Vikings Vs Medieval Cogs

[Norro]

I saw this interesting link on Lugnet and thought it would probably merit discussion over here...

God Bless,

Nathan

[Mister Phes]

Errrrr Mr Norro do you happen to know what a "cog" is in this regard?

[The Hordesman]

Errrrr Mr Norro do you happen to know what a "cog" is in this regard?

A cog is a medieval ship, related to the galleon in some ways.

The difference is that a cog is primarily not really a warship, but mostly used for trade and troop transport.

Like castles, they have battlements(though not all- mostly those of military use).

Cog vs Longship?

-The longship is fast, while the cog is slow.

-The cog has heavy armaments, while the longship has nearly none.

-A cog has better defences for archers and since its taller, they can snipe the poor vikings.

-Longships are, while using more complex methods to be built, cheaper to build since they do not require too much wood.

-Both can carry almost the same amount of men- longboats uses their men as oarsmen.

In a sea battle (if we ignore tactics, which is all up to the leaders), I think cogs would win... If noone had fire arrows that is.

[Norro]

Errrrr Mr Norro do you happen to know what a "cog" is in this regard?

A cog is ....

Couldn't have said it better myself! Thanks.

God Bless,

Nathan

[Mister Phes]

A cog is a medieval ship, related to the galleon in some ways.

The difference is that a cog is primarily not really a warship, but mostly used for trade and troop transport.

Like castles, they have battlements(though not all- mostly those of military use).

Excellent work The Hordesman! Cogs are a bit before my time but I think I've heard of them somewhere before, although this source is very faint and I can't think where. Maybe it was a computer game... Maybe it was a documentary... Or maybe I'm having a false deja vu and confusing it with some thing else.

Where else can one find examples of a cog? In the seafaring sense...

[Dreamweb]

Here you can find another Lego cog, made by a Polish MOC-er Lomero.

[snefroe]

I also think the cog would win.

sure, a longboat (we call them "Drakar", btw, even though no one seems to know where that comes from; it's clearly not an original dutch word and the danes don't seem to know the word either) is fast but to my knoledge is not a "real" battleship, and more like the cog, a transport vessel.

Besides, the longboat needs to have manpower to move around, so who's going to do the fighting? I guess it also depends on the position at sea, close to shore or somewhere on the Atlantic. My guess is that the longboat probably wouldn't even survive a trip to the Atlantic, let alone go to battle.

[The Hordesman]

My guess is that the longboat probably wouldn't even survive a trip to the Atlantic, let alone go to battle.

Not true. Infact, due to the slim shape, extreme speed (for its time) and the travelmania, the longships indeed got all the way over the atlantic sea. All viking ships were built in pretty much the same way, since it was a fantastic method to build ships. In storms, longboat survives very well.

However, they were never meant for battles, mostly for transport of goods and men. But, not many people used large fleets in northern europe under their time, so they were pretty lucky.

[Norro]

Here you can find another Lego cog, made by a Polish MOC-er Lomero.

An excellent lego example! Thanks for posting the link.

God Bless,

Nathan

[Mister Phes]

My guess is that the longboat probably wouldn't even survive a trip to the Atlantic, let alone go to battle.

Not true. Infact, due to the slim shape, extreme speed (for its time) and the travelmania, the longships indeed got all the way over the atlantic sea. All viking ships were built in pretty much the same way, since it was a fantastic method to build ships. In storms, longboat survives very well.

However, they were never meant for battles, mostly for transport of goods and men. But, not many people used large fleets in northern europe under their time, so they were pretty lucky.

Now we can't really prove this until we build one of our own and test it out. So you laddies getting building and let me know how it goes...

[JoshW]

Here is my son's cog, known as the Wolf. He built it for the Colossal Castle Contest (entered under my name):

Josh

[SkaForHire]

I also think the cog would win.

sure, a longboat (we call them "Drakar", btw, even though no one seems to know where that comes from; it's clearly not an original dutch word and the danes don't seem to know the word either) is fast but to my knoledge is not a "real" battleship, and more like the cog, a transport vessel.

Besides, the longboat needs to have manpower to move around, so who's going to do the fighting? I guess it also depends on the position at sea, close to shore or somewhere on the Atlantic. My guess is that the longboat probably wouldn't even survive a trip to the Atlantic, let alone go to battle.

First, forgive the spelling errors I am about to commit...

Not true, as it has been said, Vikings made atlantic travels (Viking settlements in greenland, Iceland, Nova Scotia prove this)

Also, the galley, which is what a longboat essentially is, are wonderful in merchant raiding. The ealiest pirate threat was that of galleys in the mediterranian sea. the smaller galleys are quicker then cogs, and roman vessels similar to cogs. Many pirates of the Caribean started out on small galleys or long row boats. The power of manpower in battle is not really breached until the age of steam. Also, chinese pirates used galley like ships a good deal, also. As has been stated, there were no real fleets in the northern seas and ocean that could really affect the Viking menace, therefore the Vikings really did not fight sea battles. Their armor would have prevented sea engagements. (YOu would sink to the bottom in metal armor if you accedently fell off the ship in combat, hence in the middle ages the building of large pontoons for soldiers to fight on so they had less of a chance to go splash!) Vikings worked alot like the battle in the movie troy when the greeks row off and attack, well they would only come off the ship like that if the enemy was present, most of the time they parked outside a coastal villiage or a city on a river and raided unphased by enemy warriors.

[Mister Phes]

Here is my son's cog, known as the Wolf. He built it for the Colossal Castle Contest (entered under my name):

Josh

The wolf is rather good! How old is your son Mr JoshW?

By the way... Feel free to create a thread for the Wolf and we'll have a more indepth discussion about it - if you wish.

[snefroe]

I also think the cog would win.

sure, a longboat (we call them "Drakar", btw, even though no one seems to know where that comes from; it's clearly not an original dutch word and the danes don't seem to know the word either) is fast but to my knoledge is not a "real" battleship, and more like the cog, a transport vessel.

Besides, the longboat needs to have manpower to move around, so who's going to do the fighting? I guess it also depends on the position at sea, close to shore or somewhere on the Atlantic. My guess is that the longboat probably wouldn't even survive a trip to the Atlantic, let alone go to battle.

First, forgive the spelling errors I am about to commit...

Not true, as it has been said, Vikings made atlantic travels (Viking settlements in greenland, Iceland, Nova Scotia prove this)

Also, the galley, which is what a longboat essentially is, are wonderful in merchant raiding. The ealiest pirate threat was that of galleys in the mediterranian sea. the smaller galleys are quicker then cogs, and roman vessels similar to cogs. Many pirates of the Caribean started out on small galleys or long row boats. The power of manpower in battle is not really breached until the age of steam. Also, chinese pirates used galley like ships a good deal, also. As has been stated, there were no real fleets in the northern seas and ocean that could really affect the Viking menace, therefore the Vikings really did not fight sea battles. Their armor would have prevented sea engagements. (YOu would sink to the bottom in metal armor if you accedently fell off the ship in combat, hence in the middle ages the building of large pontoons for soldiers to fight on so they had less of a chance to go splash!) Vikings worked alot like the battle in the movie troy when the greeks row off and attack, well they would only come off the ship like that if the enemy was present, most of the time they parked outside a coastal villiage or a city on a river and raided unphased by enemy warriors.

No they didn't sail the Atlantc. They just sailed close to the north pole all the way basically from one island to another. They didn't have the knoledge of navigation they'd need to sail the Atlantic Ocean, at best, they sailed the periphery of the Atlantic. It's not a coincidence that the exploration of Earth only started when people had all sorts of navigational skills and most of all, decent maps... Vikings didn't have those... Vikings would never be able to do what Colombus did with his three ships, even though those were quite primitive as well... "Greenland", "Nova Scotia", "Iceland"? g... not mankind's greatest achievements, if you're asking me, with all due respect...

You're highly overestimating the concept of a galley. Man power is inferior to sails. You need too many people just to get your ship moving, you can't do large distances away from the coast, you can't really transport heavy cargo... You really think a galley would win a battle against Nelson's "Victory"? come on... a few shots from a canon and your man power is completely gone... But even as a transport ship a longboat is simply not as good as a cog... and yes, a cog was indeed capable of carrying armed soldiers...

I agree both, the cog and the longboat are merchant vessels, no question there. So sure, this entire discussion is nonsense... but entertaining... I remember having read on another website a discussion on what would be the strongest warship in the galaxy: a Borg cube or sw's Death star... Hilarious! X-D

[Dreamweb]

Borg cube or sw's Death star...

The answer is obvious... Resistance is futile! :-)

Now about the Wolf: I said that before and I'll say it again: I wish I had enough brown bricks to build a good looking, almost completely brown ship like this one... It's a great little ship and I really enjoy watching ships like this, a nice change from those green/white/yellow/red/blue etc ships that we see so often.

[SkaForHire]

I also think the cog would win.

sure, a longboat (we call them "Drakar", btw, even though no one seems to know where that comes from; it's clearly not an original dutch word and the danes don't seem to know the word either) is fast but to my knoledge is not a "real" battleship, and more like the cog, a transport vessel.

Besides, the longboat needs to have manpower to move around, so who's going to do the fighting? I guess it also depends on the position at sea, close to shore or somewhere on the Atlantic. My guess is that the longboat probably wouldn't even survive a trip to the Atlantic, let alone go to battle.

First, forgive the spelling errors I am about to commit...

Not true, as it has been said, Vikings made atlantic travels (Viking settlements in greenland, Iceland, Nova Scotia prove this)

Also, the galley, which is what a longboat essentially is, are wonderful in merchant raiding. The ealiest pirate threat was that of galleys in the mediterranian sea. the smaller galleys are quicker then cogs, and roman vessels similar to cogs. Many pirates of the Caribean started out on small galleys or long row boats. The power of manpower in battle is not really breached until the age of steam. Also, chinese pirates used galley like ships a good deal, also. As has been stated, there were no real fleets in the northern seas and ocean that could really affect the Viking menace, therefore the Vikings really did not fight sea battles. Their armor would have prevented sea engagements. (YOu would sink to the bottom in metal armor if you accedently fell off the ship in combat, hence in the middle ages the building of large pontoons for soldiers to fight on so they had less of a chance to go splash!) Vikings worked alot like the battle in the movie troy when the greeks row off and attack, well they would only come off the ship like that if the enemy was present, most of the time they parked outside a coastal villiage or a city on a river and raided unphased by enemy warriors.

No they didn't sail the Atlantc. They just sailed close to the north pole all the way basically from one island to another. They didn't have the knoledge of navigation they'd need to sail the Atlantic Ocean, at best, they sailed the periphery of the Atlantic. It's not a coincidence that the exploration of Earth only started when people had all sorts of navigational skills and most of all, decent maps... Vikings didn't have those... Vikings would never be able to do what Colombus did with his three ships, even though those were quite primitive as well... "Greenland", "Nova Scotia", "Iceland"? g... not mankind's greatest achievements, if you're asking me, with all due respect...

You're highly overestimating the concept of a galley. Man power is inferior to sails. You need too many people just to get your ship moving, you can't do large distances away from the coast, you can't really transport heavy cargo... You really think a galley would win a battle against Nelson's "Victory"? come on... a few shots from a canon and your man power is completely gone... But even as a transport ship a longboat is simply not as good as a cog... and yes, a cog was indeed capable of carrying armed soldiers...

I agree both, the cog and the longboat are merchant vessels, no question there. So sure, this entire discussion is nonsense... but entertaining... I remember having read on another website a discussion on what would be the strongest warship in the galaxy: a Borg cube or sw's Death star... Hilarious! X-D

History proves you wrong.

First, to island hop Vikings needed to go on the high seas to get to these places. (that includes parts of the atlantic ocean) They navigate like any other sailor up until the widespread use of the compas. Its not the greatest way to navigate but worked for centuries. I never said nova scotia was an essential to human history (sorry any canucks that are out there) I just said they made it that far, and there was high seas sailing that happened to do so. Therefore making the long boat a very versitile ship for traveling.

Again, History says other wise in the galley vrs Sail. Yes, you can move much much more cargo with sail and build larger ships, i never said you couldn't.

But in a fight the galley is the weapon of choice really until the age of sail and exploration. And the only reason the sailing ship replaced the galley for warefare is because the vast distances it had to travel, the advancement in cannon technology, and the fact that you didn't need as much labor on sailing ship. Some Spanish War Galleons kept the oars and (supposedly) had slaves man them in battle. This was for maneuverability in combat. Galleys can not hold the armament of a sailing war ship, and therefor become inferior in ranged fighting. On the other hand, the small skiff, galley, or long row boat was the starting and sometimes prefered ship of the classic pirate. Why? because he could row up to the back of a sailing ship and overtake its crew either by using stealth or speed.

As for the armed combatants, i don't think i said that a cog couldn't have them, I am sure many troop transports were cogs. So were some "battleships" that is why we have the terms like forecastle on a sailing ship, these were (historicly) litterly mini-castles on a ship where archers would sit behind and shoot. What i said was that Vikings did not participate in much sea combat, because they did not have the ship designs to allow armored troops to fight deck to deck. If you fall in the water you are just another anchor. The vikings didn't need to fight ship to ship, because as it has been said, rarely anyone had a navy of much consequense.

Cog vrs Longboat, Cog would win. Cog vrs lighter crewed galley, (and most war galleys had large rams on them) Galley would win, Nelsons HMS Victory vrs galley durring day, Nelson would surely win, Nelsons HMS Victory, vrs Galley at night, if its a large enough galley with enough men, they have a chance.

one last thought, sentries are posted on the decks of even modern ships for the reason to make sure no one rows up and trys to get on board, its not the big ships you worry about, its the little ones.

oh yeah, and Death Star all the way! LOL