Larger Pneumatics

[Lakop]

Hi People,

What are the chances of Lego creating some larger pneumatics. I could easily do with some double in size (length) for making outriggers etc.

what do we think?

PS: Apologies if it's been talked about before.

H

[Blakbird]

Chances are very low. Many have been asking for this for many years and it hasn't happened. Pneumatics are very expensive parts for LEGO to produce and very few sets have them. They would only make new parts if there was a business case that showed they were needed (function could not be achieved by other parts). The Design Team has mostly switched over to Power Functions and linear actuators because of the ease of motorization.

[allanp]

It has been talked about before, but no need to apologize, keep telling TLG we want these guys!

http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=62225&hl=+longer%20+pneumatic#entry1116926

[jantjeuh]

The Design Team has mostly switched over to Power Functions and linear actuators because of the ease of motorization.

Which was a good decision IMO. Sure, pneumatics come closer to the 'real thing' (hydraulics) in terms of looks and function, but linear actuators are more user friendly, far easier to motorize/remote control, and cheaper to produce.

[allanp]

Chances are very low.

I don't think they are very low

Many have been asking for this for many years and it hasn't happened.

Yeah TLG, so what you gonna do about it, HUH?!

Pneumatics are very expensive parts for LEGO to produce and very few sets have them.

They ain't that expensive compared to many other parts such as LAs (which usually require many more parts to work than pneumatics) and servo's which so far has only appeared in one and a half sets! If they were to make pneumatics a more suitable size they would become more useful, and so more used.

They would only make new parts if there was a business case that showed they were needed (function could not be achieved by other parts).

I think I have done that, tho it's kinda spread out all over Eurobricks

The Design Team has mostly switched over to Power Functions and linear actuators because of the ease of motorization.

Pneumatics are easier to motorize. To motorize a pneumatic at the end of an excavator boom would have been easier and better than a long line of axles and universal joints. If you are talking about easier to make them remore controlled, that's a different thing however, this too is not a problem as a valve can have it's movement mechanicly limited in either direction, meaning all that is needed is a short motorised side to side movement for operational RC pneumatics, of course better valves would make it even better. Besides, just because they have gone in one direction (endless gearboxes and LAs) doesn't mean they are stuck going down that road, in fact they would do better to change things up a bit and end this stagnation IMHO.

Edited September 12, 2013 by allanp

[dandexter]

Does anyone know of any 3rd party companies that make larger pneumatics?

[Junpei]

http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=34722 I know it's a little bit off topic, but I would love this, it would make RCing pneumatics extremely easy. I saw a youtube vid of a longer pneumatic cylinder, I don't know the url tho.

[clarkdef]

Ok don't shoot me, but I think actuators are more realistic in function. I Have used hiabs and forklifts at my previous roles and you can control them very precisely, the lego pumps fly out all the way! There's no control.

[D3K]

I'm currently making a "pneumatic mayhem" MOC, and could definitely have a use for some long actuators!:-)

The current solution (the brackets) work to a certain extent, but I don't have any, and they are WAY too expensive to buy (off topic: if anyone is interested in trading some of them for some micro motors, shoot me a pm).

The old cylinders can of course be mounted back to back, but it takes up too much space, and puts pieces under stress...:-(

[jantjeuh]

Wow, those pneumatic brackets are damn expensive indeed nowadays. Good thing I bought four of them for cheap 3 years ago when I was bricklinking 8275

[Blakbird]

Ok don't shoot me, but I think actuators are more realistic in function. I Have used hiabs and forklifts at my previous roles and you can control them very precisely, the lego pumps fly out all the way! There's no control.

I would change the wording somewhat. Linear actuators are not at all realistic in function because real heavy equipment hydraulics function nothing like linear actuators at all. However, linear actuators are realistic in motion. The main reason the pneumatics are not realistic in motion is because air is compressible but hydraulic oil is not (much). Having a valve with a throttleable orifice would help a lot in terms of control.

[Alasdair Ryan]

I have 4 sets of brackets 8 in total,so I think I have enough....I also have four micro-motors so I don't need any of those ether...

[Lakop]

To me a pneumatic cylinder looks the part and have a bit more strength to them. I love the build of them and they feel solid. The linear actuators feel a bit flimsy. I've had pneumatics now for about twenty years and always look to use them first, they are easier to mount and connect. I saw a vehicle this morning which I plan to build soon, it was that which led to this post. A larger pneumatic cylinder would be the ideal part for the function I have in mind.

If they could incorporate one into a new set I would be at the front of the queue.

H

[clarkdef]

I would change the wording somewhat. Linear actuators are not at all realistic in function because real heavy equipment hydraulics function nothing like linear actuators at all. However, linear actuators are realistic in motion. The main reason the pneumatics are not realistic in motion is because air is compressible but hydraulic oil is not (much). Having a valve with a throttleable orifice would help a lot in terms of control.

Yeah in function is the correct word? As in the functioning of the device seems alike. Where as the pneumatics are a representation of the real thing, even though they do function more like hydraulics than the actuators. It could be taken either way. Ok what I am trying to say then is the final package controls/functions more like the real thing...

[Alasdair Ryan]

Horace have you seen my pneumatic loader?

The telescopic boom on it uses three rams connected to each other.

[Lakop]

No, Alasdair, I don't think I have. Please post a link or image.

Thanks

H

[Alasdair Ryan]

http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=72356

[allanp]

I would change the wording somewhat. Linear actuators are not at all realistic in function because real heavy equipment hydraulics function nothing like linear actuators at all. However, linear actuators are realistic in motion. The main reason the pneumatics are not realistic in motion is because air is compressible but hydraulic oil is not (much). Having a valve with a throttleable orifice would help a lot in terms of control.

Such a valve would help alot. I think making the pneumatics longer would help alot as well because of the leverage advantage you would gain.

[SNIPE]

you can connect two large phumatics hoses together with the two yellow lego brackets

Or maybe this could give you some ideas: http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=81513&hl=

[allanp]

Yes you can use those rare and expensive brackets but it's ugly and unrealistic.

Molds wear out over time, so when they have to make new ones for pneumatics, they might as well make them how we want them right?

Edited September 14, 2013 by allanp

[LTC]

You probably search for something like this:

http://jaaptechnic.blogspot.de/2012/05/pneumatic-cylinder-longer-version.html?m=1

or even this:

http://jaaptechnic.blogspot.de/2013/06/custom-pneumatic-cylinder-v2.html?m=1#more

Edited September 14, 2013 by LTC

[jantjeuh]

Yes, those are awesome... and not for sale.

[Lakop]

Those bespoke pneumatics are exactly what I mean. Surely they could do them as a one off in a set and see the response. We know about the limitations of the pneumatics and so we will use our creativity, as we always do, to make them work in the way we want.

Below is the vehicle I saw in the week that gave me the idea for the larger pneumatics (see outriggers). H

[allanp]

Not only the outriggers, but every other cylinder, especially the one that telescopes the boom. However I don't think we can expect them to make them as a one off to see how much appeal they have. To make the molds for any new part is a big investment and they have to be sure that it will pay off before they make any new molds. I think part of the problem is that to build a case for any one isolated and complex (expensive) new part that ends with "will make you sell more sets" is difficult. For instance the introduction of LAs was not an isolated thing, it was introduced as part of a much bigger shift in technics overall direction which involved power functions and remote controlled play and so on. I would argue that that change in direction, whilst increasing play value in one way has decreased play value in other ways, reduced authenticity, reduced learning about how real machines work and also reduced a certain coolness of owning a smaller version of the real thing as opposed to just another toy replica. So I would like to see a new change in direction towards technics core values of authenticity, challenging building and so on and to do that, new parts are needed such as gearbox gears of various sizes and so on, as well as an overhaul of the pneumatic elements so that they lessen whatever weaknesses the current pneumatic system has, such as a perceived lack of control and lack of ease of remote controllability. Introducing longer cylinders is a big part of that as well as impoved pneumatic valves, or even a valve with an inbuilt, proportional (7 step) servo motor with finely adjustable limit stops but that's probably wishful thinking .

Edited September 15, 2013 by allanp