Eurobricks Emperor Bonaparte Posted January 15, 2009 Eurobricks Emperor Posted January 15, 2009 I'm building a ship that's rather similar to the HMS Vanguard (a third-rate - 2 gun decks - ship of the line of the Royal Navy, build around 1795). My question is about the position of the steering wheel. Right now I've put it on the poop deck. I'm doubting if that is historically correct. Maybe the quarter deck is a better place to put the wheel? Or are both places suitable for putting the ships wheel? I know the Victory's wheel is under the poop deck, just in front of the mizzen mast so I start doubting if my wheel is at the right spot. Quote
Teddy Posted January 15, 2009 Posted January 15, 2009 Dear Bonaparte, just to be sure I double checked a third-rate ship of the line (70 guns) in one of my books. The ships wheel is not on the poop deck, but on the quarter deck. In front of the cabin doors. It sometimes is located just onder the poop deck, as kind of a car-port (for a lack of a better word) . Ofcourse there might be ships I'm not aware of which have an irragular postion of the ships wheel. Hope this answers your question? Kind regards, Teddy Quote
Eurobricks Emperor Bonaparte Posted January 15, 2009 Author Eurobricks Emperor Posted January 15, 2009 Thanks Teddy, that helps a lot! There reason I got confused is seeing this picture from Captain Green Hairs ship "La Mort Royale" based on the French ship Le Protecteur. It is also a 2-decker but it's almost 30 years older than the one I'm constructing (from 1760). Gallery La Mort Royale. Quote
Captain Blackmoor Posted January 15, 2009 Posted January 15, 2009 (edited) For so far I know about the steering wheel: After 1760 I believe, the British upgraded their ship designs. The steering wheel was located under the poop deck, like the Victory has. Before the "upgrade" the ship's wheel was located on the poop deck. For example: The Batavia was built in 1623 and had no steering wheel at that date. After a few years, around 1700, some ships were given a steering wheel at the poop deck, just before the mizzen mast. The Amsterdam was build around 1750 in british style. The steering wheel was at the same place as the Victory has, under the poop deck. If you want to build a realistic British ship from after 1760, I recommend to place the steering wheel under the poop deck. Hopefully this might help. Edit: I saw the "La Mort Royale" had not much space between the poop deck and the deck beneath it, I even doubt if the steering wheel fits there. Perhaps that's the reason why Cpt. Green Hair placed the steering wheel on the poop deck. If I'm wrong in this, my apologies for that. Edited January 15, 2009 by Cap'n Blackmoor Quote
Teddy Posted January 15, 2009 Posted January 15, 2009 (edited) Dear Bonaparte, I just checked Le Protecteur. I believe the wheel is also located on the quarterdeck, under the poopdeck. I might be mistaken, but I remember this to be a French idea which the British copied in their designs. Kind regards, Teddy Edited January 15, 2009 by Teddy Quote
AND3RSEN Posted January 15, 2009 Posted January 15, 2009 According to a book i own (Steven Biesty's Man-o-War) it is in fact on the quarter deck. Just thought i'd throw my opinion in. however, i stronly suggest to get the book, FANTASTIC details! Quote
Governor Mister Phes Posted January 31, 2009 Governor Posted January 31, 2009 After 1760 I believe, the British upgraded their ship designs. [...] For example: The Batavia was built in 1623 and had no steering wheel at that date. I thought the Batavia was Dutch - or have I misread your post? Quote
Captain Blackmoor Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 I thought the Batavia was Dutch - or have I misread your post? The Batavia was Dutch indeed. I don't think I have myself clear. The Batavia (1620) didn't even have a ship's wheel. After 1760 the British updated their vessels and placed the ship's wheel under the poop deck. This design was so good almost everyone copied the design into their ships. The right spot to place the ship's wheel is under the poop deck, it is most historic accurate. Quote
Governor Mister Phes Posted January 31, 2009 Governor Posted January 31, 2009 The Batavia (1620) didn't even have a ship's wheel. After 1760 the British updated their vessels and placed the ship's wheel under the poop deck.This design was so good almost everyone copied the design into their ships. AHHHHH HA! That was the missing piece of information I needed - thanks Cap'n Blackmoor! Quote
Captain Blackmoor Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 AHHHHH HA! That was the missing piece of information I needed - thanks Cap'n Blackmoor! You're welcome Mr. Phes! Quote
Admiral Bejaune Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 (edited) Most definitely on the quarter deck. The Sang Royale's wheel is just in front of the where the poop decks starts. Edited January 31, 2009 by HMS243 Quote
El Bucanero Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 But according to popular culture the wheel is nearly always situated on the poop deck. Come to think of it, I wonder why that is, actually. Most definitely on the quarter deck. The Sang Royale's wheel is just in front of the where the poop decks starts.*snip* I'm seriously going to die if I keep seeing pictures of that beautiful ship.. It's so wonderful!! Quote
Captain Zuloo Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 But according to popular culture the wheel is nearly always situated on the poop deck. Come to think of it, I wonder why that is, actually.I'm seriously going to die if I keep seeing pictures of that beautiful ship.. It's so wonderful!! Good question Mister Tiber. Because almost all toy pirate ships have the helm on the poop deck. However looking at an historical point of view, I'm quite certain that the helm would not have been located on the poop deck, but on the quarter deck. The reason for that being that the poop deck on british ships was often closed off to the normal crew, only officers being allowed on it. And as members of the pressed or volunteered crew would steer... I hope that helps. And damn that's a nice ship HMS243! Quote
Eurobricks Emperor Bonaparte Posted February 1, 2009 Author Eurobricks Emperor Posted February 1, 2009 Having investigated this a bit more, I too think the wheel should be on the quarter deck or just under the poop deck (for 2 decker from between 1750-1815). Reason being extra protection during battle. If it was on the poop deck it would be much more exposed to enemy fire. Also the cables would have to be a lot longer and by consequence would be easier to damage during battle. Good to see another picture of that nice French ship of yours HMS. It's so sad it will soon be on the bottom of the ocean when it meets my English ship-of-the-line Quote
Zorro Posted February 1, 2009 Posted February 1, 2009 For those that want to know or see more of the real Batavia, click here for a virtual tour! I agree with Bonaparte about not putting it on the poop deck because of the longer cables and fewer protection it would offer, but then again we cannot ignore history. Good to see another picture of that nice French ship of yours HMS. It's so sad it will soon be on the bottom of the ocean when it meets my English ship-of-the-line Can someone (Sire Jipay?) please change this traître à l'Empire's name into Lord Nelson or Duke of Wellington please ? Quote
El Bucanero Posted February 1, 2009 Posted February 1, 2009 Good question Mister Tiber. Because almost all toy pirate ships have the helm on the poop deck. However looking at an historical point of view, I'm quite certain that the helm would not have been located on the poop deck, but on the quarter deck. The reason for that being that the poop deck on british ships was often closed off to the normal crew, only officers being allowed on it. And as members of the pressed or volunteered crew would steer... That's an interesting and realistic point of view, but what I actually was wondering, is why the helm in popular culture, is always situated on the poop deck. I don't really see why a toy ship with the helm on the poop deck would sell any better than an historically more correct ship with the helm on the quarterdeck. Quote
Patriot720 Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 I see your point Mr Tiber; and adding the helm to the poop deck certainly adds more playability to toy ships because otherwise the poop deck would have basically no purpose.. Quote
Captain Blackmoor Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 I see your point Mr Tiber; and adding the helm to the poop deck certainly adds more playability to toy ships because otherwise the poop deck would have basically no purpose.. I have to agree with that. The poop deck could be used to store small cannons but a steering wheel gives much more playability to the ship. And if the steering wheel was located on the quarter deck in Lego ships it would be very cramped and difficult to put minifigs behind it. Quote
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