The scale thing

[Bricksonwheels]

Hello train fanatics..

As some of you know, I build a 1:16 EMD locomotive a while ago, as a sidestep from my regular themes.

http://www.eurobrick...showtopic=99055

Now the whole Lego trainworld is new to me, but being a trainlover I dediced to look into it a bit more for future projects.

I have the idea to make some locomotives that can run on Lego rails as well.

The thing is I don't understand the different scales used. Some build 6, 7 or 8 wide, so now and then you see a 10 stud wide train.

Looking at this from a true technical scale perspective I come to this thing:

The track gauge in Europe and USA is commonly 143,5 cm. Lego rails have a gauge of 4.78 cm. On scale Lego tracks are then: 1:30

This seems a good scale to build on:

The EMD SD40-2 would then be:

Length : 2100 cm = 70.0 cm (1:30), equals 87-88 studs

Width : 305 cm = 10.2 cm (1:30), equals 12-13 studs

Height : 475 cm = 15.8 cm (1:30), equals 19-20 studs

European trains have the same width, but run sometimes on 49'' wheels instead of the 40-44'' run in the USA.

These are realistic proportions compared to the rail tracks. A minifig might be around 1:45 scale, but even then a train will be 8 studs wide, ... on the wrong track dimensions which should then have less gauge.

Have any of you considered this and build a true scale train compared to the track gauge?

Edited October 20, 2014 by Bricksonwheels

[baard]

Hi,

for me a nice build like your EMD is the beautiful part of this hobby, regardless of scale

When building trains, one has to consider that the track gauge is not a deciding factor alone. The minifig is about the same height as the track gauge, whereas the average adult human is far longer than 1,43m.

This means that one has to accept that the Lego train wheels are further to the side than in real life (which poses problems for covering the wheels without a bulky look)

Another is the short radius of the Lego train track curve. A long train has problems getting easily around the narrow curves, especially with wagons.

This combined leaves you with the option of making trains close to TLC own selected size, although a lot more detailing can be achieved with 7 or 8-wide trains. When ME tracks with larger radii are readily available this may change. Another factor is also the trackside structures that has to be made larger using the same scale. It is a brick saving activity to build with a smaller scale. Given that the minifig is a little out of proportion to begin with I can imagine that the train fits (if not his head), his hat

Brick on!

[jrathfon]

I definitely consider scale when I do my MOC's! But first, a correction. Lego rails are at a 6 stud interval, really 5 studs apart. Gauge is measured as the distance between the two insides of the rails, thus lego GAUGE is 38.0 mm and their SCALE is 1:37.76 (or 1:38).

So your 305cm would be 80.77mm or ~10 studs. 10 studs is recognized as the most accurate SCALE if you are going for correct proportions to the gauge. Most builders contemplating the SCALE argument chose to model in 8 wide because, as you mentioned it's lines up with a minifig's scale, and it's a decent compromise between price and effort to build and accuracy to scale. The other caveat here is how your chosen SCALE will negotiate the off-scale tight lego curves. Modelling to scale in 8-wide accurately becomes a challenge when getting your train to run through tight curves and switches. I have an E7, modeled to 8-wide scale accurately, which is 58 studs long. I had to come up with a few solutions to make the couplers, trucks, and bodies negotiate standard tracks.

I model in 8 wide due to price and minifig scale. I think it looks alright compared to the tracks, it can still negotiate the tracks, and well they are toys, I don't have to be 100% accurate to GAUGE. I model narrow gauge based off of 3 stud spaced 22mm GAUGE track. This made my larger 4-6-0 narrow gauge engine ~6 wide SCALE.

I've highlighted GAUGE and SCALE because not a lot of people get the concepts. Gauge is the track spacing and scale is the ratio of your model. What's super confusing is Bachman, Lionel etc. offer narrow gauge models on "O gauge" track, more correctly 32mm track, which are toys and are actually SCALED all over the place:

http://en.wikipedia....odelling_scales

Edited October 20, 2014 by jrathfon

[Redimus]

I just work on a default width of (roughly) 7 wide (but not strictly) and play the rest by eye.

I prefer steam era UK trains, which are very difficult to achieve the level of detail I want as it is, and limiting myself by insisting on sticking to very strict measurements in a medium that is inherently out of scale with reality anyway seems rather self defeating (especially as I'm still relatively new to this, and really don't know all the tricks yet).

Sure am impressed by the guys that do manage it mind.

[peterab]

Another consideration is that the size of the LEGO wheels is quite restrictive, and if you built only to the scale you are suggesting the number of prototypes would be limited. There would not be drivers large enough for most express steam engines for example.

Building in 1:30 scale also puts much more strain on the available motors, it can be done but is much harder to achieve reliable running.

Along with everybody else's comments I hope you can see that there are necessary compromises if you want to build LEGO trains you can run reliably, which compromises you settle for are your own choice but most people choose a scale dictated more by factors other than track gauge, which I think is entirely rational since the radius of LEGO track is inherently wrong anyway.

[Aaron]

1:38.1 is the scale I chose to build all of my trains in, where 1 stud equals 1 foot. I mostly build American diesels and passenger cars for now, and it's worked out nicely for me so far. Eventually I'll have topics and pictures up showing all of the different techniques I use for my 10-wides. I've developed and refined a bunch of different techniques, since my goal is to make them as functional and realistic as possible. The nice thing is that when I build an 85' coach, it's always going to be 85' long. The panels and window panes seem to almost always match up very nicely that way, as well as almost everything else. If it were any bigger, at say 12-wide, the panels and window panes would be too small, and involve a lot of time and effort to find a workable solution. I don't like doing anything less than 10-wide because it makes the window panels that I use appear too big, and takes more effort to get the desired accuracy. Another thing I like about 1:38.1 scale is that the wheel diameter of most coaches is 36", and common LEGO train wheels are 3 studs in diameter, which make things easy as well. With ME models making wide radius curves, and the ability to manually create large radii curves out of straight track pieces, I don't mind building things that need larger curves. With all of the 10-wide infrastructure I've developed over the years for my trains to function in almost every way real trains do, the a I'm finally coming close to finished results, so I don't think I'll ever go back to using any other scale. It was definitely a huge hurdle to overcome at first, but now I'm finally nearing the finish line, and hope to be able to collaborate with and help others who also want to build in that scale.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Aaron

[Duq]

Indeed, building Lego trains for minifig layouts is not like normal scale model building. It's a game of compromise with many conflicting parameters.

For a start there is no fixed scale for 'minifig scale'. Minifigs also don't have human proportions; they're much too wide.

As Peter said, the combination of track gauge and radius is all wrong. Even at around 1:40 carriages at scale length look ridiculous in the curves. You said the EMD would be 88 studs long. That's the outer diameter of a Lego track circle...

Available wheels are another issue. Big Ben XL drivers aren't big enough for the big German steam engines at 1:40, nevermind at bigger scales.

When I build a train I fiddle with the scale around 1:40 - 1:45 for the length to fit the wheel arrangement. The height then follows the length and the width is usually 8 just because you get more details in. With all that they don't look out of place in a layout with minifigs although sometimes a minifig driver won't actually fit in the cab.

[Bricksonwheels]

Thnx for the strong replies. I had actually not meassured the gauge as such, and somebody told me it was 6 wide, but it is actually 5.

I guess 1:38 is then indeed correct, and would also be my own starting point going for a 10-wide.

My aim is not to setup a full layout but something like a workshop area in the future. The idea appeals to me!

[jrathfon]

Thnx for the strong replies. I had actually not meassured the gauge as such, and somebody told me it was 6 wide, but it is actually 5.

I guess 1:38 is then indeed correct, and would also be my own starting point going for a 10-wide.

My aim is not to setup a full layout but something like a workshop area in the future. The idea appeals to me!

Absolutely! Doing 10-wide for a diorama type piece makes perfect sense! Not having to deal with running on switches makes things much easier. As others have said, making large, to scale, drivers at 10-wide starts to get challenging.

In that same vein, you've seen big ben's wheels right?

[Ashi Valkoinen]

I created an ideology for my 8W trains.

LEGO train track gauge is 38 mm, but the distance between the edges of the train wheels are around 35-36 mm (due to this bogies can turn on sharp LEGO train track with less friction) and I use this 35-36 mm to scale for. With 8 stud wide trains we are around 1:41. which means 64-70 stud long passanger cars.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Ashi Valkoinen

[ronenson]

I build 6 wide. Above all, I prefer consistency with the official Lego models.

[Duq]

I had actually not meassured the gauge as such, and somebody told me it was 6 wide, but it is actually 5.

People say it's 6 wide because the rails 'cover' 6 studs; 1 for a rail, 4 in the middle and another one for the second rail. If you measure from the distance between the centres of the rails you get 5 studs or 40mm. Track gauge however is measured between the inner faces of the rails which would give you 38mm for Lego standard track or L-gauge. For standard gauge (1435mm) that gives 1:38. For meter gauge it's 1:26, for Irish gauge (1600mm) it's 1:42 and for Iberian gauge (1668mm) it's 1:44.