Are the Imperial Armada really all just Spanish?

[Col. Whipstick]

Was up half the night doing these bitmap renderings of Imperial Armada minifigs using MS Paint... Will work on trying to do the entire lego pirate caste in good time.

Anyway... Obviously the conquistador style of the Imperial Armada and the Hispanic looking facial features has always made us look at them quite simply as Spanish though Lego have simply been content to give the figures a generically Iberian identity.

This being the case it's really not hard to identify them as either Spanish or Portuguese but I have some reason to challenge the Iberian status quo. Perhaps because we've always identified the Imperials as British and French we've never felt the need to consider the armada figures as northern european and clearly the armada figures belong to the early 'golden age' period of discovery and colonialism whereas the more Napoleanic design of the Imperials belongs to the more established colonial days. Even the rival association created by lego suggests this... Note how the main rival to the Imperials are the Pirates as by this stage piracy is well established and a rather freelance enterprise unlike the state endorsed privateer business it had been earlier. Now the main rival to the Armada figures seems to be the Islanders which emphasises that given their appearance Europeans are new on the scene. So effectively we have Armada figures from around the 15th/16th centuries whilst the Imperials are to be considered more in keeping with the 17th/18th centuries.

Right, we all know the Spanish and the Portugese had a fair jump on Britain, France and Holland in the New World as much as the African and Pacific colonies but can we assume the Armada minifigs are just Portuguese and Spanish... Remember that the English and note I say English, not British were making explorations and forming colonies from the early 1600's. The 'John Smith' types wore clothing belonging to Elizabethan England and as such metal helmets and breastplates are not uncommon. I have a feeling the Dutch had a similar look for the time but don't recall French forces in this style though I could be wrong on both accounts. I just wanted to throw the floor open to debate on what folks really think of the Armada minifigs.

Edited November 6, 2007 by Col. Whipstick

[Mister Phes]

The LEGO Group seems to base it's mini-figures on stereotypes which are easily identifiable. I.e. you take one look at the mini-figure and you can usually tell which nationality, theme, genre, etc. it's supposed to represent/belong to.

The LEGO Group incorporated stereotypical Hispanic facial features into the Imperial Armada mini-figures and adorned them with stereotypical Spanish armament like morions and cuirasses which are usually associated with Conquistadors.

It seems rather confusing as to why they'd do this if they wanted to depict a different nationality.

Also the very name "Imperial Armada" suggest they're Spanish because Armada is a Spanish word. Obviously it's been adopted into the English language and could refer to a navy from another nationality but Spanish and Armada are rather synonymous. Being something else would only add to the confusion of the sub-theme's identity.

[Col. Whipstick]

I wasn't debating what Lego's intentions were...

That's kinda why I made the point of mentioning the generically Iberian look. I was simply opening up the suggestion that the overall look and design of the figures could in my opinion be used to depict English or Dutch forces during the Elizabethan era.

It's never been in doubt that first and foremost they are Spanish but I like to stretch ideas, hence why I presented the argument... :-P

[Mister Phes]

I don't really get the argument though.

Well yes they could be used to depict English or Dutch forces during the Elizabethan era. It's LEGO. Just like you can make any mini-figure represent whatever you please.

I don't think I'm doing this right...

[woody64]

Now seeing the picture I do understand your question.

If we are dealing with normal troops to my point of view they can be of any nation.

Soldiers were often mercenary soldiers. Often complete contigents were hired. They also often switched side in this time. Sometimes captured soldiers had the choice to fight with the enemy or to be ....

Also uniforms were not as standardized as in later times. So if you put some lego soldiers on a ship you can give it a spanish or an english flag. Even ships changed side when entered.

Andreas

[Mister Phes]

Remove the above mini-figure's morion and replace it with a hair piece and you'd have a fine looking butler X-D

[Lt. Col. Thok]

Personally, I believe that the Armada is Portuguese. Sure, all the signs point to Spain, but...I have a gut feeling.

[Athos]

To me, everything about them just screams Spanish... from the faces to the clothes...

Steve

[Captain Green Hair]

[Col. Whipstick]

[Mister Phes]

Thank you! My point exactly, by the way that was a really cool movie.

I've had that movie on DVD for months but haven't got round to watching it. That's something I can do this weekend since I'll have university wrapped out! YAAAAAAAY!!!

This is what I wanted to see, some stirring of the pot. To me it's interesting that the armada figs are in green and red, it could be used to depict seperate nations, portugal from spain if need be.

Well since you put it like that I can see where you're headed...

The fact that blue features quite a bit points to Portugal as politically they are more represented by white and blue then with the flags and insignia rather than the red and green thing that has only come up in the last 100 years of Portugal's history.

Since this is a debate and like being the protagonist I shall oppose the proposition! Time to do some research... Drat! Don't have time right now.

[Lt. Col. Thok]

I've had that movie on DVD for months but haven't got round to watching it. That's something I can do this weekend since I'll have university wrapped out! YAAAAAAAY!!!

Lolz, Phes goes to university....

Anyways, the green makes me think of Portugal. My 2 cents.

[El Bucanero]

Ah but that's simple...

Take Mr Lower Right Corner's torso, Mr Lower Left Corner's head and you have... me, a Dutchman! :-)

Okay, seriously, the morions remind me of the conquistadors, wich would be either Spanish or Portugese (?)

Remove the morion, and they could be either noblemen or traders. In my opinion that is.

Morion on

[Col. Whipstick]

I've had that movie on DVD for months but haven't got round to watching it. That's something I can do this weekend since I'll have university wrapped out! YAAAAAAAY!!!

Well since you put it like that I can see where you're headed...

Since this is a debate and like being the protagonist I shall oppose the proposition! Time to do some research... Drat! Don't have time right now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_portugal

Read up on the history of the flag there, the green and red we all associate with Portugal is pretty recent, the last hundred years or so out of Portugal's respectable 1000 year independent history. The green has been associated strongly to the Republican movement whereas the prodominantly white background has it's usual bearings in vexilology to the church and catholicism.

Likewise the Cross of Burgundy flag starts off with a predominantly white background and it's during the reign of Philip II that the Spanish bring in the yellow we recognise them for.

Typically I tend to think of the Spanish as yellow and the Portuguese as green but our mindsets are determined a lot by modern visualizations. The Dutch could never be anything other than Orange though a few Catholic ones about might feel less enthusiastic about that. The French are blue, the English and later British are red. If I have to map the colonial territory of the main powers of the age that's pretty much how I associate them.

[Mister Phes]

Lolz, Phes goes to university....

Heh? What's so funny about that?

Read up on the history of the flag there, the green and red we all associate with Portugal is pretty recent, the last hundred years or so out of Portugal's respectable 1000 year independent history.

Flags you say? What about Coat of Arms?

Here's Spain's

Now here's the coat of arms on the Armada Flagship...

It seems to be strongly influenced by the Spanish Coat of Arms. Now why is this so? Is this not to allude to the Imperial Armada being Spanish or are they merely another nation imitating the Spanish? >:-)

[Col. Whipstick]

I'll see your Spanish Coat of Arms and raise you my Portuguese one... :-P That blue and white sail gives a lot of credance to the Portuguese, not to mention the red and green shirts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_Po...830%29.svg#file

Something a little more British....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:UK_Arms_1837.svg

Again I'd argue it's our prefix of Spain as red and yellow that makes the armada coat of arms so highly spanish, interesting that yours picks up on the white instead of the yellow, like how yellow replaced white in their cross of burgundy. It's those green shirts and blue on the ship and sails that really put a dent in the Spanish assumption though.

[Mister Phes]

The Portuguese flag seems to be meandering too far off course - it looks like an old strategy computer game in compassion to Armada Flagship sail X-D

[Captain Green Hair]

The Spanish and british coat both seem to fit the TLC version... very interesting.

The Portugese one only has 2 sides, but does have blue in it......

I think this still doesn't clear things, but do you guys really think they would have those blue stripes on their sails?

[Col. Whipstick]

The Spanish and british coat both seem to fit the TLC version... very interesting.

The Portugese one only has 2 sides, but does have blue in it......

I think this still doesn't clear things, but do you guys really think they would have those blue stripes on their sails?

Of course they didn't have the blue stripes but as far as Lego are concerned they now do much to the annoyance of the Spanish enthusiasts :-P

The fact of the matter is that as all of Europe and in particular Western Europe has countless centuries of complex heraldic symbols and flags owing to regional and national formulations, pacts, marriages etc there isn't a single coat of arms that isn't related to another and this only further steals the Spanish thunder. All it comes down to is obviously first and foremost we should consider the armada Spanish but that there's easily enough visual evidence about them to have them as other western europeans. And before people go on about the power of imagination unless you need a cat scan you won't be saying the islanders look similar to ninjas. We all know imagination goes a long way but with the armada it doesn't have to go too far to be something other than Spanish. ;-)

[Mister Phes]

Ok Mr Smarty Whipstick...

If the Imperial Armada are a nationality other than Spanish then what would the Spanish look like in LEGO form? X-D

[Col. Whipstick]

Ok Mr Smarty Whipstick...

If the Imperial Armada are a nationality other than Spanish then what would the Spanish look like in LEGO form? X-D

Give me some time and I'll see if I can come up with some designs that obviously won't deviate too much from the Armada but give them an absolutely Spanish edge... as sharp as that piece of Toledo steel you're waving about. You've already poked Evil Willy's eye out! :-P

[Mister Phes]

Most excellent! I would like to see some mini-figure designs with "an absolutely Spanish edge".

[Col. Whipstick]

Okay, without spending the rest of my life designing heaps of new minifigs and to emphasize a subtle change in the Armada forces here's what I did last night to try emphasize totally Spanish forces. I feel it would be hard to consider these guys Portuguese, Dutch, English etc. I apologise in advance for the one corner of the coat of arms not bearing the stripes of Aragon, problems saving an updated version.

Ultimately I wish there were a few more pieces made by TLC, in particular headwear. I've been looking at the whole pirate setting in general and thought it would be nice if they had molded those short peaked hats that you tend to see puritans wear, this would be great for British marines and also for the governors and viceroys etc of the colonies, if someone can find the name for these let me know, usually there was a buckle around at the top and a short feature plum sticking out of a crest at the side. Anyway I designed what one would look like for the Spanish viceroy type figure. Additionally missionaries, particularly Catholic ones have never been developed and I feel it's a figure that would look really cool so I've designed a somewhat Jesuit looking figure, useful for depicting Spanish or Portuguese missionaries, some variation would be required for other nations. I also felt it a bit of travesty there's no shiny metalic helmets, black looks good but doesn't feel historically right for me. The other big thing that we are missing in this range is wigs! I wish TLC had made a piece that was a long white curly design to put on figures so we can bring aristocrats to the colonies.

[Mister Phes]

Oh dear...

Aside from the torso with the Coat of Arms I don't see how these are any more Spanish then the official Imperial Armada mini-figures.

The one in the lower right corner looks Amish...

[Col. Whipstick]

Perhaps reading the length of the post first might explain a thing or two... I made it clear I wasn't designing whole new figures, merely tailoring the current Armada designs to make them feel more Spanish and frankly I'm satisfied that I've done that. :-P

As for the comment about Amish... I think that is pretty much just a tad on the slanderish side and more than a little unfair. I maintain the figure is applicable even if maybe the hat should be reduced to a cap and would happily have it in my sets and if you want further justification watch some movies like 'The Mission' with Robert De Niro

Also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bartolomedelascasas.jpg

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h...%3D10%26hl%3Den

Edited November 8, 2007 by Col. Whipstick