BoBS ruleset poll

[SkaForHire]

Hello everyone, I am trying to hammer out the last of a working draft of the BoBS system this week.

I have a question for you all though as I go through this. I spent a few hours making a very detailed system of property owning, squatting, raiding, trading, and other mechanisms, but it would take a little while to read and understand. In this version there is an economic engine that allows players to achieve new goals, new rights, and even their own colonies. It is a bit complex though.

We also have a draft of basic economic rules without the property owning, raiding, or other ways to obtain gold other than simple free builds and challenge builds (and duels) . I think it is almost ready to use, but makes the project much more like Guilds of Historica than something entirely new.

So, my question to you all is which would you rather see?

A) A complex system from the start that will take some time to get used to

B) A simple system, with basic gold gathering objectives, but not much depth beyond that.

C) A tiered system, we start with the simple system, and every few months lay down another part of the rules scheme to make the game more complex over time. The disadvantage here is to newer players who start in the more complicated scheme later on after the veterans know it like the back of their hand. The other drawback is some of the features will not be available for some time.

EDIT: I should mention that the whole system is designed that a builder could "play" outside the game mechanism if they wished. Their team would still receives points and gold for their builds, but they are not kept track of (or limited) by the game system with points and scores. They also can't achieve some of the achievements and positions in the game, but they are not limited as much by the game's currency, gold.

Edited July 26, 2015 by SkaForHire

[Captain Dee]

I think the tiered approach would allow greater complexity (making it more realistic, with the understanding that realism isn't the goal) without overwhelming anyone at the start, with the obvious stated disadvantage to new members over time. But new members are always "disadvantaged" in the sense that they have to step into a rushing current, so it probably doesn't make much difference in that regard. I'm not much of a gameplay person, though; I'd rather just build and enjoy the whole creative process, so my input is probably less important than serious gameplay members - the very people who will really drive this. I like the simplest approach best as a builder, but I realize there isn't nearly as much excitement or adventure or sense of accomplishment that way and it's probably not as popular a position. It's like checkers vs chess - both are strategy games, but immensely different. I think it could work well however it's done, and I may not be able to devote much attention to it anyway (thanks to my true-history projects). I'd like to hear what anyone else thinks besides just seeing the results.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Captain Dee

[blackdeathgr]

I think that primarily there should be a loose system that rewards gold or goods (wood, rum, bricks etc) which in turn buy you property (plantations, inns, shipyards, titles, looting rewards) that promote roleplaying. That way we wont discourage newcomers. We dont have the power in numbers such as GoH, at least for now. In that system, historic/fantasy freebuilding AND story related creation both go hand in hand. Islands need freebuilt inns and ports after all, just as they need stories to advance and prosper. In any case, i can help the creators any way you see fit. Just pm me. Else, i am eagerly waiting for the project to start as i am currently recruiting imperials of all kinds and colours :-)

Edited July 26, 2015 by blackdeathgr

[Capt Wolf]

I think we need to do everything we can to keep this inviting to newcomers. If we add on complexitiy after the start, we'll just be discouraging new members to dive in later.

[SkaForHire]

This is why I posted the poll, I had written some pretty in depth and interesting rules that create an economy, which in turn created the scoring system, etc... I think they are a pretty fun game in the long run... but... I didn't want to spend another ten hours writing rules we aren't going to use.

From the looks of the early poll, this may not be what people want.

[Captain Nemo]

I voted for B, the 'simple' rules.

I felt the description of the suggested rules already seemed a bit out there--both in terms of difficulty and emphasis. What I mean is, when I think of BoBS, I imagine it as essentially a ship version of the Guilds--where there would be far more emphasis on sea vessels rather than island/city/colony building--which seemed to take far more emphasis on the rules with phrases like "squatting"; which feels more like colonial political bickering rather than high states pirate life. I always knew that there would be some portion of colony building, but I think those rules, at least from what I see now, focus on that too much--and it seems like ships are taking second fiddle. I mean, in a pirate world, why would you spend a year opening a textile factory when you could just get on a boat and make a lifetime worth of profit by sacking a few galleons in a month?

I do have to voice concerns I have about additional non-contest general gold gathering. I'm just throwing out the question on how we would implement that? By adding additional methods to gain gold/points, outside of official challenges, I wonder how the additional gold would be regulated in a way to ensure it's fair and properly recorded. Would there be a member/mod/one person who dictates extra builds are worth however much gold? Really, I think there would need to be a system to regulate how extra gold/points would be given out in a manner that would avoid having to rely on everyone individually (which would be really hard for mods to regulate and record) or forcing loads of expectations on one person to keep track of everything. I'm admittedly not a very active member of the Guilds (at the moment), but I do recognize the struggles of regulation on a number of issues (especially points and freebuilds, which is slowly getting fixed), so I think we need to make sure the BoBS from the start has answers to these potential issues.

[Capn Frank]

I voted B, but I could see a temporary tier of more complex rules for a specific challenge between factions or within a faction. People entering a challenge should already have a basic understanding of the basics, and would be the one's likely to enter challenges. After the challenge, everything should still translate into the 'basic' economy of BoBS.

I think we need to do everything we can to keep this inviting to newcomers. If we add on complexitiy after the start, we'll just be discouraging new members to dive in later.

I agree.

[Captain Dee]

There really is no "perfect" solution in the sense that no two people have exactly the same interests. If I had unlimited time to spend on it I'd say make it complicated, make it somewhat realistic, and watch us build our empires... but I have very little free time, and the more complicated it is the less interest I have in joining, period - because the real world already has too many hoops to jump through. If, say, land ownership required a few simple tasks anyone could make it happen, but if the process looks even vaguely real, it will look and feel cumbersome to many of us. I don't think a complicated approach is bad per se, but I do think it would take much of the fun out of it for me personally. I don't participate in GoH, but it always looked simple enough to be inviting to anyone. I like Phred's idea - specific tasks could come with more complicated rules without affecting the entire program. But that in itself could be complicated! Decisions, decisions.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Captain Dee

[Rotaser]

I voted for C, as I'll take it like board or computer games: Start easy (basic rules/tutorial) and than build up (advanced or house rules/side-quests).

But as I read through this topic I have to admit, that I would go confirm with Phred (advanced rules for quests).

I voted for C, as I'll take it like board or computer games: Start easy (basic rules/tutorial) and than build up (advanced or house rules/side-quests).

But as I read through this topic I have to admit, that I would go confirm with Phred (advanced rules for quests).

[blackdeathgr]

While i generally play fairly complex strategy pc games like Hearts of Iron etc, In a LEGO variation, I agree with the "simplier = more possible participants" rule.

Free builds can only generate a fixed income based on complexity and again the rewards should be much less than contest builds. Plus i dont agree on a BoBS perspective that has 80% ship builds and 20% of all the rest. This is a fictional Caribbean and there were way more things than pirates. And ships are just the means, not the focal point imo.

[SkaForHire]

That may not have been the best description. Raiding and sacking is a huge part of the advanced rules. But... there is only one way to say that, and there are many other things that happened during the age of sail that I listed. Don't forget, without those colonies, colonists, and merchants, pirates are a bit up a creek. No one to raid = no food, gold, booze, or really point of being. It would be pretty boring if we all were cruising around in pirate ships and no on played the other end of the stick...

The reason why creating one's own colony is appealing is that I think most people will start making some land builds, because you can only depict a sea battle so many ways in a row before it gets boring. Also, don't forget that a pirate's life was spent the majority of the time on land, in contrast to a naval seaman.

[Capt Wolf]

I could see a temporary tier of more complex rules for a specific challenge between factions or within a faction. People entering a challenge should already have a basic understanding of the basics, and would be the one's likely to enter challenges. After the challenge, everything should still translate into the 'basic' economy of BoBS.

If we do add some complexity, I think Phred has a good formula. Some challenges might have special rules, but things would revert to normal after that challenge.

[Stash2Sixx]

I voted complex...although really, how complex can it be? We fight, we sail, we build...and other stuff.

I like different and unique! Don't want to be the same as everyone else right?

[MiloNelsiano]

I say keep it simple. You're saying the simple version will be similar to GoH, which is already somewhat complicated and deterring to newcomers joining (I myself resisted joining GoH because it seemed complicated/confusing). Your idea in the complicated rule set seems promising, so it makes me wonder if it could be implicated in a challenge or something similar later on.

[James Wellington]

I hope we, with this poll, be able to speed up the process of developing this so we can get started faster (not to sound impatient), because I've been waiting for a while for this to start. And I know, it requires tons of work, but I'm just really looking forward to it I also say keep it simple, I mean, come on we don't need all these complex rules, and certainly not right away. If we need some, we can add some later on, but for now, keep it simple..

[blackdeathgr]

Sharpen your cutlasses, the end of all civillised but unprotected colonies is near...

[SkaForHire]

I say keep it simple. You're saying the simple version will be similar to GoH, which is already somewhat complicated and deterring to newcomers joining (I myself resisted joining GoH because it seemed complicated/confusing). Your idea in the complicated rule set seems promising, so it makes me wonder if it could be implicated in a challenge or something similar later on.

Not to pick on Milo here, but I just wanted to address something, because this can relate here as well.

I really think this is a common misconception of GOH. There are almost no rules in GOH. Rule one) You only are in one guild. Rule Two) don't kill others' sigfigs Rule three) don't go nuts with technology Rule four)play nice with others . There is no game mechanic at all in GOH, and the only thing resembling such is the very loose use of gold, which has not been transferred into much meaning in Book 2. Book One worked that whichever guild had the most gold at the end of six challenges would be the winner, that was it.

Now in the last challenge I introduced a temporary game for the Kaliphlin Civil War. But that is no longer active, so we are back to just no rules.

As it bounces back here, I think the idea amongst those in charge was that there would be some sort of game, something to keep everything moving. (If you are not familiar, GOH gets stale every couple months between challenges, there isn't enough to do once people have done all the mini challenges) I think the difference is between a light mechanic and a more intensive game mechanic. The problem with the later is it requires more work on the part of faction leaders.

I understand that some people don't necessarily want to play a game, which is OK, the "rule set" includes the version where you play like GOH. The same exact rules I mentioned above, extremely simple. Nobody has to play the advanced game. We could launch it tomorow if the maps and stories were done. However, we also decided sometime last year that we wanted to make sure that a good project was in place with the building blocks to continue adding more game elements before we launched.

So there should be something for everyone, those who want to treat it like a building war and strategy game and those who want to make it like GOH, an open ended story without any actual restrictions other than you can't switch sides (often).

This isn't a criticism of those who voted to have a simple set, just defining what simple set entails -- as it will have some sort of game mechanic. Those of you who don't want to participate in that part of BoBS can still have a lot of fun in the project doing other things. From what we have brainstormed, the actual major challenges would not have anything to do with the game part, they would be mostly building / story challenges.

[Maxim I]

We can make it complex with a tutorial system for newcomers so they learn the system fairly quickly.

We also can say they have to complete the tutorial before they are allowed to take part in the challenges.

They learn how the system works and by building smaller mocs for the tutorial, they can improve quickly their skills.

The tutorial can be seen as "how to become a captain for faction x" and the tutorial challenges can be stuff like:

1: design your captain and present him before the leader

2: build his hide out

3: make him do some action (capture a neutral ship, something diplomatic, do some fishing, ...)

4: some stuff based on the game mechanisme

By completing the tutorial, the newcomer showed his alledgiance to his teammate

[Captain Dee]

I voted to keep it simple, but the most important thing is to keep everything clear and easy to understand. I don't have a problem with a very complicated arrangement so long as everything is spelled out well enough that a complete stranger could start up and run with it without feeling the need to ask hundreds of questions. Accomplish this, and I think it will be very friendly to new members.

GoH keeps coming up. I already said it's the building aspect that interests me most (rather than gameplay) and considering the time period and realistic happenings, something like the town-building part of GoH is very appealing. I could live with complicated rules if I could build up a town that isn't tied explicitly to the overall story/gameplay. Basically it would be a personal challenge rather than a competition, and there's a nearly endless list of material that could be used for those types of things. But again, the most important thing is to keep everything organized and explained well enough to not look like an imposing mountain for starters - whether us, now, or a newcomer years from now.

I really like the idea of requiring newcomers to build their way in with a very specific list of requirements, so everyone starts out by completing the same tasks rather than a free-for-all like GoH, which I strongly suspect is the root of most confusion in that forum. Thoughts?

[Capt Wolf]

I voted to keep it simple, but the most important thing is to keep everything clear and easy to understand. I don't have a problem with a very complicated arrangement so long as everything is spelled out well enough that a complete stranger could start up and run with it without feeling the need to ask hundreds of questions. Accomplish this, and I think it will be very friendly to new members.

Captain Dee sums up my feelings exactly. For what it's worth, I'm very interested in the potential game play aspect of BoBS. I'm also very anxious to get started!

[SkaForHire]

I didn't say GoH had a lot of rules, I said it was complicated. With all the different components to it, (AoM, UoP, HSS, mini-challenges, main challenges, etc.) it is a lot for someone completely new to learn. It may not seem so to people who have been around GoH from the beginning, and of course once someone has built for GoH for a while, he or she learns it all fairly quickly. It is just a bit overwhelming starting out. I don't think BoBS should be identical to GoH, I would just like to keep it newcomer friendly. It may be possible to do so with the complex ruleset you've described. I hope so anyway, it really does sound promising! The game you set up for the Kaliphlin civil war was amazing--an amazing number of MOCs were made, and the quality of most of them was unbelievable. However, if the contest had run much longer would it have sustained itself? Maybe. I think the challenge was enjoyable but a lot of people were glad when it was over because they were able to take a break from building for it. It might not be the case for this ruleset you've written, but that's another fear I have for this. Anyway, I'll quit rambling now. Like I said, the ruleset you've written sounds promising, and it would be very interesting to see. I just hope it is welcoming for newcomers. I have an idea that might make it easier to learn, but it would be difficult to describe without a better understanding of your ruleset.

I know, I was just addressing the complicated part, and not trying to pick on you about it! The problem is, just what you have mentioned about GOH will happen here as well, once we get about a year in, it will be the same complex storylines and background that were weaved in the first book of GOH...

As for the war challenge, these rules are nothing like that, I promise. Although we may do a war challenge in the future, I am not throwing in grids or anything right now! I would never put that in as a permanent feature, you are right, people were glad to be done at the end.

The "complex" rules are the equivalent of the AOM or UoP activities really.

I am not speaking directly at you here, just addressing stuff, I don't want anyone to feel like I am lashing out here.

Basically, what I would like to see in place by the time we launch it (soon hopefully) is a small economic system (something to do with your gold), a conflict resolution set of rules (something GOH does not have) and a hint towards the other building activities that will come later (the complex rules, which involve building one's own colony / ships / etc... and earning gold in larger numbers rather than just "free build" gold)

[Maxim I]

I know, I was just addressing the complicated part, and not trying to pick on you about it! The problem is, just what you have mentioned about GOH will happen here as well, once we get about a year in, it will be the same complex storylines and background that were weaved in the first book of GOH...

A 'Diary of king X' may be the solution for this.

I would suggest that every faction chooses a writer who describes every action in a (pinned) faction topic.

For example. Factionmember Johny makes a Moc about his ship trading with islanders. The appointed writer of that faction writes in the "Diary of King X" in one sentence that Johny traded with islanders (with a link to the action).

Newbies will be able to read the Diary so they are easily updated what happened.

Another advantage is for people like me who are sometimes not able to be active for a small period and after that small period they lack the courage to go through tons of MoC's so they know what happened in their absence (I am refering to GoH, where I am absolutely lost again between all those new stories for the 5th time in my GoH-carreer).

If you guys are cheering for this idea, I would suggest to work this time with a real timeline and say for example that every week in real life is a month in BoBS (so times goes 4.5x faster)

[Kwatchi]

The synopsis diary/timestamp idea seems like a great solution to the barrier faced by late coming, curious builders like myself.

I know it seems silly to veterans, but GoH can be rather opaque at first glance. It takes a couple of hours of drilling down to really start getting a feel for what has happened previously. This idea could only help in that regard.

My 2 bricks.

[Ardelon]

I am in the "keep it simple" camp, to make it as easy as possible for newcomers to jump on the bandwagon. Maybe, if members would want more, they could vote on it somewhere down the line, but it should start simple.

But having said that, I dont see myself joining anytime in the foreseeable future, so my vote should be weighted as such.

Edited August 6, 2015 by Ardelon