Main Street Mafia: Day Two

[Dragonfire]

Okay. I'm back now, after being away for a while. First, I'll reply to Eugene's comment:

Dragonfire (Christopher): His "arguments" with Brian seemed a little off to me. I know scum don't typically try to associate in the day thread (maybe I should look at those who avoided talking about Brian?), but when they do, it's usually in the form of arguments to show they disagree, and are therefore, not aligned. That is what Christopher's comments reminded me of. That said, I don't know Christopher very well, so maybe this is standard fare for him? Either way, my suspicions are raised.

All I can say is that I thought Brian was scummy, and said it. At the time of my vote for him, I was in a hurry and wanted to get my vote in before the time limit, and so I voted for the person who I thought was most scummy quickly. I can't really defend myself against "seeming a bit off"

My current suspicions are Russel and Gregory; I also find the bandwagon on Sarah suspicious. I told Pamela this via PM because I couldn't post on the day thread anymore and I wanted not to forget it.

[Tamamono]

Gah - voting is already open! But I agree; here's another option to consider, someone who was defending Brian from the get-go on Day One.... kind of circumspect, but I would expect a player of his experience to be able to defend his scum buddies without drawing too much attention.

Vote: Pamela Cooper (Tamamono)

I wouldn't necessarily call it a defense, and I was open to his possibility of being scum, but I see where you're coming from. That vote's perfectly valid if you want to keep it that way, but it's not on scum.

Ah, voting has started once again. Today, for now, I'll be casting my vote for Russel. Vote: Russel Price: (Sandy)

My thought process behind this is that I want to peice together the puzzle pieces left over from the Sarah vote. The way I see things there's got to be at least one scum in that last minute attempt to divert the bandwagon from Shady. Whether it's the started of the vote (Irene) the second to hop on (Eric), or the third, when it looked like it might actually be a bandwagon (Russel). Any one of these might be scum (not all 3, imo), but certainly one of them. of the three, I don't expect it to be Irene, since the started of that last minute bandwagon could expect to get too much undesired attention, and it would be a very obvious move if a bandwagon did not follow. Similary, I feel that Eric would also not be the most likely scum, since there was still not a very big chance of a bandwagon then. Russel's vote though would have made the vote closer to the bandwagon the scum needed, so that's why I think we should lynch him. If I'm wrong we can test the others.

Eugene and I are of one mind here. I see Russell as the most likely scum of the bunch. Not only has he seemed extremely forced thus far, but his vote on Sarah was the worst one - most likely trying to draw votes away from Brian at a critical moment. Thisis opposed to Greg (who, while very suspicious, does exhibit play somewhat similar to this when town), or Irene, who I feel is the most pro-town of those calling for Sarah's head.

Vote: Russell (Sandy)

Greg vote is cool too, but as I said above, I think there's the largest possibility for error in lynching him.

[Sandy]

Someone (or multiple someones) clearly wanted that bandwagon to develop.

I don't necessarily agree. I don't know about Irene or Eric, but I personally voted for Sarah because she seemed to be the best option at the time, after Al's lynch mob dispersed. What if you're all just on a wild goose chase, and none of us is actually scum? Everybody's been so caught up in this one theory that the three votes for Sarah must be super meaningful that nothing else seems to bear any importance. It was just three votes on Day One when votes were flying here and there, no alternative bandwagon was formed, and eventually a scum got nailed. What was the harm done, exactly?

Like I said, I would've loved to be on the same schedule as the rest of you guys who were there by the end of the day, but I wasn't. Am I really getting lynched because of that?

If that happens, I hope you will put the pressure on the people who pushed for this theory tomorrow. I'll come up town, so they'll just move onto Eric or Irene saying "Oops, got that one wrong. Well, there's two more people who we can test our pointless theory on!".

"Them" being Eugene and Pamela, of course.

[Dannylonglegs]

I don't necessarily agree. I don't know about Irene or Eric, but I personally voted for Sarah because she seemed to be the best option at the time, after Al's lynch mob dispersed. What if you're all just on a wild goose chase, and none of us is actually scum? Everybody's been so caught up in this one theory that the three votes for Sarah must be super meaningful that nothing else seems to bear any importance. It was just three votes on Day One when votes were flying here and there, no alternative bandwagon was formed, and eventually a scum got nailed. What was the harm done, exactly?

Like I said, I would've loved to be on the same schedule as the rest of you guys who were there by the end of the day, but I wasn't. Am I really getting lynched because of that?

If that happens, I hope you will put the pressure on the people who pushed for this theory tomorrow. I'll come up town, so they'll just move onto Eric or Irene saying "Oops, got that one wrong. Well, there's two more people who we can test our pointless theory on!".

"Them" being Eugene and Pamela, of course.

Sure, I could be wrong. I'll admit that. I have no way of knowing who's scum and who isn't apart from by examining evidence (Vot patterns, statements, activity levels, etc.) and trying to figure out how all these behaviors figure in to the larger picture. There are 4 or 3 scum out there (probably), and there were 5 or 4 yesterday. The scum do not want their own lynched. They try not to be obvious in their machinations, but there will always be ways to figure it out. We got very lucky yesterday and by chance, our unorganized guess work managed to beat the supposedly unified scum team and we lynched Shady. The scum were trying to make sure that that did not happen, but they failed. We now get the opportunity to reexamine the events of the previous day to figure out what looks like the scum trying to avoid his lynching, and call it out. It just so happens, that to me, the last minute voting for Sarah by three people before the brunt of the bandwagon on Shady took off strikes me as something that would have benefited the scum if it had worked and split Shady's vote. So maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you are not scum.... but the scum wanted that vote to get split yesterday. that looks to me like evidence of a scum team intervention. Whether it was the instigator of the bandwagon, the second follower to jump on, or you, I'm sure there's a scum on that wagon.

Also, if it makes you feel any better, it wouldn't matter to me if you had Unvote her and joined the shadows vote, because that would still read scummy to me. Even if you did show up later in the day to vote for Shadows, by then his lynch would be sealed or swiftly becoming that, and your vote, like all the last votes on a bandwagon, would not be nearly as meaningful.

I am directing my analysis at those who appeared to attempt to contribute towards a no-lynch yesteday, either by splitting the vote (Irene, Eric, and Russel), or by non-commitment to the Shady lynch in its early stages (Greg), so I would be willing to change my vote to Lynch any one of those 3 (or 4 if we count Greg). I am most suspicious of Russel, followed by Eric, then Greg and Irene. I personally want to test my Sarah-vote theory.

To summarize, a townie can appear as a scum by mistakenlya king a bad move, a move that they have no idea would benefit the scum... but the scum make those moves too, and at this moment it's impossible to tell the difference. We can only test those who made bad moves in hopes that we catch those who made them with malice of forthought.

Sorry for the wall of text.

[JackJonespaw]

I don't necessarily agree. I don't know about Irene or Eric, but I personally voted for Sarah because she seemed to be the best option at the time, after Al's lynch mob dispersed. What if you're all just on a wild goose chase, and none of us is actually scum? Everybody's been so caught up in this one theory that the three votes for Sarah must be super meaningful that nothing else seems to bear any importance. It was just three votes on Day One when votes were flying here and there, no alternative bandwagon was formed, and eventually a scum got nailed. What was the harm done, exactly?

It just makes too much sense for one of you guys in the bandwagon to be scum. A last minute attempt to save your scum buddy Brian by throwing attention on a nice little townie like me (which, your reasons at the time were...somewhat...warranted. I was lurking, but Brian was too big of an issue to attempt to remove everyone's attention from him.) And it wasn't "just three votes". It was three consecutive votes, one right after another. (with a Bob vote tally in the middle of them)

[TrumpetKing]

I've also got a watcher claim, a doctor claim and a vig claim. Let me know in private if anyone's lying.

Wait, you have a watcher claim? I thought you were the watcher though? Interesting. Scummy, but interesting.

I haven't had much time to give collective thoughts recently, but tonight I will. For now, I'll throw a vote towards my main suspicion, Russell. Like I said, he's made odd quick defenses and seemed to try and avoid the lynch yesterday. Just an overall uncomforting presence for me.

Vote: Russell (Sandy)

[MagPiesRUs]

Wait, you have a watcher claim? I thought you were the watcher though? Interesting. Scummy, but interesting.

No, I'm the tracker. As I said, my role allows me to see who a player targeted at night. It just turns out I was accidentally given the wrong name in my initial PM.

[Palathadric]

Well to answer your question Eric, I do find Sarah more scummy today than yesterday. As for my changing my vote, it wasn't under pressure to do so. Near the end of the day Al was more active with more helpful things to say and so I started to consider he was telling the truth about his role claim. And as I had previously stated the town needed a lynch, my vote was needed on Brian.

Okay...

Now a question for you. You have just stated that you have a town lean on me and that you feel I am scum two sentences apart. Which is it?

I said:

If there was any relationship between Shirley's death and his vote for Greg, it would probably be that the scum would want to place blame on Greg, and not because they would hope that she would be able to slip under the radar without us noticing if Shirley wasn't around. No. There were enough of us who were suspicious of Shirley to rule out her being able to slip under any radar.

Shirley's death would make me reach the opposite conclusion as you and would make me lean more towards Greg being town.

But I really, really doubt there's any correlation between Shirley's vote on Greg and her death.

I think Shirley was killed because she was an active townie and useful town member.

And for the record, I think both you and Greg are likely scum along with Russel, but that may be wishing much.

I'm not sure how much clearer it needs to be. I said that if her death is anyway linked to his voting you, I would lean towards your being town rather than scum, but since I don't think there's any relationship between them, I still think you're scum.

It looks like you're trying to pick part others arguments and find loopholes that don't exist.

Seriously, that's your logic? You want to vote for Greg, and because of that you think he's scum? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

I mean that I'm voting for him because I think that he's scum. Why else would I even consider voting for him? Wording gets a bit complicated, sorry 'bout that.

I don't know. Your wording is pretty damning. Maybe you want to vote him out not because he's scum, but because you are, eh?

I've been saying this since the beginning of this day, so it shouldn't be any surprise - Vote: Gregory McHenry (Lady K)

Why? A weak defense in the face of accusations. When Shirley and Al voted Day 1, this was Greg's response:

Yep, fluff. As a defense. I do admit that Shirley's sudden vote and the Al's follow up vote with little reason given was a bit strange, but that would have been the perfect time to convince those two of town-y-ness. Yet there was nothing there. It'll have to be a strong defense to get you out of this one, Greg.

It's funny that the reasons you give for voting people always seem to be so weak. I'm not exactly sure what defense you wanted Greg to give when there was nothing in the votes really anyway? Granted, it was weak, but weak enough to base a vote off it? It sounds like you're searching desperately for something original to add to the conversation.

Speaking of Greg though:

To Sarah, this I expected from you considering you have done this to me before with the same poor reasons and I turned up town then....remember the trees?

As for my previous defense it wasn't fluff, we are supposed to stay in character this game which I was because as a Res Q person (the only one) I read a lot of books. It was a reference to Shirley/Shelly about our past game experiences...she always suspects me with a vibe, but I did it in character.

I will also note that you, Sarah, voted quickly for me after I said ( in response to Eric) that I do find you more scummy today than yesterday, but I didn't throw a vote on you right away did I ? No, I didn't and it is because I am looking at all the options today and then I will cast my vote.

Hmmm...scum trying to distance themselves from each other? I'm not sure if harkening back to previous games is a worthy defense...ever... It sounds like you're trying to guilt-pressure someone into not voting for you, but maybe that's just me...

It just makes too much sense for one of you guys in the bandwagon to be scum. A last minute attempt to save your scum buddy Brian by throwing attention on a nice little townie like me

Oh, please, you already said something like this earlier today.

You seem to think that because Brian is scum we should all see you as being, automatically townie.

Eugene you also seem to be ignoring this possibility with your analysis, although I have to say that if Sarah is scum, it's still not at all unlikely that one scum would have gotten in on the action to try to split the vote. :shrug:

Eugene and I are of one mind here.

I do have to say that it does strike me as a little odd that the proponents of the Sarah-bandwagon-scum (how exactly should I label this) theory were two people who seemed to be defending Brian, sort of. Eugene did vote for him late on, but it just strikes me as a little odd.

As far as voting is concerned, I still think any of Greg, Russel, or Sarah would make a good lynch. I don't particularly lean to one more than the others at this point, so I'll hold my vote for now.

[JackJonespaw]

It's funny that the reasons you give for voting people always seem to be so weak. I'm not exactly sure what defense you wanted Greg to give when there was nothing in the votes really anyway? Granted, it was weak, but weak enough to base a vote off it? It sounds like you're searching desperately for something original to add to the conversation.

Everything, to me at least, points directly to Greg being scum. Am I reading too much into all these events? Eh..possibly, but I'm not willing at this moment to change my mind, unless Greg writes something amazingly convincing.

Shirley firmly stood against Greg from the beginning of Day 1, a bit of waffling in the middle, and then voting against Greg at the end, saying "we should have stuck to Greg". Night 1, Shirley dies, begin, again, the only vote against Greg. Greg, already under suspicion for being scum by Shirley, and having lots of pings by the rest of us, decides to get rid of Shirley, hoping that, with Shirley, the suspicion will go away. Mix in allusions to past games, weak defenses, and, now that I remember, saying that Brian "could be town or scum". I'm not quite sure how to take that at all. But it's such a ping that, along with the rest of this stuff, it rolls up into a big metaphorical ball of ping-y-ness and suspicion and overall scumminess. Thus, I voted for who I think is most likely scum. End of story.

Oh, please, you already said something like this earlier today.

You seem to think that because Brian is scum we should all see you as being, automatically townie.

Well, as Brian is scum and I am town, I'm not sure why such a scenario is so impossible. I'm not calling you, Eric, directly out, but one of those who voted for me was surely scum. I've got time to think about exactly who, as well as hearing others' thoughts, so for now, getting Greg lynched and removing one more scum is the best option for me.

[MagPiesRUs]

The day's starting to get late, so I'd better reveal this now. Last night, the cop found us our second scumbag: Irene Allen.

Unvote: Gregory McHenry (Lady K)

Vote: Irene Allen (mostlytechnic)

[Tamamono]

The day's starting to get late, so I'd better reveal this now. Last night, the cop found us our second scumbag: Irene Allen.

Unvote: Gregory McHenry (Lady K)

Vote: Irene Allen (mostlytechnic)

Well, it looks like I was wrong.

Unvote: Russell (Sandy)

Vote: Irene (mostlytechnic)

What does this mean for Russell? Thoughts? I think Eugene's argument that there aren't likely to be many on the Sarah wagon is a convincing one, but I still think Rus is scum.

[Lady K]

Well that is some great new for us. Well done to the cop.

Vote: Irene (mostlytechnic)

As for Russell, he could still be scum, we can look into that tomorrow. I am concerned about how Russell thinks Irene could be scum but wouldn't vote for him.

[JackJonespaw]

It's illogical to not:

Unvote: Gregory McHenry (Lady K)

Vote: Irene Allen (mostlytechnic)

Greg, I suppose we can put you off for another day.

[Dannylonglegs]

Eugene you also seem to be ignoring this possibility with your analysis, although I have to say that if Sarah is scum, it's still not at all unlikely that one scum would have gotten in on the action to try to split the vote. :shrug:

I do have to say that it does strike me as a little odd that the proponents of the Sarah-bandwagon-scum (how exactly should I label this) theory were two people who seemed to be defending Brian, sort of. Eugene did vote for him late on, but it just strikes me as a little odd.

As far as voting is concerned, I still think any of Greg, Russel, or Sarah would make a good lynch. I don't particularly lean to one more than the others at this point, so I'll hold my vote for now.

Pamela and I have been chatting since day 1 began, which is par for the course for a game in which we are both playing. That's also why we tend to agree on things like Ace and Russel.

As for the defending Brian, I freely admit I hadn't the faintest clue as to whether or not he was a scum. I pretty much washed my hands of trying to identify his alignment, which was probably not the smartest or most proactive move I could have made. I know from previous games that he's a really slippery character, so I was also fine with lynching him. From an out-of-character context, I was looking forward to playing with him again, because he tends to make things interesting.

The day's starting to get late, so I'd better reveal this now. Last night, the cop found us our second scumbag: Irene Allen.

Unvote: Gregory McHenry (Lady K)

Vote: Irene Allen (mostlytechnic)

Haha! Validation! I knew someone on that bandwagon was scum! I guess I was just focused on the wrong person! This changes everything! (except my suspicions towards Greg and Ace.) This then means I will be dropping the majority of my suspicions toward Russel and Eric, since my theory held that the bandwagon really only had one scum. This is excellent!

Unvote: Russel (Sandy)

Vote: Irene Allen (mostlytechnic)

[MagPiesRUs]

does this mean for Russell? Thoughts? I think Eugene's argument that there aren't likely to be many on the Sarah wagon is a convincing one, but I still think Rus is scum.

I'm not sure what to think of Russell. It seems awfully risky for more than one scum to have voted for Sarah, but as Russell said himself, he wasn't sure whether or not a Brian lynch would go ahead at that point. So I still think it's possible that the scum may have tried to quickly get a plausible lynch alternative to a strong teammate like Brian.

I'm also a little concerned at the way Irene and Russell have been distancing themselves from each other today. And although they both find each other scummy, neither has actually voted for the other.

[jimmynick]

I'm also a little concerned at the way Irene and Russell have been distancing themselves from each other today. And although they both find each other scummy, neither has actually voted for the other.

Yeah, they have been bickering back and forth all day. I wasn't feeling good about Russell, and now we've found Irene is scum so they do look like they're in cahoots.

Vote: Irene Allen (mostlytechnic)

[mostlytechnic]

Hey! Not cool to say I'm scum. I'm not. Either your cop is lying, YOU are lying (heck, you might not even have been in contact with a claimed cop!), or I got framed.

Yeah, sucks to be me right now since I'm sure none of you will believe me. Wish I had a grand role to claim and save myself, but I don't. So assuming you carry out my lynch, when I flip town tomorrow, LYNCH AL!

Seriously, think for a second. Yesterday Al made a claim under pressure. Succeeded in saving himself, but we got a scummo anyway. But now that he's sorta trusted, he's starting to throw out other accusations and seeing how long he can keep it going. When I flip town, he'll either claim I must have been framed or his "cop" lied to him. Probably that the cop lied and he'll give a name, you'll lynch that cop, and the "cop" will flip town too. He's just manipulating all of you to kill off the town.

[Sandy]

The day's starting to get late, so I'd better reveal this now. Last night, the cop found us our second scumbag: Irene Allen.

Unvote: Gregory McHenry (Lady K)

Vote: Irene Allen (mostlytechnic)

Oh, wow! No wonder she was so aggressively trying to get me voted. Hopefully your source is right...

Unvote: Gregory McHenry (Lady K)

Vote: Irene Allen (mostlytechnic)

I am concerned about how Russell thinks Irene could be scum but wouldn't vote for him.

I never refused to vote for her - I just did! I was suspicious of her because she was on my case so hard, but that's nothing concrete, is it? Now we have something concrete right here.

[StickFig]

Tamo: defense noted. Not accepted, exactly, but noted. I do seem to remember you being ...conciliatory? or perhaps less agressive? in past Day Ones, so,

Unvote: Pamela Cooper (Tamamono)

Alright, will someone please explain to me why we're all so ready to trust a guy that most of us thought was scum yesterday, just because he claimed to be the watcher (which turned out to be wrong, pending defense from the BOB)? Did I miss something? Was TPRU investigated? Is he cleared? If his cop claim is true, I don't have a problem voting off someone who's been investigated and turned up as scum, but I've watched TPRU pull off some crazy scum stunts before and I don't have much reason to believe this isn't one of them. Someone please speak up if he's been cleared, but no apologies for meta-gaming here.

Here's what I want:

1) TPRU investigated, or the results if it's already happened

2) Whoever was investigated last night to come forward (I assume the investigator has spoken to you by now via PM since you're confirmed town)

3) The BOB to tell us whether TPRU's role mix-up was real and not a scum gambit

4) The real watcher to quit talking to unconfirmed people

[Tamamono]

Tamo: defense noted. Not accepted, exactly, but noted. I do seem to remember you being ...conciliatory? or perhaps less agressive? in past Day Ones, so,

When I made the posts I did, I thought to myself, "damn, I'm gonna be pretty ducked if Brian is actually scum," so I think it's really a point to agree to disagree on at this point.

Alright, will someone please explain to me why we're all so ready to trust a guy that most of us thought was scum yesterday, just because he claimed to be the watcher (which turned out to be wrong, pending defense from the BOB)? Did I miss something? Was TPRU investigated? Is he cleared? If his cop claim is true, I don't have a problem voting off someone who's been investigated and turned up as scum, but I've watched TPRU pull off some crazy scum stunts before and I don't have much reason to believe this isn't one of them. Someone please speak up if he's been cleared, but no apologies for meta-gaming here.

Here's what I want:

1) TPRU investigated, or the results if it's already happened

2) Whoever was investigated last night to come forward (I assume the investigator has spoken to you by now via PM since you're confirmed town)

3) The BOB to tell us whether TPRU's role mix-up was real and not a scum gambit

4) The real watcher to quit talking to unconfirmed people

I don't know what good blind skepticism does in this situation when

-we have an uncontested tracker claim (reason to err in his favor)

-a claimed cop result on someone who probably pretty likely to be scum anyway (reason to err in his favor)

-one scum dead already so a gambit would be unwise (reason to err in his favor)

So even if you doubt Al, that's cool, I'm willing to be skeptical too, you still gotta vote for the cop result. Take everything I said when I was in that Joker costume and think of the inverse; that's when you get the actual truth.

[mostlytechnic]

Alright, will someone please explain to me why we're all so ready to trust a guy that most of us thought was scum yesterday, just because he claimed to be the watcher (which turned out to be wrong, pending defense from the BOB)? Did I miss something? Was TPRU investigated? Is he cleared? If his cop claim is true, I don't have a problem voting off someone who's been investigated and turned up as scum, but I've watched TPRU pull off some crazy scum stunts before and I don't have much reason to believe this isn't one of them. Someone please speak up if he's been cleared, but no apologies for meta-gaming here.

Here's what I want:

1) TPRU investigated, or the results if it's already happened

2) Whoever was investigated last night to come forward (I assume the investigator has spoken to you by now via PM since you're confirmed town)

3) The BOB to tell us whether TPRU's role mix-up was real and not a scum gambit

4) The real watcher to quit talking to unconfirmed people

Thank you! Finally, one person here with a brain. Yes, I understand why everyone is voting against me, (and I'd be doing it in your place), but still... Al has felt weird this whole game so far. It's INSANE that a ton of people already claimed roles to him. He is in NO WAY cleared yet! More importantly, I KNOW that someone is lying. He is, or the claimed cop is. Or said cop is paranoid / insane, since I know he's wrong to say I'm scum. In fact, he's SO wrong to say that that I double checked with the bob to make sure no wrong info was sent out. So, just know that tomorrow, you need to find out who this claimed cop is and kill them. Or Al if he's the one behind the whole thing...

[MagPiesRUs]

Alright, will someone please explain to me why we're all so ready to trust a guy that most of us thought was scum yesterday, just because he claimed to be the watcher (which turned out to be wrong, pending defense from the BOB)?

I always said I was a tracker, watcher was just the title I was initially given:

Also, I am the watcher. Actually, that's what I'm called, but I guess I'm more of a tracker because I can see who one person targeted each night.

Yeah, sucks to be me right now since I'm sure none of you will believe me. Wish I had a grand role to claim and save myself, but I don't. So assuming you carry out my lynch, when I flip town tomorrow, LYNCH AL!

Are you sure you don't have a role to claim? Because the watcher saw you targeting Shirley last night... And the watcher knew something that they couldn't possibly have known if they weren't telling the truth, so don't bother saying that they're lying.

The cop didn't really target you. They investigated someone else, but those results aren't relevant at the moment.

There's still a small possibility that you're the SK, but the Shirley kill seems more like a scum kill to me. Either way though, there's zero chance you're a townie.

[StickFig]

-we have an uncontested tracker claim (reason to err in his favor)

I always said I was a tracker, watcher was just the title I was initially given:

Fair enough.

Vote: Irene Allen (mostlytechnic)

[jimmynick]

Ann, I was surprised when you didn't vote and instead gave 4 reasons not to trust Al. I am also surprised that you swayed so soon when you were given information you should have known already.

As Pamela said, Al's tracker claim is uncontested - we have no reason to mistrust him at this point. Were you trying to contrive reasons to mistrust him?

[Bob]

Vote Count:

Irene Allen (mostlytechnic) - 8 (TinyPiesRUs, Tamamono, Lady K, Jackjonespaw, Dannylonglegs, jamesn, Sandy, StickFig)

With 14 players, 8 votes are required for a lynch. There's less than 12 hours left in this day