Requesting historical references

[QuartermasterRobert]

I am so glad I found this board. It seems that everyone is not only just a LEGO pirate fan, but many of them are big time history buffs (I myself am both as well)! And so I come to you with a request!

I need references for Arabic Royalty and Arabic sailing, from the 1600s until around 1740. I search and I search and it is impossible for me to find any good visual reference for either costumes OR for ships! Commoner and Royalty costumes are desired, but if you can only provide one or the other that's ok. Also, references for lifestyle, culture, palace designs, ect, are also all welcome. This will all be used in the story me and my girlfriend are writing (one portion involves a fictional Arabic country, and we'd like things to be as accurate as possible).

Also, the REAL big need is I also need designs for an Arabic "battleship" from the early 1730s, or whatever it is that they would call a "battleship". Actually, any Arabic ship references would be welcome as well. I thank any and all who can contribute!

[SlyOwl]

I'm not sure if you want Lego references or real ones, but I would suggest using the Orient Expedition line for all your Arabian needs. Here's Babloo:

Hope this helps! *sweet*

[Lord Of Pies]

Hmm, well I know that Dhows, Arab sailing vessels were used during the Medieval ages, but I am not sure they used them right up until 1700's.

Here is a picture:

[Capn Frank]

The Berber people lived in northern africa and made xebecs.

They also fought the U.S. around 1798.

P

[QuartermasterRobert]

I'm not sure if you want Lego references or real ones, but I would suggest using the Orient Expedition line for all your Arabian needs. Here's Babloo:

Hope this helps! *sweet*

Babloo is a cool figurine, but isn't he Indian/Hindi? Although I am sure I can scrape something together from him...

I should have been slightly more specific. I need SOUTH Arabian ships X-D Namely, those from the modern day Yemen area: http://go.hrw.com/atlas/norm_map/yemen.gif

[snefroe]

I am so glad I found this board. It seems that everyone is not only just a LEGO pirate fan, but many of them are big time history buffs (I myself am both as well)! And so I come to you with a request!

I need references for Arabic Royalty and Arabic sailing, from the 1600s until around 1740. I search and I search and it is impossible for me to find any good visual reference for either costumes OR for ships! Commoner and Royalty costumes are desired, but if you can only provide one or the other that's ok. Also, references for lifestyle, culture, palace designs, ect, are also all welcome. This will all be used in the story me and my girlfriend are writing (one portion involves a fictional Arabic country, and we'd like things to be as accurate as possible).

Also, the REAL big need is I also need designs for an Arabic "battleship" from the early 1730s, or whatever it is that they would call a "battleship". Actually, any Arabic ship references would be welcome as well. I thank any and all who can contribute!

well, i remember this vaguely from my history teachings, (yeah... i'm an historian, and yeah... we actually learned about this stuff, unfortunately i forgot most of this...) but i don't think the Arabs had these classic battleships... they didn't need them because they didn't need to sail the oceans, nor did they have the knoledge to build battleships the way the West did. It was in fact one of the reasons why the West conquered the world, instead of anybody else... this and this is a kind of ship they used for practically everything....

[QuartermasterRobert]

well, i remember this vaguely from my history teachings, (yeah... i'm an historian, and yeah... we actually learned about this stuff, unfortunately i forgot most of this...) but i don't think the Arabs had these classic battleships... they didn't need them because they didn't need to sail the oceans, nor did they have the knoledge to build battleships the way the West did. It was in fact one of the reasons why the West conquered the world, instead of anybody else... this and this is a kind of ship they used for practically everything....

I would assume that was the case for most of Arabia, but my previous post indicated that I am in search of South Arabian ships. And I KNOW that there was SOME South Arabian pirates...

[SlyOwl]

Babloo is a cool figurine, but isn't he Indian/Hindi? Although I am sure I can scrape something together from him...

He is, but I would have thought his dress is similar to standard Arabian attire. The same would go for the scimitars and cloth from Elephant Caravan, IMHO... X-D

[QuartermasterRobert]

He is, but I would have thought his dress is similar to standard Arabian attire. The same would go for the scimitars and cloth from Elephant Caravan, IMHO... X-D

Yeah, the scitmitars I know will be useful for what I need X-D

[Tanotrooper]

the army on the land didn't change much over the centuries, as during the Napoleonc wars, some were lucky to even have muskets. Most were armed with swords and arrows

Thats why they can be conquered so easily on Cossacks II: Napoleonic wars X-D (I suggest it)

TT

[QuartermasterRobert]

the army on the land didn't change much over the centuries, as during the Napoleonc wars, some were lucky to even have muskets. Most were armed with swords and arrows

Thats why they can be conquered so easily on Cossacks II: Napoleonic wars X-D (I suggest it)

TT

Are you sure? Because the Ottomans were among the first to really get a grasp on blackpowder. Great Bombards, anyone?

[Mister Phes]

It's a pity Col. Whipstick isn't here because he's a great resource of historical information. I'm not sure when he's returning to us but I don't think it's in the near future.

[QuartermasterRobert]

It's a pity Col. Whipstick isn't here because he's a great resource of historical information. I'm not sure when he's returning to us but I don't think it's in the near future.

Did something happen to him? X-O

[oo7]

well, i remember this vaguely from my history teachings, (yeah... i'm an historian, and yeah... we actually learned about this stuff, unfortunately i forgot most of this...) but i don't think the Arabs had these classic battleships... they didn't need them because they didn't need to sail the oceans, nor did they have the knoledge to build battleships the way the West did. It was in fact one of the reasons why the West conquered the world, instead of anybody else... this and this is a kind of ship they used for practically everything....

I'm going to have to agree with Count Sneffy on this, from what I know the Islamic empire of Arabia wasn't very warlike when in its golden ages. It seems there was a huge trade industry being situated on a peninsula surrounded by four bodies of water and many were skilled sailors, but I don't think there was much of a modern navy. Plus, there was absolutely no "separation of church and state" in this region and therefore Muslim religious leaders, such as caliphs and sultans, would govern society with the use of religious texts, most notably the Sharia and Qu'ran.

The Ottomans, on the other hand, had many modern fleets and a more European style government. I imagine this was mostly due to their location further west of Arabia and their Roman-Byzantine heritage. For the list of Turkish Ottoman political leaders, see this Wikipedia article.

Edited March 6, 2008 by oo7

[QuartermasterRobert]

I'm going to have to agree with Count Sneffy on this, from what I know the Islamic empire of Arabia wasn't very warlike when in its golden ages. It seems there was a huge trade industry being situated on a peninsula surrounded by four bodies of water and many were skilled sailors, but I don't think there was much of a modern navy. Plus, there was absolutely no "separation of church and state" in this region and therefore Muslim religious leaders, such as caliphs and sultans, would govern society with the use of religious texts, most notably the Sharia and Qu'ran.

The Ottomans, on the other hand, had many modern fleets and a more European style government. I imagine this was mostly due to their location further west of Arabia and their Roman-Byzantine heritage. For the list of Turkish Ottoman political leaders, see this Wikipedia article.

Ahhh, I see then. Do you happen to have any Ottoman ship references?

[oo7]

Sure! Do you happen to fancy any of these?

[Capn Frank]

Ahhh, I see then. Do you happen to have any Ottoman ship references?

Then it would be galleys you are probably looking for.

oo7 has already posted pics of some galleys.

Here's the wiki link.

Here's a pic of a Venetian Galley.

Another point of interest would be the knights of malta *y*

I've been reading about them since you've started the topic. X-D

Here's the wiki link.

They fought the turks and other islamic countries in the area for centuries.

P

[QuartermasterRobert]

Sure! Do you happen to fancy any of these?

Holy crap that's AWESOME. Do you have a legend for which ship is called and does what? Also, I REALLY need reference for what would be an Ottoman "battleship", or whatever they would have used for their naval flasgships. Like a middle eastern equivilent of a war-equipped Spanish Galleon.

Also, does anyone have good culture and society references from the 1600-1700s for the Ottomans/Arabs? I need good visual reference for cities, palaces, and costumes for all social classes.

[Mister Phes]

Sure! Do you happen to fancy any of these?

This nabataea.net website looks quite useful. Someone please index it.

[oo7]

Holy crap that's AWESOME. Do you have a legend for which ship is called and does what? Also, I REALLY need reference for what would be an Ottoman "battleship", or whatever they would have used for their naval flasgships. Like a middle eastern equivilent of a war-equipped Spanish Galleon.

Also, does anyone have good culture and society references from the 1600-1700s for the Ottomans/Arabs? I need good visual reference for cities, palaces, and costumes for all social classes.

Wow, I'm glad some of those did indeed strike your fancy and pleased to be of service. X-D Well, the website I took the image from (Which Mr. Phes pointed out there) didn't have much of a caption unfortunately, but I think the ship classification is easy enough to research on its own. There's definitely a good share of Galleys and Galleasses in there like Mr. Phred explained along with some Dhow and Xebec type vessels mixed in. The last two seem to be of a galleon type design, probably Caramusal type Caravel type thing. 8-|

Anyway, any and all of those there are the battleships, I believe. Wikipedia tells me that the Battle of Zonchio (also known as the Battle of Sapienza or the First Battle of Lepanto) was the first battle in which naval cannons were used. It was fought between the Ottoman Empire and the Republic of Venice, and the Ottomon flagship, "G

Edited March 7, 2008 by oo7

[QuartermasterRobert]

Wow, I'm glad some of those did indeed struck your fancy and pleased to be of service. X-D Well, the website I took the image from (Which Mr. Phes pointed out there) didn't have much of a caption unfortunately, but I think the ship classification is easy enough to research on its own. There's definitely a good share of Galleys and Galleasses in there like Mr. Phred explained along with some Dhow and Xebec type vessels mixed in. The last two seem to be of a galleon type design, probably Caramusal type Caravel type thing. 8-|

Anyway, any and all of those there are the battleships, I believe. Wikipedia tells me that the Battle of Zonchio (also known as the Battle of Sapienza or the First Battle of Lepanto) was the first battle in which naval cannons were used. It was fought between the Ottoman Empire and the Republic of Venice, and the Ottomon flagship, "G

[oo7]

Thanks alot, oo7, you are a God-send! Although I am slightly dissapointed that the Ottoman flagship there looks like just a Galleon with... oars. Why oars, anyway?

I thank you very much for your gratitude, but I told you the Ottoman culture was much more similar to that of Europe as compared to Arabian culture, didn't I? ;-) That's why they adopted the galleon design, only they also used the oars so they would continue on course even if the winds weren't favorable, I guess.

About those royal costumes, I recommend trying that Wikipedia hyperlink I posted initially and scrolling down to the "Imperial Heads of the House of Osmon" list -

The Ottomans, on the other hand, had many modern fleets and a more European style government. I imagine this was mostly due to their location further west of Arabia and their Roman-Byzantine heritage. For the list of Turkish Ottoman political leaders, see this Wikipedia article.

[QuartermasterRobert]

I thank you very much for your gratitude, but I told you the Ottoman culture was much more similar to that of Europe as compared to Arabian culture, didn't I? ;-) That's why they adopted the galleon design, only they also used the oars so they would continue on course even if the winds weren't favorable, I guess.

About those royal costumes, I recommend trying that Wikipedia hyperlink I posted initially and scrolling down to the "Imperial Heads of the House of Osmon" list -

Ah, duh. I stupid X-D Forgot about that! Seeing these costumes is a major releif for me! I'm sure my girlfriend will be happy too to see these references.

Now, you wouldn't happen to have good images on buildings, palaces, and architecture would you? X-D

[oo7]

Um...yeah. Wikipedia's Istanbul article has generous plethora of elaborate imagery. :-P

I suggest you especially note the Topkapı Palace, Hagia Sophia, and the Sultan Ahmed Mosque.

Anything else? :-D

[QuartermasterRobert]

Um...yeah. Wikipedia's Istanbul article has generous plethora of elaborate imagery. :-P

I suggest you especially note the Topkapı Palace, Hagia Sophia, and the Sultan Ahmed Mosque.

Anything else? :-D

Those are nice, but I fear they may be too "northern" for what I need. The story my girlfriend and I are writing involves a fictional Arabic-Ottoman cross kingdom, and while the Ottoman designs work well for ships and costume, I was hoping for a more Arabian appearence in architecture and whatnot. Also, there is the ordeal of anachronisms, I'm not sure which buildings would have looked like what during the 1600-1700s. I hope you understand, because you've been a BIG help with all this.