9V Extreme - Power Supply

[Haddock51]

Later this year, I will set up a large Lego Train 9V display at my home in Knivsta/Sweden.

The track can be summarized as follows:

* "Train climbing wall" (5,6 m wide and 1 m deep)

* 4 different levels:

Level -1: 50 cm above ground (mainly train yard)

Level 0: 90 cm a.g. (partially train yard)

Level +1: 205 cm a.g. (destination level with two electrically operated crossover-switches)

Level +2: 220 cm a.g. (Double High Speed Track)

* 2 ramps à 6 m (including 180 degree curves each) connecting level -1 and level 0 (inclination approx. 8 percent)

* 2 x 4 ramps à 6 m ( incl. 180 degree curves each) connecting level +1 and level 0 (inclination approx. 8 percent)

* 2 Altitude Adjustment Circles (360 degrees) connecting level +2 and level +1 (inclination approx. 8 percent)

* Double High Speed Track (2x25 m) with four 90 degree curves, whereof two inclined

* Total track length approx. 175 meters

* Requirement to run 3 trains independantly

* Most trains equipped with two 9V engines, Santa Fe and Horizon Express with 4 engines each

One of the major challenges will be power supply. I would appreciate any advice on this matter, particularly from those who have experience in building large tracks of similar size. Inclinations will certainly add to the complexity. Just linking up regular 9V transformers will probably require 15 - 20 transformers, which would certainly be a major challenge to operate ...

Edited February 20, 2013 by Haddock51

[Lazarus]

Could look at going DCC, i know you will need to put chips in motors but you can by layout boosters that will solve this issue.

[alainneke]

Could look at going DCC, i know you will need to put chips in motors but you can by layout boosters that will solve this issue.

DCC seems to be the way to go, especially with the requirement of running trains independently. Depending on how many train motors you are going to use at the same time, extra boosters may or may not be required. According to http://www.philohome.com/motors/motorcomp.htm, a 9V train motor draws about 380 mA (my dual-motor Horizon Express draws about 600 mA, so the motors have some headroom left), so a typical 4 Amps booster should be enough for 10 loaded motors.

Installing the decoders isn't very hard: I've done it numerous times and have yet to fail. Opening up the motors is also a great opportunity to clean and lubricate them.

As for pricing: a decoder is about 30 Euros, and a command station with internal booster will set you back a couple of 100 Euros. If you also want to remotely control your points and signals, you'll need stationary decoders as well.

Keep in mind that you will also need a bunch of connection wires for the tracks. With 175 meters, resistance is definitely going to be an issue, so using multiple connection wires (e.g. 1 every 10 meters) will keep your trains running smoothly.

For what it's worth, here's the equipment I'm using at the moment:

- decoders: Zimo mx630

- command station: ESU Ecos 2

- stationary decoders: Lenz LS150 and ESU SwitchPilot (with Extension)

Good luck with setting up and operating this huge display!

Edited February 20, 2013 by alainneke

[LEGO Guy Bri]

175 meters of track?! This will be huge, I can't wait to see this being built, especially how you'll handle the power distribution

[Androo]

I'm not sure how it would work with lego, but you can get DCC controls for a lot less than EUR 600 can't you? Like Roco or Bachmann ones...I'm not too up on DCC exactly because my HO railway is Maerklin (which I semi regret).

[Eigenbroetler]

this i want to see!

[alainneke]

I'm not sure how it would work with lego, but you can get DCC controls for a lot less than EUR 600 can't you? Like Roco or Bachmann ones...I'm not too up on DCC exactly because my HO railway is Maerklin (which I semi regret).

Sure you can, it all depends on what possibilities you're looking for... (thanks for pointing it out though; I edited my original post, as I don't want to scare off 'Haddock51')

Edited February 20, 2013 by alainneke

[Haddock51]

DCC seems to be the way to go, especially with the requirement of running trains independently. Depending on how many train motors you are going to use at the same time, extra boosters may or may not be required. According to http://www.philohome...s/motorcomp.htm, a 9V train motor draws about 380 mA (my dual-motor Horizon Express draws about 600 mA, so the motors have some headroom left), so a typical 4 Amps booster should be enough for 10 loaded motors.

Installing the decoders isn't very hard: I've done it numerous times and have yet to fail. Opening up the motors is also a great opportunity to clean and lubricate them.

As for pricing: a decoder is about 30 Euros, and a command station with internal booster will set you back a couple of 100 Euros. If you also want to remotely control your points and signals, you'll need stationary decoders as well.

Keep in mind that you will also need a bunch of connection wires for the tracks. With 175 meters, resistance is definitely going to be an issue, so using multiple connection wires (e.g. 1 every 10 meters) will keep your trains running smoothly.

For what it's worth, here's the equipment I'm using at the moment:

- decoders: Zimo mx630

- command station: ESU Ecos 2

- stationary decoders: Lenz LS150 and ESU SwitchPilot (with Extension)

Good luck with setting up and operating this huge display!

The DCC concept is new to me so I need to learn more about it. Any suggestion where I can find information for a "non-pro"?

The track will include 6 standard switches, 6 halfcurve switches and 4 crossover switches (whereof two operated electrically since they will be out of reach). Almost half of the switches are used for train yards on level 0 and level -1.

With these switches, I would be able to run 3 trains independantly without DCC, just using standard 9V trafos. To run more than 1 train will require more hands and more attention - especially for downhill operations! - so I would need assistance in such case. But I see no problem tu run one train myself from "basement" all the way up and all the way down again, a total length of more than 100 meters.

I looked at a "worst case scenario" using only 9V trafos. Using connection wires every 8 - 10 meters would require approx. 16 trafos (which I already have). These could be placed on a double shelf about mid-wall and grouped in a smart way.The key challenge are the 8 % inclinations from level 0 to level +1, a total one way length of approx. 20 meters. This would mean that you "follow" the train and use 3 - 4 trafos sequentially. Would that be enough to get the Horizon Express with 4 engines "all the way up to the top"? (On my previous display - see Brickshelf, DaRePo - with similar inclinations but shorter track length, I had no problem to get a 4 engine powered Santa Fe train all the way up to the hill using only 2 trafos simultaneously).

Once the train is at level +2 ( a plane high speed track) I could probably operate the train by managing 2-3 trafos simultaneously.

Probably cheaper, but will it work? I would certainly have to replace the connection wires with stronger wires since the distance from trafo to connection point will be somewhere between 2 - 6 meters, 4 trafos up to 10 meters.

To run trains on this display will require a driving license no matter which solution I choose ...

Edited February 21, 2013 by Haddock51

[UrbanErwin]

Some links on this topic

http://home.surewest.net/markril/lego/dcc/index.html

http://www.lgauge.com/trains/dcc/dcc.htm

[alainneke]

Some links on this topic

http://home.surewest.net/markril/lego/dcc/index.html

http://www.lgauge.com/trains/dcc/dcc.htm

... and some more...

General info:

http://www.dccwiki.com/Introduction_to_DCC

Decoder installation guide:

http://www.pluisje.nl/lego/

Accessory decoder installation (in French...):

http://www.freelug.org/spip.php?article616

Some nice features which might help you with this display:

- most (recent) DCC decoders offer Back EMF (cruise control) and will try to maintain steady speed going up- or downhill

- some command stations have multiple throttles (you can control two trains at once) and allow for additional wireless throttles. Lenz and ESU command stations are both supported by TouchCab and let you use an iPod or iPhone (or multiple, if you bring your friends) as wireless throttle

- some command stations are fitted with graphical screens and allow you to draw and control your layout (in multiple sheets, for multiple levels) on them. I LEGO-fied mine to even display the LEGO train depot images in the locomotive selection lists

Controlling everything with the 9V trafos should also work, but indeed requires you growing extra hands and eyes :) If you don't want to modify the track connection wires, you can connect them to the connector of a cut-through-half PF cable and solder some decent wiring on the other side.

Edited February 21, 2013 by alainneke

[peterab]

I looked at a "worst case scenario" using only 9V trafos. Using connection wires every 8 - 10 meters would require approx. 16 trafos (which I already have).

You don't really need all these transformers. You can eliminate a lot of them by using multiple connections from a single transformer (or two for the four engined trains) to the track to overcome resistance, instead of connecting a whole new transformer.

You only really need separate transformers where you need independent control.

As an example you might use one transformer on each of your high speed loops, but connect them on opposite sides of the loop (across the skinny part so you minimise the length of extension wire used). In effect wherever the train is it's always no more than 5 meters away from the nearest transformer connection.

[Haddock51]

You don't really need all these transformers. You can eliminate a lot of them by using multiple connections from a single transformer (or two for the four engined trains) to the track to overcome resistance, instead of connecting a whole new transformer.

You only really need separate transformers where you need independent control.

As an example you might use one transformer on each of your high speed loops, but connect them on opposite sides of the loop (across the skinny part so you minimise the length of extension wire used). In effect wherever the train is it's always no more than 5 meters away from the nearest transformer connection.

How many multiple connections can you use at most for a single transformer? Are there specific devices for multiple connection of such tiny wires?

I believe the double high speed track is probably the easiest part, two transformers with 5-6 connections for each track.

But the question mark remains re. the inclinations. Would two transformers with 5 connections be enough to pull up a 4 engine powered Horizon Express 20 meters from level 0 to level +1?

I probably need 4 separate transformers for independant control.

... and some more...

General info:

http://www.dccwiki.c...oduction_to_DCC

Decoder installation guide:

http://www.pluisje.nl/lego/

Accessory decoder installation (in French...):

http://www.freelug.o....php?article616

Some nice features which might help you with this display:

- most (recent) DCC decoders offer Back EMF (cruise control) and will try to maintain steady speed going up- or downhill

- some command stations have multiple throttles (you can control two trains at once) and allow for additional wireless throttles. Lenz and ESU command stations are both supported by TouchCab and let you use an iPod or iPhone (or multiple, if you bring your friends) as wireless throttle

- some command stations are fitted with graphical screens and allow you to draw and control your layout (in multiple sheets, for multiple levels) on them. I LEGO-fied mine to even display the LEGO train depot images in the locomotive selection lists

Controlling everything with the 9V trafos should also work, but indeed requires you growing extra hands and eyes :) If you don't want to modify the track connection wires, you can connect them to the connector of a cut-through-half PF cable and solder some decent wiring on the other side.

Having read the pro´s and con´s re. LDCC, I am not so convinced that the pro´s overweigh the con´s in this case. There will be no need to operate multiple trains on the same track. No need to send signals to other units or switches. In fact, the layout is so complex - with some substantial risks as well given the high altitude and a number of narrow 180 degree curves - which require full attention and focus on the unit that is running the track with inclinations - especially downhill! To run a separate train on the second high speed track is not such a big challenge. Neither to run a third unit on a separate track between level -1 and level 0.

In addition, I have now 50 9V engines and I really would like to operate all train units on this new track. Installing 50 decoders in 50 engines...? At what cost - and with what benefit?

... and some more...

General info:

http://www.dccwiki.c...oduction_to_DCC

Decoder installation guide:

http://www.pluisje.nl/lego/

Accessory decoder installation (in French...):

http://www.freelug.o....php?article616

Some nice features which might help you with this display:

- most (recent) DCC decoders offer Back EMF (cruise control) and will try to maintain steady speed going up- or downhill

- some command stations have multiple throttles (you can control two trains at once) and allow for additional wireless throttles. Lenz and ESU command stations are both supported by TouchCab and let you use an iPod or iPhone (or multiple, if you bring your friends) as wireless throttle

- some command stations are fitted with graphical screens and allow you to draw and control your layout (in multiple sheets, for multiple levels) on them. I LEGO-fied mine to even display the LEGO train depot images in the locomotive selection lists

Controlling everything with the 9V trafos should also work, but indeed requires you growing extra hands and eyes :) If you don't want to modify the track connection wires, you can connect them to the connector of a cut-through-half PF cable and solder some decent wiring on the other side.

I forgot to ask you about your comment regarding serving 9V engines and lubrication. Do you need a special lubricant for these kind of engines?

Some of my engines are more than 15 years old and really should be served.

this i want to see!

Where do you live in Sweden?

Are you a member of Swebrick?

Edited February 21, 2013 by Haddock51

[alainneke]

Equipping 50 9V train motors with a decoder is indeed a bit over the top... However, I've seen some people installing the decoders inside their trains (as opposed to inside the 9V motor bogie) and connecting them with a NEM connector. This way, the decoders can be moved around and are only required for the trains currently running.

For lubrication, I use 'Trix Modellbahn Spezialfett' (article 66626). Just applying a little to the plastic gears will keep things running smoothly.

Edited February 22, 2013 by alainneke

[rebelego]

I would also recommend DCC. I use LokSound decoders which adds sound to the engines, but 50 LokSound decoders will be quite expensive.

With DCC you may also automate the whole layout with software like Rocrail, etc.

For lubrication I use white lithium grease. Also used on axles, pins and rods to make my steam engines run smooth.

[Lazarus]

I have a digitrax think Z control, its a command station and can power track. Cost about $150us, it cant have walk around controllers and is not capable of controlling anything like lights or point motors no DC output just track power. you would need a booster also for this amount of track and they are about the same cost but one would do the job.

Also if you go DCC you could just buy a digitrax command station and a digitrax PR3 and you can control your layout from your PC what would be good for a large layout and lots of trains. The digitrax system is very good and adaptable and easy to add on things like stationary decoders due to there loco net setup.

[Eigenbroetler]

Where do you live in Sweden?

Are you a member of Swebrick?

I live about 70km from skövde.

not a member of swebrick. just found my way out of the dark ages,

[peterab]

How many multiple connections can you use at most for a single transformer?

In theory there is no limit, in practice the connectors stacked on the back of the 9V controller become quite high and likely to be knocked off after a while. 5 is fine.

Are there specific devices for multiple connection of such tiny wires?

We use the standard 9V track connectors http://www.bricklink.com/catalogItem.asp?P=5306c01, and extension wires http://www.bricklink.com/catalogItem.asp?P=5306bc162

If the distance you need to cover is really long you can also use thicker wire (less resistance), we used the connectors off a short extension wire to build a couple of 11 meter wires.

I believe the double high speed track is probably the easiest part, two transformers with 5-6 connections for each track.

You probably only need two connections each, but more won't hurt.

But the question mark remains re. the inclinations. Would two transformers with 5 connections be enough to pull up a 4 engine powered Horizon Express 20 meters from level 0 to level +1?

As long as the two transformers can pull the train up part of the incline, it should work the whole way if the distance between connections is short enough. 20/5 = 4m should be no problem at all. We normally see no effects of track resistance until over 10m. It would most likely be fine with just two connections, maybe 3 for safety.

Having fewer transformers means it's easier to react to problems too, just turn both off.

I probably need 4 separate transformers for independant control.

And if you're going to run 4 motor trains, you need to have two transformers in parallel for each block, so 8 transformers in total. To control the train you just turn both controllers in synch.

[Haddock51]

In theory there is no limit, in practice the connectors stacked on the back of the 9V controller become quite high and likely to be knocked off after a while. 5 is fine.

We use the standard 9V track connectors http://www.bricklink...m.asp?P=5306c01, and extension wires http://www.bricklink...asp?P=5306bc162

If the distance you need to cover is really long you can also use thicker wire (less resistance), we used the connectors off a short extension wire to build a couple of 11 meter wires.

You probably only need two connections each, but more won't hurt.

As long as the two transformers can pull the train up part of the incline, it should work the whole way if the distance between connections is short enough. 20/5 = 4m should be no problem at all. We normally see no effects of track resistance until over 10m. It would most likely be fine with just two connections, maybe 3 for safety.

Having fewer transformers means it's easier to react to problems too, just turn both off.

And if you're going to run 4 motor trains, you need to have two transformers in parallel for each block, so 8 transformers in total. To control the train you just turn both controllers in synch.

What do you mean by turning two controllers in synch? Somebody from the US once told me that this is not possible.

[Haddock51]

What do you mean by turning two controllers in synch? Somebody from the US once told me that this is not possible.

Going the traditional 9V way would result in 9 transformers with 4 multiple connections each, so in total 36 connections (2x2 trafos for the High Speed tracks, 1 trafo for each inclination between level 0 and level +1 (approx. 2x20 m) that can be combined with 1 trafo for level 0, and 2 trafos for level -1 and inclinations between level 0 and level -1 (2x6 m). This would also allow to run 3 trains independantly (with assistance!)

I would probably use loudspeaker wires (2x1,5 mm) to extend the connection wires. Some of them could be as much as 15 meters long.

I am also considering to solder some connections directly on the rails, e.g. all connections along the High Speed track. Any advice on how this should be fused?

[Bamos]

Haddock51

There is no difference between any other gauge of model railroading and L gauge Railroading. I would get a book on wiring either the old controller and block system or the new DCC system.

If you are running only 3 trains with the old system then you only need 3 controllers one control should not be overloaded with 4 motor trains. But your layout will have to be made into 3 blocks or sections with insulated joints between them or the controllers will short against each other which will at the least stop your railroad or can cause fried motors and melted track connections.

If you can find a DCC system that outputs 9 volts you only need one command station and maybe one booster. If you want to follow your trains you will need another throttle per person/train

Also the problem with LEGO track is the connections between the tracks. It loses power from section to section so you need more connections. On My HO layout I placed a connection every 3 Feet or one meter.

Bill

Edited February 22, 2013 by Bamos

[peterab]

What do you mean by turning two controllers in synch? Somebody from the US once told me that this is not possible.

'Somebody from the US' sounds like an expert Of course I'm also just someone from Australia. Here's a video of the club layout that I contributed to where we use some of these techniques;

As far as we know this is the biggest layout ever built in the southern hemisphere.

You need to connect the two controllers to the track close to each other and with the same polarity (each controller should make a motor move the same direction when turned the same way). By turning them in sync I mean you should make sure both controllers are set close to the same positions at all times. You will cause a short circuit if you have the in opposite directions for example, but you will also put unnecessary strain on them if they are not set at the same speed.

The reason this is helpful for a four motor train is the standard controller is able to put out about 1A at 9V from memory. Each motor draws about 300mA at 9V. Four motors draw about 1.2A which is more than a single controller can deliver, the result is you can overheat your transformer and your trains wont run with full power. By adding an extra controller in parallel you add more current solving both potential problems.

[Bamos]

I think that volts and amps are being confused here. The volts to the track should not exceed 9.6 however amps are what determines how many motors you can run.

I don’t know the LEGO controls specs but a Bachmann basic DCC set produces about 1 amp which will run maybe 3 to 5 trains depending on consumption ( not all motors are same even from the same company). If you were to add DCC booster the voltage is the same but the amps increase allowing you to run more trains.

EDIT Also cotrollers for model railroads are 12 volts and can spike up to 16 volts. so you have to limit the voltage to the track.

Bill

Edited February 23, 2013 by Bamos

[Locomotive Annie]

That's a great video clip Peterab. I particularly liked the station.

[peterab]

I think that volts and amps are being confused here.

Not by me.

The volts to the track should not exceed 9.6 however amps are what determines how many motors you can run.

I don’t know the LEGO controls specs but a Bachmann basic DCC set produces about 1 amp...

The LEGO 9V controller has a max output of 9VA which is about 1A at maximum speed (9V).

which will run maybe 3 to 5 trains depending on consumption ( not all motors are same even from the same company).

This is not true for LEGO trains with four motors. Each motor draws about 300mA at top speed, which means a four motor train requires 1.2 A, which leads to my recommendation of two controllers in parallel for each section.

[alainneke]

If you can find a DCC system that outputs 9 volts you only need one command station and maybe one booster. If you want to follow your trains you will need another throttle per person/train

The output voltage of the boosters doesn't matter. You can configure the decoders to limit the output voltage of (some of) its motor- and function outputs. The motor output can even maintain this voltage regardless of the track voltage (e.g. when the voltage on the track changes because of different load, the decoders will still output 9V to the motors). You're also not limited to 1 voltage, so connecting a 12V lightbulb to a 9V motor on a 15V track is no problem :)

Edited February 23, 2013 by alainneke