Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey 42113 Petition

[Cumulonimbus]

2 hours ago, Doug72 said:

See this Lego bad/good news release for Osprey 42113 set. (link deleted)

What a strange decision TLG made ... again. It's a very confusing message they are giving: "We made this great set, but due to our core values it set will not be available on the market, except when it is". They effectively made the 42113 a limited edition now (with an unknown series size) and we all know what happens to those, think 41999. At least some dedicated fans will have a bigger chance of getting their copy, but it will cost them a ludicrous amount of money. My guess: expect to pay 5 to 10 time the retail price. Not a proper way to treat your customers and fan base if you ask me.

Edited July 24, 2020 by Cumulonimbus

[TeamThrifty]

The situation is very simple as i see it.. despite the complexity in some posts - If one group shouts loudest and gets something banned, but the reasonable none-shouty 'other' side keeps quiet, then the truth is lost.

Its unreasonable for the offended-snowflake-minority to 'win'. We should all sigh the petition, even if we think it shouldn't be released. This about defending TLG's freedom to operate reasonably and fairly, which they are, and the shouty-minority shouldn't be allowed to dictate their actions. Lego does no harm. Are they raging against Kalashnikov? I find their motives and choice of target highly suspect. 

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

[Bartybum]

16 minutes ago, TeamThrifty said:

We should all sigh the petition, even if we think it shouldn't be released. This about defending TLG's freedom to operate reasonably and fairly, which they are, and the shouty-minority shouldn't be allowed to dictate their actions.

You seem to conveniently forget that TLG willingly chose to cancel it themselves - nobody forced them to do anything. TLG had every right to ignore the group and go full steam ahead. It's so dishonest to act as if a group exercising their freedom of speech is somehow an attack on freedom.

[TeamThrifty]

15 minutes ago, Bartybum said:

It's so dishonest to act as if a group exercising their freedom of speech is somehow an attack on freedom.

I agree, but thats not what i'm saying... Freedom of speech is different to thinking an opposing view shouldn't be allowed. Both sides should be allowed. We should defend TLG's right to release it. But we should also defend the groups right to express their view. 

If there was harm to be done, like they were releasing a working gun, or something racist, then of course it should be stopped. But its not, and somehow a pressure group has derailed the release. TLG didn't want the bad press associated with release, thats not the same as them having the freedom to decide...

In the UK there's been examples of pressure groups stopping xmas lights because asian communities might be offended. Madness. I'm not offended by their celebrations, and as it turns out, the asian community weren't offended by xmas lights... what happened was a group of (white middle class generation Z) snowflakes decided that they would be offended on their behalf... it concerns me that baseless arguments are derailing that freedom on both sides.

We have the right to be offended, and we have the right to offend!! Being offended is part of freedom of speech... as long as its not Hate or abuse or racism, because that not acceptable (don't think i'm saying it is...)

[Bartybum]

10 hours ago, TeamThrifty said:

But its not,

You may view it as harmless, but someone could equally view it as contributing to the normalization of military play by a company that has traditionally tried to avoid that (via a direct explicit license with an arguably shitty company). If the last fifty billion threads about 42113 haven't been indication enough, the cancellation was not exactly a black and white issue.

10 hours ago, TeamThrifty said:

and somehow a pressure group has derailed the release. TLG didn't want the bad press associated with release, thats not the same as them having the freedom to decide...

It absolutely is a free choice. There was no guarantee that it'd be bad press for them.

Edited July 24, 2020 by Bartybum

[R0Sch]

Not trying to defend the Peace Society here (as I also wanted the set), but they themselves were very surprised of the decision TLG made and did not want 42113 to be cancelled after the set was already announced, produced and shipped. According to their statement they tried repeatedly to warn LEGO from beginning of this year since the Nürnberg Toy Fair without any reply. The only request they had now was to stop collaboration with warfare manufacturers IN FUTURE, as they felt it was the wrong direction in which LEGO was heading with this first time licensed modern military aircraft.

It is naiv to think that one group tipped the scales so quickly so you should be angry at TLG cause they thought they could fool the public into thinking a few stickers on the Osprey V22 would make it a rescue plane and nobody would notice. And now instead of staying true to their word, select retailers will still be able to sell limited amounts and make the scalpers happy and us fans even more disappointed.

[mpj]

9 minutes ago, R0Sch said:

Not trying to defend the Peace Society here (as I also wanted the set), but they themselves were very surprised of the decision TLG made and did not want 42113 to be cancelled after the set was already announced, produced and shipped. According to their statement they tried repeatedly to warn LEGO from beginning of this year since the Nürnberg Toy Fair without any reply. The only request they had now was to stop collaboration with warfare manufacturers IN FUTURE, as they felt it was the wrong direction in which LEGO was heading with this first time licensed modern military aircraft.

It is naiv to think that one group tipped the scales so quickly so you should be angry at TLG cause they thought they could fool the public into thinking a few stickers on the Osprey V22 would make it a rescue plane and nobody would notice. And now instead of staying true to their word, select retailers will still be able to sell limited amounts and make the scalpers happy and us fans even more disappointed.

In this point of view, TLG decision sounds too drastic and non-sense. 

I think that if they ignored the message since the beginning (Nurnberg Toy Fair) because they were conscious that with some stickers they had solved the problem, they should have ignored it also now, so it is very strange they changed their mind just 10 days before release. 

[nerdsforprez]

I am not sure if this is the correct place to post this; there have been several threads that address the cancellation of this set.  Perhaps my post even needs its own thread.  I dunno. 

But I felt I needed to express my thoughts.  I am severely disappointed by the cancellation of the set.  So much so that my opinion of buying solely TLG brand is changing. 

There are sins relating to being too aggressive.  Bullying, taking advantage of others, dishonesty, racial, gender prejudice, etc. and these certainly need to rallied against.  It is great that as a society there is so much effort to decrease these.  It is wonderful that as a society we are taking such great strides to avoid offending others and not being insensitive to all the differences the human condition presents.   

However, there are also sins associated with being to passive.  Not aggressive enough.  Being too easily pushed aside, too easily offended, too fragile and oppressed.  This seems to be something missing from the current dialogue; something that the new movement of social justice is missing.  And I think it is just as important as the sins discussed in the paragraph above. 

In the context of TLG and other companies, we often discuss the sins of copying, plagiarism, infringement, etc.  These are super bad.  But TLG, IMO, now just committed another sin I feel perhaps just as bad.  Kowtowing to some unknown group for concerns of offending them when it obviously defies all logic (several examples presented by others) (and.... are they even Lego fans?) all while letting down their fan-base.   This is, IMO just as bad, and at least for me needs to be added to the conversation.  When companies get so large that they make mistakes like this I start to look elsewhere. 

So, for the first time ever, and I know this probably either goes against EB policy or near to it, but I am going to say it anyway, I am considering looking to take my business elsewhere.  Lepin, etc.  Yes, fully aware this is bad.  Fully aware of the copy-cats, and the inherent problems with such companies.  But I am now presented with the dilemma that if TLG is going to commit sins that fall into my fourth paragraph (my perception), is that really all that much worse?  To put it succinctly; there are sins of offending others.  Plagiarism seems to fall into that camp for me.  Essentially you are copying someone elses work.  That is very low.  But, at least for me, I am not sure what TLG has just done, denying me and other loyal fans of a great set for some unknown reason (we can speculate all day what that reason might be - social justice, etc. - who knows) is really any better.  The copy-cat-ers are in the wrong for what they do; but now TLG is in the wrong as well - and I am not sure one group is better than the other and when one costs so much less - well.... I have to think about this. 

I will end with just reiterating I am ashamed with TLG.  I seriously might be taking my business elsewhere...

 

[Ngoc Nguyen]

23 minutes ago, nerdsforprez said:

Kowtowing to some unknown group for concerns of offending them when it obviously defies all logic

They didn't kowtow to that group. There was sign that the set was postpone before that group publicly expressed disapproval. The reviewers was sent 42112 and 42114, but not 42113.

[nerdsforprez]

Group or groups.  Same difference to me.  I think the concern of offense in general or defying their own policies is the issue.  Which, at first glance is not bad - right?  Good for them for sticking to their guns.  Right?

Problem is.... it made it this far and then was canceled.  TLG kowtowed to someone. Internally or externally.  Same difference to me if in the name of social justice or concern of offending some unknown group or groups. 

 

[damian_kane_iv]

On 7/24/2020 at 8:02 AM, Bartybum said:

You seem to conveniently forget that TLG willingly chose to cancel it themselves - nobody forced them to do anything. TLG had every right to ignore the group and go full steam ahead. It's so dishonest to act as if a group exercising their freedom of speech is somehow an attack on freedom.

Theres a difference between de facto freedom and de jure freedom; a lot of people see this as an attack on the de facto freedoms. Some see having the freedom to escape from politics as just as important as the freedom to engage in them. Plus it's reasonable to assume there's a fair bit of emotion going around following the cancellation of this set, so I'd chalk all the "freedom infringement" talk to emotionally-charged rhetoric.  

Again, the point is protesting LEGOs decision, which we're within our rights to do as well. That might take the form of words- this forum, the petition- or it may take the form of looking to competitors to fulfill market demand for depictions of real-world vehicles and mechanisms made from LEGO-compatible plastic elements. I personally don't care for the set; maybe the grey technic panels but that's about it for me. My gripe is that no company should feel justified in treating its customers like this. Staying silent and letting little moments like this pass only lets LEGO off the hook and leaves them feeling justified in doing this again. In effect, all they've done is confuse a fair amount of consumers while also creating a market for the few authentic sets where price gouging is sure to be the norm. It's bad business and just plain disrespectful. 

[MangaNOID]

9 hours ago, nerdsforprez said:

TLG is going to commit sins

What sins? Your perceived 4th paragraph ones?

Myself I can’t see a sin, I see a mistake by the company and at great cost to them tried to fix it according to their modus operandi. 

9 hours ago, nerdsforprez said:

But now TLG is in the wrong as well 

it’s a mistake and they fixed it. That shouldn’t really upset people who don’t follow their MO, it should be understood and respected. It’s TLG MO and they (eventually) stuck to it.

TLG are only in the wrong by people spitting a dummy because  they can’t get something they want.

Your post sounds like trying to find an excuse to buy other products (Do you really need an excuse) But that’s my perception of your post and we are all entitled to our own perceptions.

 

 

 

 

[Bartybum]

1 hour ago, damian_kane_iv said:

Some see having the freedom to escape from politics as just as important as the freedom to engage in them.

Lego aren’t removing themselves from politics/matters though.

By the very nature of having a no-military policy they are actively taking a stance.

[nerdsforprez]

14 hours ago, MangaNOID said:

 

Myself I can’t see a sin, I see a mistake by the company and at great cost to them tried to fix it according to their modus operandi. 

it’s a mistake and they fixed it. That shouldn’t really upset people who don’t follow their MO, it should be understood and respected. It’s TLG MO and they (eventually) stuck to it.

 

 

 

 

 

I wish I saw it this way.  But I don't think it was some accidental mistake.  Surely not the "ooops we didn't see that coming" kind.  As pointed out by @Ngoc Nguyen there was quite a bit of internal debate and qualms about this set.  Also, you know how these things operate.  Corporations such as TLG don't make millions dollar decisions without multiple board room meetings, etc.  The decision to put the set into production was done decisively, with weighing the pros and cons. 

Ultimately though, and thanks to groups like those that filed the complaint, the social outcry was too much.  If a mistake was made, it was not regarding following one's MO, it was underestimating the social outcry and TLG lack of ability to stand up to such outcry.  Therein lies the problem.  Again, I don't see this as following their MO; if that were the case then the set should not have gone in production in the first place.  No, they responded to public backlash - public backlash from (at least one known group) that really have no affiliation with Lego at all (not known fan group).  I actually think it is a huge disservice to articulate this as "following one's MO".  I don't see it happening as such at all. 

As has been shown by multiple others - if TLG is following some MO then we would not have jets, etc. and many other military-themed sets. 

14 hours ago, MangaNOID said:

Your post sounds like trying to find an excuse to buy other products (Do you really need an excuse) 

I respect this.  Though incorrect.  I can see how you see it this way. 

The only reason why anyone has to try and find an excuse in doing anything is if there is some shame.  Which, supporting companies that steal other's work is certainly something to be ashamed about.  However, you are demonstrating my point by bringing this up.  I am wondering if there is equal shame in supporting a company that caves to social pressure - even after a product is already produced - AT THE EXPENSE of loyal fans and customers.  Companies exist for customers, not social policies or movements.  And mind you, this really is not a military set. Not at all.  I can't see that argument at all. 

One has to pick their poison I suppose.  And honestly, I am not sure the poison of supporting plagiarism is any worse than supporting policies and behavior that is not based on any sound rationale, but because of threats and finger-wagging from others.  

[Bublehead]

The whole "Non-military" based toy argument from TLG went out the door when they licensed Star Wars (IMHO) a title that has "WARS" in the name, yet TLG doesn't want to promote military or any "killing" based imagery?!?!

This is about how much bad press you are going to recieve from some insignificant "Peace" organization balanced against the amount of lost revenue they expect for not releasing the set.  Lego won't embrace "guns" or weapons of violence unless there a part of greedy mass potential market that is poised and ripe for the plucking.

Nobody is standing in lines waiting to purchase TLG's next Techinic models, and we have to realize that the majority of TLG business is themed/licenced sets tied into major franchises.  Star Wars (AKA Disney) is a big juicy franchise and so "blasters" and "Laser rifles" and fictional killing machines of the future are fair game, but God help them (and us) if they release a set based on a real vehicle/machine used to protect and serve the great nation that designed and built it.

If there ever was any clearer representation of a company that "folded" on their belief systems for the love the almighty dollar/euro/pound, this is got to be the one that takes the cake.

Peace loving Lego, please... That boat sailed years ago.

[Ngoc Nguyen]

18 minutes ago, Bublehead said:

Nobody is standing in lines waiting to purchase TLG's next Techinic models, and we have to realize that the majority of TLG business is themed/licenced sets tied into major franchises.  Star Wars (AKA Disney) is a big juicy franchise and so "blasters" and "Laser rifles" and fictional killing machines of the future are fair game, but God help them (and us) if they release a set based on a real vehicle/machine used to protect and serve the great nation that designed and built it.

Very well said! I love this part.