Your Dream Pirate Sub-Theme

[Mister Phes]

Yes, indeed we are dreaming but I'm starting to fear we might be steering away from "Pirates" and into history in general.

In my opinion The American Revolution would work better as a Western sub-theme rather than Pirates.

It looks like a classic smile face, only really blurry. :-P

I thought it was a Malfoy or something...

[Scouty]

Naw, it's a smiley face, Mister Phes.

But the Revolution certainly shouldn't be in western, that's a bit later in history.

Though, the Revolution would be steering away from pirates, maybe some of these other oness would be too 8-| .

[oo7]

Western subtheme? Perhaps you are confusing The American Revolution with The American Civil War. This is The American Revolution -

Edit - So is this, by the way. ;-)

Edited October 17, 2007 by oo7

[Scouty]

That's actually not apart of the American Revolution, because the Battle of Lexington was just a millitia battle with the British and not the Continental Army with the British.

[Mister Phes]

Western subtheme? Perhaps you are confusing The American Revolution with The American Civil War. This is The American Revolution

To elaborate upon what I meant... Just because they're wearing similiar uniforms to those depicted in the original Pirate theme doesn't mean they'd made a suitable sub-theme. Perhaps The American Revolution would be better off as a theme to itself.

When I think of LEGO Pirates I think of the Buccaneer, I.e. a Pirate opearting in the Caribbean and Bahamas circa 16th and 17th centuries. If I was designing a pirate sub-theme I'd keep that time period and locale, but since it's a fictional universe I wouldn't enforce 100% historically accuracy - just so long as the thematic was related to pirates without stretching the boundries too far.

[Scouty]

When I think of LEGO Pirates I think of the Buccaneer, I.e. a Pirate opearting in the Caribbean and Bahamas circa 16th and 17th centuries. If I was designing a pirate sub-theme I'd keep that time period and locale, but since it's a fictional universe I wouldn't enforce 100% historically accuracy - just so long as the thematic was related to pirates without stretching the boundries too far.

I'm thinking of the same general area as well. But I would extend it to very early 18th century. I'm not 100% sure, though.

[Mister Phes]

But why would you want to?

[oo7]

That's actually not apart of the American Revolution, because the Battle of Lexington was just a millitia battle with the British and not the Continental Army with the British.

I regret I'm going to have to beg to differ from you, Commander Scouts. The Battles of Lexington and Concord were the first military engagements of the American Revolutionary War fought on April 19, 1775. You see, the declaration came a couple months afterwards, officially declaring The Thirteen United States of America as a free and independent nation, not declaring war on The British Crown. ;-)

To elaborate upon what I meant... Just because they're wearing similiar uniforms to those depicted in the original Pirate theme doesn't mean they'd made a suitable sub-theme. Perhaps The American Revolution would be better off as a theme to itself.

Yes, definitely a separate theme! However, the similarities include more than just uniforms. A Boston Tea Party set (of my dreams) would need absolutely no modifications whatsoever to be turned into proper Imperial harbor.

When I think of LEGO Pirates I think of the Buccaneer, I.e. a Pirate opearting in the Caribbean and Bahamas circa 16th and 17th centuries. If I was designing a pirate sub-theme I'd keep that time period and locale, but since it's a fictional universe I wouldn't enforce 100% historically accuracy - just so long as the thematic was related to pirates without stretching the boundries too far.

That would be a traditional pirate setting, yes. Although I think more exotic ones could be interesting (In my dreams, mind you :-P ). What do you think of Chinese pirates, those infamous Spanish pirates, or even those musical Pirates from Penzance, Mr. Phes? ;-)

But I would extend it to very early 18th century. I'm not 100% sure, though.

I agree wholeheartedly, Commander! :-)

But why would you want to?

I'd say because a lot of historical pirates lived in this era! Here's what Wikipedia says on the matter;

The Golden Age of Piracy occurred mostly in the Caribbean, the American coast, the Indian Ocean, and the western coast of Africa. During the early 18th century, many European and colonial American sailors and privateers found themselves unemployed. Factors contributing to piracy included the rise in quantities of valuable cargoes being shipped to Europe over vast ocean areas, the weakness of European navies in peacetime, the training and experience that many sailors had gained as conscripts in European navies (particularly the Royal Navy), and the weakness of European government in overseas colonies.

Contents

Origins

In 1713, a succession of peace treaties were signed, known as the Treaty of Utrecht, which ended the War of the Spanish Succession (also called 'Queen Anne's War'). With the end of this conflict, thousands of seamen, including Britain's paramilitary privateers, were relieved of military duty. The result was a large number of trained, idle sailors at a time when the cross-Atlantic colonial shipping trade was beginning to boom. In addition, Europeans who had been pushed by unemployment to become sailors and soldiers involved in slaving were often enthusiastic to abandon that profession and turn to pirating, giving pirate captains for many years a constant pool of trained European recruits to be found in west African waters and coasts.

Triangular Trade

Trafficking on shipping lanes between Africa, the Caribbean, and Europe began to soar in the 18th century, a model that was known as triangular trade, and was a rich target for piracy. Trade ships sailed from Europe to the African coast, purchasing slaves. The traders would then sail to the Caribbean to sell the slaves, and return to Europe with goods such as sugar and cocoa. Sugar, rum, and slaves made up the majority of the trade goods.

As part of the war's settlement, Britain obtained the asiento, a Spanish government contract, to supply slaves to Spain's New World colonies, providing British traders and smugglers more access to the traditionally closed Spanish markets in America. This arrangement also contributed heavily to the spread of piracy across the western Atlantic at this time. Shipping to the colonies boomed simultaneously with the flood of skilled mariners after the war. Merchant shippers used the surplus of sailors' labor to drive wages down, cutting corners to maximize their profits, and creating unsavory conditions aboard their vessels. Merchant sailors suffered from mortality rates as high or higher than the slaves being transported (Rediker, 2004). Living conditions were so poor that many sailors began to prefer a freer existence as a pirate. The increased volume of shipping traffic also could sustain a large body of brigands preying upon it.

Many of the most well known pirates in historical lore originate from this Golden Age of Piracy.

* Stede Bonnet, a rich Barbadian land owner, turned pirate solely in search of adventure. Bonnet captained a 10-gun sloop, famously named the Revenge. Primarily raiding ships off the Virginia coast in 1717, he was caught and hanged for piracy in 1718.

* Edward Teach, more commonly known as Blackbeard, ruled the seas with an iron fist from 1716 to 1718. Blackbeard's most famous ship was the Queen Anne's Revenge, in response to the end of Queen Anne's War. Blackbeard was killed by one of Lieutenant Robert Maynard's crewmen in 1718.

* "Black Sam" Bellamy, captain of the Whydah Gally, sunk in 1717 in a storm.

* Bartholomew Roberts, sometimes called "Black Bart", was one of the most successful and colourful pirates of the day. He was killed off the coast of Africa in 1722.

* William Fly, whose execution in 1726 is used by historian Marcus Rediker to mark the end of the Golden Age of Pirates.

[Mister Phes]

That would be a traditional pirate setting, yes.

I'd say the mainstream "romanticised" perception of pirates rather than traditional...

Although I think more exotic ones could be interesting (In my dreams, mind you :-P ). What do you think of Chinese pirates, those infamous Spanish pirates, or even those musical Pirates from Penzance, Mr. Phes? ;-)

The Spanish integrates perfectly with Pirates of the Caribbean because they had a large presence in the region. The LEGO Group acknowledged this by making their Pirate mini-figures more "Hispanic" in 1996 and 1997, not to mention the Imperial Armada sub-theme which sadly went nowhere.

As for Chinese pirates. Given the nature of the existing SYSTEM Pirate theme (upon which the idea of this thread is to invent new sub-themes) I'd say Chinese pirates would be too foreign because they'd seem closer to the Ninja theme - or once again maybe they'd be better suited to a theme of their own.

If the LEGO Group were to announce "There will be a new Pirate theme in 2009 and the pirates will be Chinese" to me that would be more like an entirely new theme with little correlation to the existing Pirate theme other than the fact the sets are supposed to be pirate related.

Anyway, I presume future Pirate themes will have little or nothing to do with our beloved SYSTEM Pirate theme, so blah!

[Scouty]

I regret I'm going to have to beg to differ from you, Commander Scouts. The Battles of Lexington and Concord were the first military engagements of the American Revolutionary War fought on April 19, 1775. You see, the declaration came a couple months afterwards, officially declaring The Thirteen United States of America as a free and independent nation, not declaring war on The British Crown. ;-)

I know that. Anyway, my mistake X-D . Though, the Battles of Lexington and Concord made the Continental Congress to see whether they should finally stay loyal to the crown or declare independence. But you're own information is wrong *wacko* . The Declaration of Independence and the decision for independence only occured a year later, and then a coople of months.

And no need to call me Commander Scouts outside of the TA Thread :-D .

I hope we've cleared this out, and get relatively back on topic. Though, the American Revolution (sub-)theme would be a bad idea because the main target audience is America. Maybe if it were the Colonies with British soldiers stampering over them X-D .

Anyway, I presume future Pirate themes will have little or nothing to do with our beloved SYSTEM Pirate theme, so blah!

I hope it'll be similar, :-) .

[Mister Phes]

I'd say because a lot of historical pirates lived in this era!

Admittedly when I wrote "16th and 17th" centuries in my earlier post I screwed up. I meant between 1600-1750, or the 17th and 18th centuries.

The 16th century is a bit early for pirates but great for conquistadors!

[Col. Whipstick]

Mr Phez

What face is the green soldier showing? Just the normal standard lego face, why?

The American Revolution is on the money timewise though it has little in the way of piracy it's all about the Napoleanic Era and as we go into the European battlefields of the time it's only right we should consider North America in the same light.

One interesting thought for me is the idea of how The War of 1812 actually suits the red and blue imperials as we have them... we tend to associate these as British/French but they could be applicable as Royal Canadian Troops versus the US Continental Army. :-)

One of the major reasons I suggested Southern Africa is that there's a fair bit of both elements but now... has anyone thought what Ze Germans would look like prior to WWI - no pointy helmets allowed!

[Mister Phes]

Mr Phez

What face is the green soldier showing? Just the normal standard lego face, why?

Errr... I'm not sure why you've used the normal standard LEGO face - you tell me why? X-D

Or did you mean why did I ask? In which case I suppose I was curious and that's about it.

One of the major reasons I suggested Southern Africa is that there's a fair bit of both elements but now...

What sets would you recommend for a Southern Africa Pirate theme, Colonel?

[Scouty]

Admittedly when I wrote "16th and 17th" centuries in my earlier post I screwed up. I meant between 1600-1750, or the 17th and 18th centuries.

The 16th century is a bit early for pirates but great for conquistadors!

Hmmm, I was thinking that was the thing. I knew 1500's were a bit early for pirates X-D . But we need more Conquistadors :'-) :'-( . They would help Phes and his Armada! I would buy them too, as well!

[Mister Phes]

The Imperial Armada mini-figures seem popular and it's a pity their sub-theme never went anywhere.

[Capn Frank]

Not to pick holes in that theory... But the US versus Great Britain could only be the war of 1812. If you're reffering to the revolution, the US doesn't exist until after 1776, niether for that matter do Americans strictly speaking... And this is a pet peev of mine from that side of the Atlantic - it's not the English... It's the British! Since 1711 Scotland and England with Wales already annexed are merged creating Great Britain. I know it seems complicated but it would be like calling Texans Yankies as a comparison :-P

I was referring to the war of 1812. All the ship to ship combat during the war was pretty much smaller vessels (meaning frigate sized and smaller). Also there were american privateers that raided british merchant vessels.

Maybe even a little before that war when the US was fighting the barbary pirates. Now that would be pretty cool. Having colonist or imperials versus barbary pirates *y*

Barbary Pirates could have the scimitar swords and have xebec ships

sorry about saying english instead of british. i always thought they were synonyms. :-$

About the american revolutionary theme, i also think it'd be mostly land sets and not too many sea faring sets.

P

Edited October 18, 2007 by phred

[Sir Norman Ray]

Hmm, a debate, which involves Britain against Americans, AND I HAVEN'T POSTED?!

Personally, I think a better era would be around the Napoleonic era as thats when Piracy was more famous. Anything involving the British and American;s beating the stuffing out of one enough would only sell well in America, as, well, we lost the first one and the second isn't remembered here that well due to the fact we were stopping the French. Oh, and we didn't loose the 1812 war. And neither did America. We still held the rights to Canada, you had the right to go off and shoot Indians...

If TLG honestly sat down round the desk, with their cigars, large coffee mugs and went "The fans want Pirates." I think they will go more towards the old line, us, as it was the most popular. LEGO Star Wars is only popular really cos it's Star Wars. Oh yeah, they've done wonders with the Theme, but it's Star Wars.

LEGO will go "Lets get back to basics" and give the people what they want. In Glorious yellow minifigs *sweet*

[Col. Whipstick]

I was referring to the war of 1812. All the ship to ship combat during the war was pretty much smaller vessels (meaning frigate sized and smaller). Also there were american privateers that raided british merchant vessels.

Maybe even a little before that war when the US was fighting the barbary pirates. Now that would be pretty cool. Having colonist or imperials versus barbary pirates *y*

Barbary Pirates could have the scimitar swords and have xebec ships

sorry about saying english instead of british. i always thought they were synonyms. :-$

About the american revolutionary theme, i also think it'd be mostly land sets and not too many sea faring sets.

P

The War of 1812 would be interesting... that Imperial Blues could represent US Continental forces and Imperial Reds the Canadians X-D

Yeah, Americans have been using English and British as sinonyms for donkey's years and sold the confusion to the world through Hollywood. Despite being an actual language which likes to make it more complicated English is the ethnic term for those from England but England is only a part of Britain and basically it's okay to say the Indians met the English with the establishment of the Virginian colony but after 1711 pretty much anything internationally you've gotta say British because Great Britain then exists. Unless of course we're dealing inside the British Isles, then English is applicable to things relating specifically to England so please please tell your buddies that the reason it's the Union Jack flag you see in those movies is because that's the British and a lot of those boys wearing redcoats will have Scottish, Welsh and Irish accents X-D

Errr... I'm not sure why you've used the normal standard LEGO face - you tell me why? X-D

Or did you mean why did I ask? In which case I suppose I was curious and that's about it.

What sets would you recommend for a Southern Africa Pirate theme, Colonel?

Mr Phes

Did you read that whole long thing I wrote on Southern Africa on page 2? As it stands the official sets are versatile to anywhere colonially, just a case of making the scenery a little different from the Carribean or Pacific. Imperial Trading Post (which I would really rather call Port Royal) so easily doubles up as Cape Town or Port Natal (now Durban) The dutch build an impressive pentagonal fort there before the British took over shop. It would be interesting if someone could try make an MOC mimicking that fort and call it the Cape Fortress, man it with the men in green. Think of it as a 17th century Pentagon :-P

[Captain Green Hair]

Well they certainly weren't as organised as say the British and French forces in the 18th and 19th centuries but I've read up on a few things suggesting that even the Dutch in the Cape were wearing uniforms.

My first thought if you can get a copy is the Wilbur Smith book - Bird of Prey. English privateers are taken prisoner during the Anglo-Dutch war and held captive in the Cape Fort, in it there are descriptions of green uniforms and Wilbur Smith is pretty veteran in his research. Anyway, that book is actually the prequel to the entire saga involving the Courntey family... If you haven't heard about any of this, it's worth having a look into... Read: Birds of Prey, Monsoon and Blue Horizon in that exact order - covers early colonial africa in some great vividity and then after that the later books go into the days of the British Empire. Yeah history is a bit of a drug for me, I could write some synopsis like this for the other theatres but felt Southern Africa would be suitable as I am British and South African.

here's a good link: www.wilbursmithbooks.com

If you have any enquiries about any history just yell, like to test my knowledge, we can never know too much...

I'll try to read te bird of prey, i love history, only thing that got my attention in school actually....

Thanks for the tip! *y*

So us Dutch were already smart enough to think about camouflage :-D

[Mister Phes]

Well guys to be honest I feel that Southern Africa has such a rich colonial and diverse ethnic history that it could be a good ol' model making bloodbath equal to the Carribean etc. Perhaps this whole theme could be large enough to warrant a thread of it's own? I can supply some historical maps etc to help define the whole idea. What does the big boss downunder say?

I agree completely your idea warrants an entire thread to itself! I must admit aside from the historic time context and time period I'm bambazooled any of those ideas would make sub-themes with the SYSTEM Pirates! X-D

Mr Phes. Did you read that whole long thing I wrote on Southern Africa on page 2?

I skimmed across it but I can't really spend the time to read it thoroughly.

Reading your post I was able to ascertain a name and a reference to it's historic standing - but I was looking for more of a break down how it would translate into LEGO

Which you've kind of done here...

The Dutch base is ofcourse to be named 'The Cape of Good Hope' and resemble Imperial Trading Post with Table Mountain in the background

Or like Athos has done...

Harbor Ferry: small row boat (maybe include the small sail), one merchant figure, a bunch of crates and barrells loaded in the boat, and a shark ($10).

Smuggler's Sloop: small ship, similar to the one in Imperial Trading Post. Comes with two smugglers. ($20).

Smuggler's Cove: Burpy cave, with cargo hidden inside. Cannon to guard the cave. Includes a sail row boat, with two smugglers and a captured guard. ($20)

At the moment I have to be spoon fed information because I'm physically and mentally exhausted from all this work I've been doing lately and I think I'm coming down with some illness..

[Col. Whipstick]

I'll try to read te bird of prey, i love history, only thing that got my attention in school actually....

Thanks for the tip! *y*

So us Dutch were already smart enough to think about camouflage :-D

Green Hair... I have found the novel, I do own a copy myself but downloaded this one just to find something on the green uniforms. This extract from Birds of Prey gives us what we're looking for...

"Merciful God! Hal cried. "Why do not the batteries at the entrance return their fire?"

Then with his naked eye he saw strange soldiers in green uniform overrunning the gun emplacements at the foot of the cliffs, their swords and the steel heads of their pikes flashing in the sunlight as they slaughtered the gunners, and flung their bodies over the parapets into the sea below.

"They have surprised our men in the forts. The Buzzard has led the Dutch to us, and shown them where our guns are placed." His voice trembled with outrage. "He will pay with his blood for this day, I swear it."

My Brickshelf account has some green soldiers to look at but I'd like to have them wear an orange epilet instead of yellow - it would look good with the green and help to emphasise the Dutchness, although some might find them Irish then. lol

http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?m=simplygareth

Oh, and a note on the Cheeseheads - Dutch :D and camoflage... The Afrikaners although not strictly Dutch anymore used browns and greens in their guerilla styled warfare against British troops in the Anglo-Boer wars in South Africa. As effective as the camoflage might have been though they still lost in the long run but as in Holland when the Spanish and French and Germans have invaded the Dutch are formidable at guerilla styled warfare and known for it in history. Sadly in open warfare they usually just get cooked but yes, a real Williamite Dutchy should be good at wearing green and carrying a sniper rifle.

Edited October 18, 2007 by Col. Whipstick

[Col. Whipstick]

Faction: The Dutch

Leader:

Governor Jan van Riebeck - green imperial admiral uniform with an orange feather out of the admiral hat.

Other Characters:

Simon van der Styl - van Riebeck's second in command and eventual replacement.

Some Islander figures to signify the Batavian slaves of the Dutch or the Khoi-San natives of the Cape.

Main Base:

The Cape Of Good Hope - a large pentagonal structure built out of the sandy brick used in egyptian lego with cannons facing out to sea and Table Moutain built behind the model. The base should have green uniformed Imperials with orange epilets and all black Tricorn hats. The Cape Fortress needs to have a prison facility as it is famed for this. This building is now known as the Cape Town Castle. Obviously the fortress needs the Dutch tricolour with the VOC insignia in the central white stripe. A small dockyard extention is needed to extend into Table Bay and should have a small VOC trade ship, similiar to the little ship found with ITP. Obviously the whole thing needs barrels and all the other accessories to accentuate it. Also lots of goblets to signify the abundance of the vineyards and fame of the Cape wines which were started by the Dutch. Also a small garden outside the fort with some tulip styled flowers. :-P

Main Ship:

The Dromedary - a medium sized Basque, similar to the carribean clipper but with plain looking sails on it. At the top of the main mast we should have 3 of the coloured castle flags in sequence of orange, white and blue. The ship shouldn't have uniformed personal as the Dutch aren't known to have had marines so just civilian looking type crew except for Governer Jan van Riebeck who will be in dress. The ship should have only a couple cannons as she's meant for trade and exploration, not your bloodlusty British Frigate types.

Other Sets:

Fort Orange - A base on the Orange River in SA to guard against invaders to the colony. Small fort with rowboat manned by some green imperials and a couple islander figures to symbolise Khoi-San scouts.

New Amsterdam - a larger base with docks but with more civilian traders than troops. This is to symbolise the colony before the British get control and change it to New York. A couple Indian figures from the lego western theme would help to carry this off.

[Col. Whipstick]

Faction: The Portuguese

Leader:

Vasco Da Gama - wearing silver helmet and breastplate of the conquistadors and a red/purple shirt with green trousers to mark the colours of portugal. He should also have a full thick black beard.

Other Characters:

Bartholomew Diaz - the unsuccesful and jealous rival of Vasco because we was unsuccesful in reaching the east so now we pretend that Prince Henry has sent him to work under Da Gama so he 'might learn something' Diaz has no facial hair but a grumpy expression and the men never listen to him.

Father Jual - a Portuguese Catholic Priest sent as a missionary to make sure the Dutch don't convert the natives to the reformed church. Father Jual wears long black robes and a wide brimmed black hat with a white colour - similar to that of the inquisition.

Lorenco Marques - the regional governor of Mozambique while Da Gama tends to stay on board his ship.

Main Base:

Delagoa Bay - a large trading post on the sea with networks across the western Indian Ocean. Delagoa Bay is short of cannons but the conquistador troops are master swordsmen and there are many feudal looking axes etc around the fortress. Lorenco Marques is here with a few men but mostly civilians are about and a small Arab dhow ship with a couple arabs should come with the set to show the islamic trade of the indian ocean. Some barrels could be filled with something that looks like spice to show how successful the route to the east is turning out to be. The fortress should have lots of painted green doors and windows and the small castle flags of green, red and purple.

Main Ship:

The Prince Henry - named after Henry the navigator and sailed by Vasco Da Gama, the crew of the Prince Henry are brave men, not scared of sailing off the edge of the world the way the chicken crew of Diaz was. The Prince Henry should be an old caravel styled ship, very ornate and with big crusader styled crosses across the sails in a green, red and purple pattern. She has only a couple cannon and is mostly for exploration and trade.

Other Bases:

Port Benguela - the main base in the Portugese colony of Angola on the western coast of Southern Africa. The Lego Portugese nobility have left Diaz in command here as a second prize. The Port is used mostly for the slave trade running out of west africa to Brazil. Most the troops should have grumpy faces and the place is overcrowded with lots of fighting.

Rio Christo - a small mission station where Father Jual lives at the mouth of the Amazon river on the coast of Brazil. A small rowboat is ready to take the Father up the river if need be.

[Mister Phes]

Good work on the descriptions Col. Whipstick! It's helped me to visualise how your ideas would work in LEGO form and I can see how they'd work with the existing SYSTEM Pirates theme.

As it stands the official sets are versatile to anywhere colonially, just a case of making the scenery a little different from the Carribean or Pacific. Imperial Trading Post (which I would really rather call Port Royal) so easily doubles up as Cape Town or Port Natal (now Durban)

I understand what you mean now. Much of the same could be said for your ideas - just replace those Arabs with buccaneers and we're back in familiar territory! X-D

[Scouty]

I think Magellan and his main ship, as well as some islanders of the Phillippeans would make a good addition to either the Spanish or Portuguese.