 2x2 brick is going to be a challenge, but let's see! First shell ready for 3D print and tests.

[andythenorth]

(Long time since I studied electronics and even then wasn't very good at it...)

Could a flash unit adapt voltage so it runs from 1.5v? This would permit the use of a single AAA or AA battery as power source.

I figure that the LEDs, ICs etc will have to reduce anyway from the ~7.2v or ~9v on the PF bus, so might be possible to work with lower voltages?

[Lighti]

just a stupid question, is the design of a 2x2 brick still "protected"?

if not you or someone else could just try to make those as a 3rd party, via kickstarter or indigogo or whatever.

As I doubt Lego will consider it (only 2 Sets having lights is a pretty valid point by "Front", why should Lego bother with such a complex part, if they don't bother with lights at all.)

[runekokholm]

(Long time since I studied electronics and even then wasn't very good at it...)

Could a flash unit adapt voltage so it runs from 1.5v? This would permit the use of a single AAA or AA battery as power source.

I figure that the LEDs, ICs etc will have to reduce anyway from the ~7.2v or ~9v on the PF bus, so might be possible to work with lower voltages?

Yes; it’s possible to use 1.5V or a 3V button-cell if it’s just any circuit with/without flashing LEDs you want. The 9V battery in this setup is used for consistency as PF is a 9V system.

just a stupid question, is the design of a 2x2 brick still "protected"?

if not you or someone else could just try to make those as a 3rd party, via kickstarter or indigogo or whatever.

As I doubt Lego will consider it (only 2 Sets having lights is a pretty valid point by "Front", why should Lego bother with such a complex part, if they don't bother with lights at all.)

It’s a good question;

The Flash Element can be made as a 2x2 brick but must have PF circuit interfaces:

from my understanding a standard 2x2 brick can be manufactured legally as the patent for the “standard” LEGO bricks has expired and copyright isn’t strong enough to prevent reproduction of the 2x2 bricks overall design, however I believe TLG still holds the copyright on the 2x2 bricks inner design (uniqueness)? With PF elements TLG holds the copyright (if not patent) to the design of the power connectors between PF units, meaning to manufacture an element with PF connector design you need an arrangement with TLG and you would want to involve them anyway when things get tangible enough for them to spend time on it. When creating a Cuusoo project you also assign TLG some manufacturing rights to the item.

You and Front are probably right that light elements are not a priority for TLG – I’m sure this decision is backed by data and research however personally I find the lack of light and add-ons a bit disappointing, but perhaps kids these days are a lot more feature demanding if competition is a videogame via 50” flat-screen…