[HELP] How to start with Mindstorms?

[xp10r3r]

Hi guys,

maybe not the right forum, feel free to move the topic. As I illustrated in the topic I was wondering how to start with Mindstorms. Should I buy some education sets? Should I start somewhere else? I think it's always a question what to achive. Personally, I'd like to create a fully automated warehouse. I know it's a big step and that's why I try to start small which leads me to my former question: How to best start with Mindstorms?

Cheers

[BusterHaus]

Hi @xp10r3r, if you are new to robotics and programming, I suggest getting the retail version of Mindstorms and building/programming all the official models.  It will get you familiar with programming concepts, the visual Mindstorms programming environment and "language", as well as with some simple mechanisms.  The retail version is easier to follow than the education version if you don't have a teacher.

Programming takes time to learn, and it may be boring to just look at one concept at a time, but you won't find a better way of learning.  A lot of the concepts build on each other, so as tempting as it is to skip simpler ones, you are better off following the steps set out in the official Mindstorms models.  One other important note: you will not learn programming in a few sittings.  It takes time, so your plan of building an automated warehouse will be on hold for a while.  As you learn different functions and concepts, you can note how they can be applied to a future build.

[Jim]

1 hour ago, BusterHaus said:

One other important note: you will not learn programming in a few sittings.  It takes time, so your plan of building an automated warehouse will be on hold for a while.  As you learn different functions and concepts, you can note how they can be applied to a future build.

This sums it up pretty much.

Get yourself a retail EV3 set, like @Busterhaus said and embark on the journey. We are planning to do monthly challenges/mini contests, so there will be enough to do and learn.

By the way; the education version does have the rechargeable battery, which is quite convenient. And a nice box to store your stuff. Something to take into consideration.

I have added this topic to the index.

[Toastie]

1 hour ago, Jim said:

Get yourself a retail EV3 set, like @Busterhaus said and embark on the journey.

I agree - but would like to extend that.

When being "new" to micro controller programming (this is - IMHO - what Mindstorms is about) - all Mindstorms sets will do. EV3, sure, but this is a fully fledged high powered system with all whistles and bells. An RCX (sells for < $30 new(!) at BrickLink) is much less powerful, but much more so "intuitive". Nevertheless an RCX features 3 sensor inputs, 3 actuator outputs, and a whole lot of intelligence. And there are other LEGO platforms as well. The Scout. And for sure the NXT. Get any of them - and dive deep!!!

And I believe this is also the reason why the Arduino, ARM, microchip and other micro controller folks are so excited about Jim's forum ideas.   

All the best,
Thorsten 

[Larry Andersen]

17 hours ago, Toastie said:

An RCX (sells for < $30 new(!) at BrickLink) is much less powerful, but much more so "intuitive". Nevertheless an RCX features 3 sensor inputs, 3 actuator outputs, and a whole lot of intelligence.

I have to agree with this point.  The RCX is a very inexpensive entry point into the Lego method of programming.  The price for one on Bricklink can run as low as 12US$.

[xp10r3r]

Thx guys for your feedback so far.

I'll make up my mind and try to find the right point to enter.

Cheers

[Jim]

1 hour ago, xp10r3r said:

Thx guys for your feedback so far.

I'll make up my mind and try to find the right point to enter.

Cheers

You are more than welcome. I do have a question for you; do you have any programming experience? Do you want to do actual programming or do you want use a graphical environment like the EV3-G?

[xp10r3r]

18 hours ago, Jim said:

You are more than welcome. I do have a question for you; do you have any programming experience? Do you want to do actual programming or do you want use a graphical environment like the EV3-G?

This's what I really enjoy at this place, it makes you feel very welcome especially for a bloody amateur like me 

I do, not that much, but I'm experienced in ABAP for business purpose and currently learning C for education purpose at university. I'm interested in both actual and graphical programming. I never used a graphical environment before, but why not?

Generally, I think I'll start with NXT 2.0, not sure about 1.0, but maybe as well. I found this article. It describes the difference between several NXT sets quite keen. Maybe something for the forums index?

Cheers

[moggy001]

I was going to suggest the NXT over the RCX, mainly because the software for it is more readily available and it interfaces more easily with modern computers. Yes, it is somewhat more pricey than a RCX but it is still pretty cheap and I think that extra cost would be worthwhile.

[Jim]

On 10/18/2018 at 2:37 PM, xp10r3r said:

This's what I really enjoy at this place, it makes you feel very welcome especially for a bloody amateur like me 

I do, not that much, but I'm experienced in ABAP for business purpose and currently learning C for education purpose at university. I'm interested in both actual and graphical programming. I never used a graphical environment before, but why not?

Generally, I think I'll start with NXT 2.0, not sure about 1.0, but maybe as well. I found this article. It describes the difference between several NXT sets quite keen. Maybe something for the forums index?

Cheers

Graphical enviroments tend to be limiting. Admittedly, you can do a LOT with the graphical environment used by Mindstorms, but when it comes to bigger programs, it's more convenient to use RobotC or leJos or ev3dev or something. I want to start topics on all of these environments to share my experience. For most of them, I am a noob myself, so we all need to help each other 

[xp10r3r]

1 hour ago, Jim said:

Graphical enviroments tend to be limiting. Admittedly, you can do a LOT with the graphical environment used by Mindstorms, but when it comes to bigger programs, it's more convenient to use RobotC or leJos or ev3dev or something. I want to start topics on all of these environments to share my experience. For most of them, I am a noob myself, so we all need to help each other 

What could you recommend as the best IDE from your experience so far? Is it RobotC? I already read about RobotC, but also saw a lot of other useful tools. I think starting topics for most of them we all could benefit from.

By the way: Do you think it is possible to control a warehouse like Hanso showed only controlled by EV3?

Cheers

[Jim]

RobotC is a very robust programming language. For me it has one impediment and that is the lack of daisy chaining support. leJos is also a long time friend of Mindstorms. I need to check it out. leJos needs to be installed on a separate memory card, while RobotC requires updating the brick with a custom firmware. After that you won't be able to use EV3-G anymore.

It all depends on what you consider a "fully automated warehouse", but I do think this can be acquired using EV3-G.

I would love to see you make a list of requirements, so we can judge your project. And it will be easier for you to break down the work in testable units. For example:

• Move arm (x and y axis)
• Move arm to unit x, y
• Grab a container from ... ? (truck, assembly line, ..?)
• Grab a container from a storage unit
• Store container in storage unit x, y
• ...

To me these are some basic tasks you need to accomplish. But do you consider this to be a "fully automated warehouse"? Can you create a complete list of tasks/requirements for your project?

[BusterHaus]

1 hour ago, Jim said:

while RobotC requires updating the brick with a custom firmware. After that you won't be able to use EV3-G anymore.

Can you flash the original firmware back on the intelligent brick?  I know Mindstormer uses a custom firmware that I replaced with the original once I was done with the project.

[Jim]

39 minutes ago, BusterHaus said:

Can you flash the original firmware back on the intelligent brick?  I know Mindstormer uses a custom firmware that I replaced with the original once I was done with the project.

Yes, you can always restore the original firmware  

[Toastie]

Well, here we go again

Graphical or not: With the NXT LEGO software (NXT-G) I ran quickly into limitations - caused by TLG's >graphical editor capabilities< (and >not< by the programming features of NXT-G!) but you can do many things with NXT-G, e.g., using "TLG endorsed" 3rd party sensors, which are fully supported by NXT-G - but suck sh** using other programming environments. Man, it was so easy to use the IR-Link sensor from HiTechnic/TLG within NXT-G - and it was a pain in the butt to do so within other software. Actually, I installed NXT-G solely for that purpose.

I "grew up" with NQC for the RCX and NXC for the NXT. I then I bought RobotC to go beyond the original firmware limitations. The thing is that the RCX and NXT bricks don't run RobotC programs without flashing custom brick firmware.

My choice is always "stay as close as possible" to TLG software. Which translates to NQC and NXC. And they come for free! For me beyond that is always RobotC. It comes for free for the RCX - but you have to pay for other platforms.

And once again: The RCX is a very cool, dead cheap, fully supported (use the NQC/BricxCC as programming environment for nada) platform.

Best wishes and happy programming,
Thorsten 

22 hours ago, moggy001 said:

I was going to suggest the NXT over the RCX, mainly because the software for it is more readily available and it interfaces more easily with modern computers. Yes, it is somewhat more pricey than a RCX but it is still pretty cheap and I think that extra cost would be worthwhile.

I fully agree!

But: NQC/BricxCC runs without any slips on Win10/64bit when paying attention to the com port used for serial IR tower communication: Use a USB -> RS232 converter ($5 / Amazon), get the LEGO RS232 serial IR tower ($3 / BrickLink), set the COM port for the converter <= 8 - and there you go.

Guess I have assembled a recipe for running all that "old stuff" on modern computers buried in the Mindstorms forum.

Best,
Thorsten  

[xp10r3r]

On 10/19/2018 at 4:17 PM, Jim said:

I would love to see you make a list of requirements, so we can judge your project.

Well, that's definitely a hard job to do 

But your're right. I need to make up my mind what I'd like to achive. Basically, it should be a fully automated warehouse at the end, but think big and start small.

Let's start with the storing process of a container.

1. Assembly line
   1. (Scan a container with barcode at workstation)
   2. Move a container from workstation to assembly point (Assembly line/warehouse connection point)
2. Storage unit
   1. Move a container from assembly point to appropriate storage unit
   2. Store a container in storage unit
   3. Move arm back from storage unit to assembly point
3. Repeat from 1.

Grabing process of a container

1. Storage unit
   1. Choose a container (eg by number at workstation)
   2. Move arm from assembly point to appropriate storage unit
   3. Grab a container from storage unit
   4. Move a container from storage unit to assembly point
2. Assembly line
   1. Move a container from assembly point to workstation
   2. (Scan a container with barcode at workstation)
3. Repeat from 1.

I'm also thinking about a rearranging algorithm, ie I'd like to rearrange all container in the meanwhile whenever the arm is idle. The sorting sequence should be the frequency of container use. Let me explain it more in detail.

Whenever the arm is idle do the following.

1. Determine storage unit with minimum distance to assembly point and not storing a container with highest frequency of use
2. Move arm from assembly point to determined storage unit
3. Grab a container from storage unit
4. Move a container from storage unit to temporary storage unit
5. Store a container in temporary storage
6. Determine a container with highest frequency of use and not in storage unit with minimum distance to assembly point
7. Move arm from temporary storage unit to determined storage unit
8. Grab a container from storage unit
9. Move a container from determined storage unit to storage unit with minimum distance to assembly point
10. Move arm from assembly point to temporary storage unit
11. Grab a container from temporary storage unit
12. Move a container from temporary storage unit to storage unit with former container with highest frequency of use
13. Move arm back from former storage unit to assembly point

It's not that effective I guess. I only wanted to show that there's some kind of rearranging process possible. Of course, the rearrange should be interrupted at any time once there's a storing or grabbing process scheduled.

It's a rough idea of mine of a fully automated warehouse. I'd love to get some feedback, if you want to.

Cheers

[Jim]

Perfect! That’s what I’m talking about. Nice work summing up the requirements. Now you can start thinking about the design.

I would love to see you do this with an EV3 unit, so we can help/test more easily.