the best moc i ever build

[SirNadroj]

Sir Nadroj-You are usually very good at this from what I've seen. Great job here, too. You found something you liked. Seriously, everybody, it's the worst MOC ever, but finding one thing that is ok and pointing it out is a great way to try to help someone out. Here, Sir Nadroj simply said the use of the dragon wings is clever. That'll make someone feel good: clever! Then with the door open, he made some gentle suggestions, not harsh or patronizing, but friendly. Nice!

Just doin' ma civil duties, sir! :-D

;-)

[Doctor Sinister]

Doctor Sinister-here we have the perfect example of a constructive criticism tool-the positive/negative sandwich. The meat of the critique is delivered between two slices of positive bread! :-D As with a real sandwich, the bread makes the meat easier to swallow. Don't make the meat too big though, because then the bread won't seem to matter...go analogy go!

Gosh, thanks. :-$

Dr. S.

[Hinckley]

To be completely honest, I probably wouldn't reply to his thread.

I know it's a terrible thing to do as there is nothing worse than having a thread with your creation silently dump from first page without any replies.

It is probably because of my bad experience in another LEGO forum where a new guy posted something he made and everybody acted as if he attacked the community (the work looked very childish, but not at all offensive). I asked people to reconsider that he might actually be a very young member (which he was!), but instead I got moderators on my neck.

Now I have the idea that I should always either write some constructive criticism apart from the initial reaction or simply talk about some of the great details if I find everything to be good. To write that kind of response for this kind of creation is hard, so I'm glad you are picking up the topic Hinckley. Thank you.

It is always easier if you know the person behind the MOC, but the Internet tends to take away that little piece of help, and I'm sadly too terrified for hurting others peoples feelings by not treading carefully in my replies. People who know me will know that I use self-irony so much that it's bordering selflessness (where I sometimes even mistake insults as if they were sarcastic), but how are you to know that from what I have posted so far in here?

Edit

Did I go too personal here? Well. It needed to get out.

I don't think it's too personal at all. I think it's a great subject to broach. I don't know what other site you're referring to or what the MOC actually was, but in my experience, Eurobricks is much more friendly than some of the other Forums.

In my opinion, people should be able to post a crappy MOC-if it's honestly their best work-and expect good feedback and friendly replies. I noticed some sites don't get a lot of MOCs posted and I think it's because either people don't respond and/or when they do it is unnecessarily harsh. In my experience, some other sites are ridiculously elitist about whose MOCs they receive well. :-|

New builders bring their creations to a forum because they respect that community and want to be accepted there. We don't have to tell them their sub-par creation is a beauty, but we should be welcoming, I think. Again this is only my opinion, but if you attack a new builder, than you either have insecurity issues or a power complex. We get a lot of new members who say, "I've lurked for a while but wanted to share this creation and see what you think." Who are we to disclude someone?

In the first part of this "exercise" john cleese said "Im afraid this thing is suitable for the official lego gallery but not eurobricks. I dont want to seem harsh but we have certain standards here." to our beloved fartface. No offense john, I think your attitude has improved wonderfully, but I had a big problem with that statement. I personally don't think we necessarily have a higer standard at Eurobricks-and if we do, we shouldn't. I don't think we should demand that only experts post their creations here, no. Every builder, no matter what level they're at, has the right to post here.

What I'm saying is, Lasse D, don't be afraid to post constructive feedback here. In my opinion, the moderators and administrators are pretty welcoming and patient with new members. I would be very surprised if you "stood up" for a new member's crappy MOC and anyone came down on you. I hope you find that, if anything, our members come down on those who are too harsh with new builders.

That is my opinion! :-$

[Hobbes]

Hy my name is fartface! this is my first moc its the best one i build yet. it's a spaceship see? its my ist so go ez on me :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

[image snipped]

its a green spaceship cuz its green but the bike runs it so it wont use fuel and pollute space. it has a tree in there too because its good for the environment. i put a ghost in cuz i thought it be cool if it be haunted

let me know what you think!!!!!!!!!~1

Welcome to EB, hinckley39!

Nice ship, I like the way you found use for that baseplate. I always wondered what else but landscaping you could build with it.

Classic Space minifig - excellent *y*

Nice greeblies (the 1x2 white brick on the 1x4 plate), simple but effective.

Other than that I agree with Asuka...

Enjoy your stay at EB!

[Hinckley]

Hobbes-you're an expert! Great to see you *wub*

[Batbrick]

Batbrick-another great example of the positive/negative sandwich technique! What's great here is that it is short and sweet. You offered one point to work on, which is a good idea considering he already got so many other tips from responses before yours...What I liked about your positive thoughts were they were about his attitude. Even if you don't like the MOC, you can say something nice about the person's creativity or enthusiasm. Great job!

Thanks Hinckley! *sweet* I found Fartface, though admittingly terrible at MOCing, had a great attitude and was a very nice person. Someone like that deserves to stay here :-) . I am liking this sandwich analogy :-P atleast you didn't go with the "Its like clockwork" or "like a good recipe'! :-D

Thanks for this thread, I reckon it has taught a lot of people on how to better react to terrible MOCs, I know I learned something! ;-)

In a little bit, I'll post phase II-fartface goes back to the drawing board and see how well you communicated your tips and how you do if your tip was misinterpreted...

Have fun everybody! *sweet*

Uh-oh! This might be scary, I'd hate to see him try all our tips at once! X-O :-D

TTFN! >:-)

[Lasse D]

Needless to say, I nod approvingly to everything you everything you said Hinckley... to the reply to my post that is ;-)

There is no doubt that this forum has a more friendly atmosphere, especially towards new members than the other one (which I will not mention because that would bring no one any good) and I have no doubt that the administrative staff in here has a more considerate attitude (this doesn't mean less restrictive!).

That said, we should always watch out for elitism and other less desirable attitudes and make people aware of it when spotted because such can often happen without the members being aware of how their responses might be interpreted.

I think EB is the LEGO fan community with the best to administer issues mentioned, which is one of the reasons I have been staying here. The experiences from the other forum will still be haunting, but I believe the constructive criticism from my part should be slowly developing. One day I might actually respond to our good friend fartface and tell him (in a positive way) that he can easily do much better! X-O

[Asuka]

Other than that I agree with Asuka...

:-P

Of course, like you all know I guess, I

[john cleese]

john cleese-all right, not bad. I have to wonder though, do we really have "a standard" on Eurobricks? I would not say something like that to a new builder. If someone came here and said "I built a jumbo jet" and it was two 2 x 6 red bricks stacked to make a 't' and a windshield I think they have as much right to post as someone who is an expert...You gave some nice tips-researching on Brickshelf, making it like Time Cruisers, but chasing someone out the door with a broom is a little discouraging...

- a lot of people who respond in harsh ways to things like this say "But that is just how I am. I tell it like it is." Great! That's fine. But, you choose ways to tell it like it is and you should consider how it makes the other person feel. To participate in a friendly community, you should think "encourage" instead of "discourage"...

well I was suspecting you would say something like that. I think we know i wouldnt say such a thing in a real situation. I was never that kind of guy. I was many annoying types of guys but not that type.

What i was trying to achieve here was a critique that stayed true to myself, (non-candy coated). This is infact how i try to keep all my responses to mocs, atleast lately. If i told Fartface that i liked any part of the moc, I would have lied and therefore he would be given a false critique. I would not offer him any specific suggestions either as the project lacks direction and the moc could become based on my ideas, limiting his creative freedom. So I encouraged him to fix the moc to a point where it would be accepted by the afol community in any way he pleased. I do think if we have an age limit and expel members who make shallow responses, we would also have a standard for mocing. I mean I wouldnt expect my 7 year old brothers painting of a sun to be displayed at a gallery because it is below the standards of an art gallery. Edit: We dont have to work in absolutes. Theres nothing wrong with standards but i think the standards should remain fairly low. I bet I wont give fartfaces second attempt such a harsh review.

Edit: Hinkley are you saying you think im a guy who calls em as he sees them? I try to make my posts to mocs as generous as possible. It makes me sad to hear that, if thats the case.

Edited October 2, 2007 by john cleese

[Asuka]

What i was trying to achieve here was a critique that stayed true to myself, (non-candy coated).

(...)

I would not offer him any specific suggestions either as the project lacks direction and the moc could become based on my ideas, limiting his creative freedom.

Two very good points here, john cleese. Nobody should have to lie here in order to

build up some kind of false kingdom of harmony. But of course it

[john cleese]

Two very good points here, john cleese. Nobody should have to lie here in order to

build up some kind of false kingdom of harmony. But of course it

Edited October 2, 2007 by john cleese

[Hinckley]

john, don't take anything I say too seriously. It's only my opinion after all. No reason to be sad and I'm sorry if I made you feel that way. See my other post about your "standards" comment if you want to know more about what I meant. (it is a response to Lasse D's post...)

well I was suspecting you would say something like that. I think we know i wouldnt say such a thing in a real situation. I was never that kind of guy. I was many annoying types of guys but not that type.

What i was trying to achieve here was a critique that stayed true to myself, (non-candy coated).

In my opinion, when you respond to an MOC it should be about them and not you. Stay true to yourself, great, I'm not telling you to be someone else. But constructive criticism does not equal candy-coated. No one's asking you to blow sunshine or lie, just don't say things that are discouraging...

This is infact how i try to keep all my responses to mocs, atleast lately. If i told Fartface that i liked any part of the moc, I would have lied and therefore he would be given a false critique.

john, did you bother to read the whole thread? Read my posted responses above for a more thorough response to this-I don't think anyone should lie. If you don't like any part of the MOC, then comment on the person's energy, attitude or creativity. I think anyone can find even the worst MOC has one clever part to it...

I would not offer him any specific suggestions either as the project lacks direction and the moc could become based on my ideas, limiting his creative freedom. So I encouraged him to fix the moc to a point where it would be accepted by the afol community in any way he pleased. I do think if we have an age limit and expel members who make shallow responses, we would also have a standard for mocing.

This is where I disagree with you the most and again if you read the whole thread you'd see what I think about this "standard" idea. No, there should be no standard. This is a community forum, not an art gallery. I can't think of anything more snotty or elitist than telling someone their creation is not good enough to post for critique.

[Asuka]

I think i was very close to a fine balance.

Ahem, although I quoted you, john, I didn

[john cleese]

This is where I disagree with you the most and again if you read the whole thread you'd see what I think about this "standard" idea. No, there should be no standard. This is a community forum, not an art gallery. I can't think of anything more snotty or elitist than telling someone their creation is not good enough to post for critique.

I didnt mean it wasnt good enough for critique but that it is probably considered a bad moc by the afol community and not suitable as art. The attitude in that post was much a result of the kind of character fartface is aswell (the kind that would be banned from here). For instance he was obviously over confident. If he had come here saying "i know my moc sucks i just want to learn to be better" i would have given him a nice response that said "dont give up! No matter what!". I figured what fartface needed was humility beause we grow from humility.

Edit: I should also say that the fact that he will come back here with a new moc and learn from his mistakes will ensure i wont give him such a bad wrap in round 2.

Edit: Are you now saying that im a headstrong type that tears peoples mocs to shreds but that is only your opinion? That doesnt exactly cheer me up. Have you seen my actual replies to novice mocs? Im not an advanced builder myself, which is really due to lack of pieces but i can sympathize with these guys.

Edited October 3, 2007 by john cleese

[Hinckley]

I didnt mean it wasnt good enough for critique but that it is probably considered a bad moc by the afol community and not suitable as art. The attitude in that post was much a result of the kind of character fartface is aswell (the kind that would be banned from here). For instance he was obviously over confident. If he had come here saying "i know my moc sucks i just want to learn to be better" i would have given him a nice response that said "dont give up! No matter what!". I figured what fartface needed was humility beause we grow from humility.

Well, I think fartface's attitude is just fine. What did he say that was over-confident? I don't know what he did that makes you think he would be banned, but you would benefit from reading things:

So, let's assume fartface isn't a back-talker and already knows how to re-size pics but he's really eager to be a better builder. How would you respond to him/me?

But, you're right. We can all use some humility... ;-)

Edit: Also are you now saying that im a headstrong type that tears peoples mocs to shreds but that is only your opinion? That doesnt exactly cheer me up. Have you seen my actual replies to novice mocs? Im not an advanced builder myself, which is really due to lack of pieces but i can sympathize with these guys.

I think your responses to novice MOCs are great. Somewhere in this thread I already said I think your attitude has improved greatly. I have nothing against you. :-)

[john cleese]

Well, I think fartface's attitude is just fine. What did he say that was over-confident? I don't know what he did that makes you think he would be banned, but you would benefit from reading things:

Well firstly its titled the best moc i ever build. So he is claiming that its a really good moc right? He also doesnt say himself that he wants to improve or admits hes not a very good builder, you did it for him in the description. Although i wouldnt ban fartface myself, it seems like he fits the description of the kind of member who would be banned. He has poor typing skills and his name is fartface and his post is childish. I recall a member who came here a while back and expressed that he didnt like the direction lego was headed. The post was painful to read and didnt elaborate on why he disliked where lego was going but the EB members shunned him, dare i say flamed? He didnt say anything obscene or rude as far as i recall. I remember someone said

Your not welcome here with that attitude mate. >:-(.

My point is I dont see a great difference between him and the fictional fartface.

Im worried we are creating tension here unecessarily Hinkley. I mean fartface is a fictional character hes not something worth fighting over is he? I just fear we're headed towards an argument and inevitably another showdown. :-D

[Hinckley]

Well firstly its titled the best moc i ever build. So he is claiming that its a really good moc right? He also doesnt say himself that he wants to improve or admits hes not a very good builder, you did it for him in the description.

No, it says "the best moc I ever built" not the best one ever, but his best-the best he can do-the one he's the most proud of...he says "please go easy on me" and yes, you were supposed to listen to what I said in the description and not make this into an issue but just focus on critiquing the moc.

Although i wouldnt ban fartface myself, it seems like he fits the description of the kind of member who would be banned. He has poor typing skills and his name is fartface and his post is childish. I recall a member who came here a while back and expressed that he didnt like the direction lego was headed. The post was painful to read and didnt elaborate on why he disliked where lego was going but the EB members shunned him, dare i say flamed? He didnt say anything obscene or rude as far as i recall. I remember someone said My point is I dont see a great difference between him and the fictional fartface.

If I'm thinking of the same incident, the member was a previously banned member and the attitude that wasn't appreciated was being non-constructive...

Im worried we are creating tension here unecessarily Hinkley. I mean fartface is a fictional character hes not something worth fighting over is he? I just fear we're headed towards an argument and inevitably another showdown. :-D

Then stop talking about it & did we have a showdown before? I don't remember...

[john cleese]

Then stop talking about it & did we have a showdown before? I don't remember...

I wasnt aware that other guy had been bannned before. woops.

No we've never had a showdown before.

[Siegfried]

I just fear we're headed towards an argument and inevitably another showdown. :-D

I'll be getting a bit grumpy if Hinckley throws down the gauntlet again. I don't want him to have any excuses when I beat him... ;-)

[Corvus]

I agree with the "football coach" method of no BS. I prefer it in person. Online, however, without benefit of tone or personality, it may come off as harsh to the more sensitive...

I think you hit the nail on the head here. I like to be told what I did wrong, but on the internet... a few people I know have been very insulted by that sort of thing by their friends. Being in between them...

Mr. M-Nice job as well. You got some positive energy in there and good tips.

Thank you. I find positive energy the best... energy for me. I'm not very competitive, so (if I were fartface) shunning me, in the hope of getting me determined to do better, would most likely cause me to get glummer and glummer.

It was very short and sweet which is good sometimes with a new builder to just give a little bit, you know? That way they're not too intimidated.

To be honest I couldn't find much to help with. :-$ Personally, I prefer long replies, because it looks like the poster is very interested in what I'm building.

Especially with as many comments before you as you had. If you are the first reply, maybe stretch it out a little, but you did a real nice job offering tips and being encouraging.

Thanks.

I'll be getting a bit grumpy if Hinckley throws down the gauntlet again. I don't want him to have any excuses when I beat him...

If I only had his hat... I just had the funniest vision if Hinkley's sigfig with a terrified expression, and his hand lying on the ground. :-D

[Hinckley]

Personally, I prefer long replies, because it looks like the poster is very interested in what I'm building.

I agree with this. I feel, though, that if an MOC is getting a lot of critique-as opposed to compliment-it is better to stick to just one point. Give the new builder or sub-par builder a chance to digest all of the tips...

[Corvus]

I agree with this. I feel, though, that if an MOC is getting a lot of critique-as opposed to compliment-it is better to stick to just one point. Give the new builder or sub-par builder a chance to digest all of the tips...

So I suppose that's too much of a good thing? Good point, you need to have something for an easy pat-on-the-back. X-D

Are you going to make another MOC for "Fartface"? If so, I think people should take turns making their own "amateur" MOC, so we can have a good variety of amateurness. (That can't be a word, can it? Let's say it is. :-P )

[Hinckley]

So I suppose that's too much of a good thing? Good point, you need to have something for an easy pat-on-the-back. X-D

Are you going to make another MOC for "Fartface"? If so, I think people should take turns making their own "amateur" MOC, so we can have a good variety of amateurness. (That can't be a word, can it? Let's say it is. :-P )

Sure, it's a word! I say go for it. Make a crappy MOC. It's fun! *sweet*

[Shadows]

A very interesting premise for a thread, and one that I've found educational.

Up to this point, I just don't reply if I can't figure out something to say that is positive. That doesn't happen often, and don't take it personally if I don't reply whenever you (any of you) build something, it's another problem entirely.

That problem, is repetition. I can only say the same thing so many times before I feel like I'm being insincere, even if I'm not. I mentioned it in another thread once, but basically it comes down to this. Nice MOC, I like that <detail>, please be sure to share your progress (or something like that). Rinse. Repeat.

It's something I need to work on, and am.

Specifically to Fartface: You should challenge Hinckley to a build-off, clearly you could take him >:-)

[john cleese]

I was just wondering when we'll see the return of our friend Fartface?