Alternatives to PF?

[SteamSewnEmpire]

So, I priced out what it would cost to build my 0-10-2, and the 3 PF L-motors, 2 battery packs and IR receiver would be well north of $100. That's... a bit of a non-starter as far as I'm concerned (and clearly a result of continuing high demand after PF's phasing out). So... what's the alternative? I've read in multiple places that PU is more than a bit of a performance letdown... and I don't think the price is all that much lower. Is that my only option? Have there been any rumbles from Lego about rolling out yet another power system in the next year or so (in which case I would just wait on that)?

Edited March 13, 2021 by SteamSewnEmpire

[Amoreternum]

I don't think there's a real alternative performance-wise. There are a lot of PF-compatible knock-offs (even of the buggy motor) but I doubt those are an option for you and I would be surprised if there's anything with useful quality. You could try to find a cheap 42095 in a sale, I got one for me at the last Prime Day on Amazon for 40 Euros, which is not a bad deal for two L motors, an IR receiver and some not so useful stuff - regret not getting more. 

Can't say anything about PU performance though - the L motor in the crocodile seems to be doing just fine, but considering the prices on Bricklink, two hubs and three L motors cost about 90 Euros plus shipping. Not that much of a difference.

[*thomas*]

There are 'non-LEGO' alternatives, but it's up to you if you want to go that route and/or support that businessmodel. 

[dtomsen]

My own experience with the BlueBrixx PF L-motors have been great so far. 

They seem the same quality-wise as their LEGO counterparts with slightly more rpm, same torque and more current hungry. A bit vulnerable to overvoltage though. I'm trying to get them tested by Philo but overall they seem much better value for money as is. 

They are in all likelihood made by CaDa, so if BlueBrixx is out if the question due to shipping costs or other reasons, maybe look in that direction.

YouTube "reviews" in German of some of the alternatives: one and two.

With LEGO having retired PF already, they only ones you are not supporting are the price gougers in the second-hand market 

 

Edited March 13, 2021 by dtomsen

[Black Knight]

The data I've seen so far indicates that there is no significant performance difference between PU and PF. You can find a lot of third party PF components because it is legal now to manufacture and sell them since TLG's patent expired. My guess would be that PU primarily exists to make the TLG system incompatible with 3rd party products, but you could argue that the Mindstorms-style features that PU brings to the table are worth the incompatibility.

For trains I think the PU system brings the Bluetooth connection as improvement, but makes the power plug worse (less bricky and incompatible). On the high-end side of things you can go for the Buwizz: A rechargeable lithium battery box with PF connectors that also has Bluetooth; advantage over PU is it's ecologically superior (no more batteries) and brings more performance (higher possible voltage). On the downside it is pretty expensive, though in the long run you will break even with TLG's battery costs.

The other alternative are Bluebrixx, CADA and Mould King: They all have a similar (though not identical) system based on integrated rechargeable batteries (NiMH afaik) combined with a RF remote. They are rather cheap and use a PF connector, so you can use the cheap PF compatible motors. You cannot control them with your cell phone but you also don't need to perform pairing, just to switch channel. The Bluebrixx one is probably the best for trains as it will keep the selected speed, the others will drop to 0 if you let go of the controls. They are also one brick less in height than the PU or PF box from TLG.

All three offer standard medium, large and xl motors with a PF connector, from Bluebrixx you can also get a train motor.

If you are in for the most reasonable priced system, get a Bluebrixx battery box (15 EUR), remote (15 EUR) and train motor (10 EUR). You get a rechargeable, compact system for 40 EUR which imho is a fair price. Maybe the Mould King or CADA systems are a better catch outside the EU though.

If even that is too pricey, you may aim for the KAZI system: They afaik have a train motor and a battery box without remote -- all controls are on the battery box-- which might be even cheaper.

[1963maniac]

 Circuit cubes are all bluetooth so an IR receiver is not needed and the battery cube is rechargeable.

Edited March 13, 2021 by 1963maniac

[zephyr1934]

  On 3/13/2021 at 6:14 AM, SteamSewnEmpire said:

So, I priced out what it would cost to build my 0-10-2, and the 3 PF L-motors, 2 battery packs and IR receiver would be well north of $100. That's... a bit of a non-starter as far as I'm concerned (and clearly a result of continuing high demand after PF's phasing out). So... what's the alternative? I've read in multiple places that PU is more than a bit of a performance letdown... and I don't think the price is all that much lower. Is that my only option? Have there been any rumbles from Lego about rolling out yet another power system in the next year or so (in which case I would just wait on that)?

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You need a patron. I bet there is someone out there who would pay 2x (or more) for the locomotive. So if you did not mind building two copies of the locomotive you could get yours for free. BMR, BrickTrainDepot, BT and Brickmania have all shown that there is a market for $700-$1500 steam locomotives.

[SteamSewnEmpire]

  On 3/13/2021 at 3:47 PM, zephyr1934 said:

You need a patron. I bet there is someone out there who would pay 2x (or more) for the locomotive. So if you did not mind building two copies of the locomotive you could get yours for free. BMR, BrickTrainDepot, BT and Brickmania have all shown that there is a market for $700-$1500 steam locomotives.

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My parents say the same thing. I do often wonder about opening some kind of boutique internet shop where I do one-offs and people pay for exclusivity (like, this locomotive is 2-of-a-kind, and I own the only other). The problem, of course, is the overhead required to get rolling.

[Toastie]

  On 3/13/2021 at 4:45 PM, SteamSewnEmpire said:

I do often wonder about opening some kind of boutique internet shop where I do one-offs and people pay for exclusivity

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I think this is a different (but important of course) aspect. Finance.

You were asking for alternatives to powering systems though, as far as I understood. Also regarding your investment. 

When comparing PF with PUp I believe motor power etc. (physical things) are certainly important. But there is more to it. PF is/was a dedicated 1:1 controller/receiver "pair". With all the limitations of IR and available channels. But a dedicated 1:1 pair is exactly that. Kind of hardwired. You always know what is going on. When your train behaves erratically, some other PF controller is interfering - or you lost line of sight. That's it.

PUp though is a very different "model". There is the smart device (cell/pad/...) + App (= client). There is one of the "hubs" (=server). Client and server have brains (= firmware, memory, app) that negotiate was works and what does not, depending on the hardware hooked up. A PUp train motor is "dumb" - and just reacts to "set power". Other PUp motors are smart and may do something else, like keeping axle rpms constant.

All I am saying is: Don't just look at the power/plugs ... price.

PF "replacements"? Go China. Over and out. As others have said.

Best
Thorsten

[zephyr1934]

  On 3/13/2021 at 4:45 PM, SteamSewnEmpire said:

My parents say the same thing. I do often wonder about opening some kind of boutique internet shop where I do one-offs and people pay for exclusivity (like, this locomotive is 2-of-a-kind, and I own the only other). The problem, of course, is the overhead required to get rolling.

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Nonsense. You just need someone with enough faith in you to give you an advance on the build at an accurate estimate of the parts cost for the two engines. They pay first, potentially supplement with final costs paid before shipping (or better, charge a little more than 2x at the start so you have a cushion for overruns). With cash in hand you can order all of the parts (including expensive PF if necessary) and you just need a building space. You can get fancy and even work with OKBrickworks for custom stickers. Your work looks like it is more of a "word of mouth" type venture, i.e., no need for much on-line presence. All you would need is to add something like, "if interested in purchasing this model in real bricks send me a PM" to one of your posts. This gives you a very low risk entry- no one sends you a PM, you spent nothing. You get a job, you already know it will not cost you anything out of pocket.

The one challenge that will take some trial and error is estimating what the additional shipping costs will be if you have to order from 10 different BL sellers including a couple of international ones. But maybe you also have a retainer of $200 for all shipping costs.

However, (1) it will make your designs more difficult since you will be constrained to the limited color palette of available bricks. (2) It will take up a lot of your time and your hobby will shift from building digital versions of what you are interested to acquisition and physical building of a lot fewer models (most of the money I "earn" from making rods is really me not spending money on Lego because all my hobby time is taken up managing the store). But it could also work out that instead of 2x it turns into 5x with three of those being strictly profit. I'd start with 2x to see if you like it, if that works, next time you get a 2x supplement it to build 3x and sell the 3rd on ebay for the same price, giving you $ for the time you put in.

[Phil B]

Just an additional and repeat warning: it hardly ever happens that a digital build translates directly to a real-life working build without (often significant) modifications. It takes skill to build impressive digital models, but it takes even more skill to then turn them into working engines. There are alignment issues, strength issues, part availability issues, etc. that you will need to resolve that will drive up your cost significantly and require lots of time. You will need to budget for this.

[Daedalus304]

  On 3/14/2021 at 4:44 PM, Phil B said:

Just an additional and repeat warning: it hardly ever happens that a digital build translates directly to a real-life working build without (often significant) modifications. It takes skill to build impressive digital models, but it takes even more skill to then turn them into working engines. There are alignment issues, strength issues, part availability issues, etc. that you will need to resolve that will drive up your cost significantly and require lots of time. You will need to budget for this.

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Right, and getting the drivers and trucks and all of that to navigate track properly can be a very difficult task (Especially once pushing/pulling forces come into the mix) in ways that you really just need physical experience with. Not to mention development of solid, well braced gear trains. It's easy to be sure it'll work, and then, under some load.... Click, click, click - the gears are slipping.

Unless someone's looking to just sell static models, you need to at the very least test build the mechanics of it before going and taking someone's money for it. Some problems are solved easily - some problems take huge amounts of rework, some of which may have impacts on how the rest of the model is designed or detailed.

Running reliability is maybe the most important thing. The Emerald Night had a couple minor and easily fixed issues, but it really was not a bad engine, especially for $145 (factoring in PF). Despite that, to hear the community talk about it, you'd think it was basically un-runable. People who pay $800+ for a locomotive model do so with the expectations that it's going to work, and work well. It's not just the cost of physical materials that people are paying for, it's the experience and reliability in the development. 

I've seen a lot of train models sold and bought happily that are relatively light on the fine details. Other models where the proportions are off a bit. Even still, most everyone who buys those is happy with doing so because despite the visual simplicity, the engine just runs well and they don't have to worry about it.

I'm not trying to tell anybody not to look into doing stuff like this, by the way. If you think you can or want to try, absolutely give it a shot. Just be sure that, at whatever you decide to charge, $300, $500, $800+, you definitely need to have the experience to be sure that they're not going to feel ripped off by their purchase. Customers talk, especially unhappy ones - if none of them get something that works, there won't be many.

[SD100]

  On 3/14/2021 at 6:08 PM, Daedalus304 said:

...and then, under some load.... Click, click, click - the gears are slipping.

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And then you're pulling out every type of gear and bushing lego has ever made trying to get the clicking to stop, you fix it, and now it clicks in reverse and jams... Finally tighten the drivetrain up enough so there's no issues there, and when you turn the power on the motor blows out the side of the loco... But it looked so good on the computer!

I think it's like the rest of the hobby in general though, figure out one model that you really want, and then it may take some time to put the money and then pieces together to build it. It took me about six months to buy the pieces and assemble one 7-wide steamer. I'd place one 20-30 dollar bricklink order every couple weeks. And once an engine is done, then you need cars or coaches to put behind it...

SD

[SteamSewnEmpire]

  On 3/14/2021 at 6:08 PM, Daedalus304 said:

Customers talk, especially unhappy ones - if none of them get something that works, there won't be many.

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  On 3/14/2021 at 4:44 PM, Phil B said:

Just an additional and repeat warning: it hardly ever happens that a digital build translates directly to a real-life working build without (often significant) modifications. It takes skill to build impressive digital models, but it takes even more skill to then turn them into working engines. There are alignment issues, strength issues, part availability issues, etc. that you will need to resolve that will drive up your cost significantly and require lots of time. You will need to budget for this.

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  On 3/14/2021 at 7:20 PM, SD100 said:

And then you're pulling out every type of gear and bushing lego has ever made trying to get the clicking to stop, you fix it, and now it clicks in reverse and jams... Finally tighten the drivetrain up enough so there's no issues there, and when you turn the power on the motor blows out the side of the loco... But it looked so good on the computer!

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Okay, I really think we're kind of carpet bombing a notion here that I had very little intent on following through on. Like I said - my parents had suggested it. It's not something I really want to do. Frankly, I don't much like parting out things on Bricklink, and I detest the physical building process of Lego - it makes my hands hurt and my mind go numb. After about an hour or so, all I want to do is walk away. 

To be honest, there's a big part of me that sees no purpose in powering any model at all. I'm not going to suddenly wake up and become a social butterfly who wants to join one of these clubs where I might theoretically run the thing (I cannot even imagine going to a train show and standing around for hours surrounded by screaming children), and I'm not going to have the space to lay out even a simple loop of track in an apartment. The likelihood of me ever doing anything more than making a built locomotive's wheel's spin while I hold it is pretty close to zero. 

However, the idea that I would build and ship a product to someone for north of 1k without even testing it is... severely incorrect. I don't know what kind of person you're accustomed to associating with, but the scam has never been my modus operandi. 

Edited March 15, 2021 by SteamSewnEmpire

[SD100]

Sounds like sticking to digital IS the (cheap, space saving) alternative you've been asking for...

SD

[SteamSewnEmpire]

  On 3/15/2021 at 1:39 AM, SD100 said:

Sounds like sticking to digital IS the (cheap, space saving) alternative you've been asking for...

SD

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Yeah. Okay. I'm throwing you on ignore. I can hit up the teenagers loitering outside the library if I want to solicit sarcasm.

Edited March 15, 2021 by SteamSewnEmpire

[zephyr1934]

All of the comments about the difficulty of building steam engines are spot on (and to go a step further, best to start with an 0-6-0 for your first steam build). That is why I said patron rather than a buyer, someone who does not mind sponsoring the development process and is not looking for the cheapest alternative. There are a few of them out there (no, I don't know where to find them). That is also totally cool that you don't want to go down that path, it is a bunch of work. Every time I build a Lego set I am amazed at how easy it is, no pulling parts, no placing bricklink orders. Everything you need comes in this one box.