Studless vs. Studful

[timslegos]

Hi,

I'm tim and i"m new to the forums. I am an avid builder of legos myself, and i have been realizing a trend lately, no one builds stud-full anymore . All of my MOCs so far have been all or mostly stud-full ( Brickshelf Gallery and youtube: youtube.com/timslegos ), and i have a very hard time building in stud-less. Do you have any advice for learning how to build in stud-less?

thanks

tim

Edited July 14, 2011 by timr

[Nazgarot]

Hi,

I'm tim and i"m new to the forums. I am an avid builder of legos myself, and i have been realizing a trend lately, no one builds stud-full anymore . All of my MOCs so far have been all or mostly stud-full ( Brickshelf Gallery and youtube: youtube.com/timslegos ), and i have a very hard time building in stud-less. Do you have any advice for learning how to build in stud-less?

thanks

tim

Well... When I got back out of my dark-age (back to Lego) I bought a few advanced set, and built them to learn new techniques. I would recommend these sets: 8275 Bulldozer, 8043 Excavator and 8070 supercar. Those have a lot of advanced studless building techniques in them, and are great for learning. You may even learn a lot from reading building instructions (I've red almost every instruction available on the official Lego pages).

It may also help a lot to test build things in a CAD software of some kind. I can recommend LDraw and SR3D, but Legos official CAD program, LDD, isn't to bad either. LDD actually has an extended mode that can be activated in a setup file. You can read a lot more of that in the forum, just search for "LDD Extended".

Hope this can help you on your way.

PS: I like your models. Not many still building studed, advanced models on that scale.

-ED-

[Sariel]

What you mean "no one"? There are dozen of Technic builders out there who successfully combine studless and studfull systems, like e.g. Andrea Grazi, Eric Leppen or Pedro Agnelo, or me. Exhibit A:

[Anio]

no one builds stud-full anymore

That's because studless is vastly superior.

It is cheaper on BL for example, you can build easily in all directions, and in a very compact way.

Stufull is only better when you need a lot of sturdiness. For instance, for a crane which is 2 meters long or more.

If you want to buy studless models, I advise to buy models of the same colors (yellow for example).

At the beginning, when you have few parts you will appreciate them to be all of the same color.

For the Technic theme, I really do not advise to design your models on a 3D soft.

It is very very likely that what you designed does not work in reality.

Building in studless requires to understand the spirit of the studless.

For example, in studless, it is highly recommended to build with odd legnth. But that's only one very basic rule.

You can look at many building instructions to see how things are made.

And obviously, building with actual studless bricks helps a lot.

[Sokratesz]

That's because studless is vastly superior.

That's your opinion and I would appreciate it if you presented it that way.

I like studs better, it has more of a 'LEGO' look, and less of the big shiny plastic toy feel.

- Sok.

Edited July 14, 2011 by Sokratesz

[Anio]

That's your opinion and I would appreciate it if you presented it that way.

No. It is not my opinion. It is a fact. Studless if much superior in term of building techniques and compacity.

As for the overall look of the construction (and here I give my personnal opinion), I generally prefer studless models with "suggested" lines.

Edited July 14, 2011 by Anio

[Erik Leppen]

No. It is not my opinion. It is a fact.

No it is not. It is opinion.

If studless was factually superior, then why are all other Lego themes studded?

> Because it depends on your goals.

Exactly. Studless is better for things that need to be compact or very three-dimensional (e.g. this). Studded is better for things that need to be strong (e.g. this).

So don't go around saying studless is factually better, because it isn't. It's suitable for different things than studded building. And that is fact ;)

[Anio]

If studless was factually superior, then why are all other Lego themes studded?

I'm obviously speaking about the Technic theme. --'

[Sokratesz]

If there were a benchmark that all those involved agreed on that studded and studless could be tested to, and it conclusively proved that either was superior over the other under the circumstances dictated by that benchmark, then you could say something like that as 'fact'.

Until then, it's your opinion, and you should present it like that. Imagine an outsider searching for something LEGO related and stumbling upon your post. He could well be left with a very wrong impression based on a single sentence that you posted without regard for accuracy.

- Sok.

I'm obviously speaking about the Technic theme. --'

Apparently it wasn't that obvious, now was it?

Edited July 14, 2011 by Sokratesz

[Sariel]

Totally agree with Sokratesz, you should not present your personal opinion as an absolute truth. Especially if the topic is studless Technic building and you're a studfull Star Wars builder.

[Nazgarot]

Not to cause any more heated discussion, but the thread starter obviously says that no one builds studed any more, and I think that is correct, as most people combine studless with studed. His models seems to be mostly studed, and he wanted help to learn to build studless, so lets help him, and not kill him for formulating a sentence badly and not choosing the best name for the thread.

I agree that it might help to buy a few sets in the same color to get started, and just remembered one more set that I would recommend; the 8069 Backhoe loader. It's a great sett that includes a lot of smart solution in studless technique, and it also has quite a few helpful parts like the mini linear actuator. There is even a

by NXTLiftBoy to make it fully remote, and he has made instructions to =D.

Good luck with building studless, and combining like most of us do from time to time!

[Anio]

Especially if the topic is studless Technic building and you're a studfull Star Wars builder.

Again : I'm speaking in the Technic theme.

I thought it was clear, when I was talking of a 2 meters long crane, etc.

it depends on your goals.

If I build studful UCS models (with studful internal structures for the cruisers), it's a proof I understand that studded parts may be better sometimes, no ?

Edited July 14, 2011 by Anio

[le60head]

Hey Guys!

I think this is a very good question raised here.

According to my understanding, the main thing one should consider when building a studded or a studless construction is that studless bricks have a square profile.

That means, that their width and height is the same, so you can position them as you see fit.

For ex. you can place one beam with holes facing upwards and u can position another one next to it with the holes facing to the side. Then u have to connect them with other parts ofcourse ;)

That does however make your construction a little bit flimsy i guess.

When building with studded beams, you can place them one on top of the other, or cross-connect them. You also often need plates to place inbetween the bricks. They give less flexibility i guess, and are a bit more limiting in their use.

I cannot say which type of bricks i prefer. I completely support the statement made by Erik Leppen: The bricks you should use depend on your goals.

I personally find myself using both studded and studless bricks, for different applications ofcourse.

[Sariel]

Again : I'm speaking in the Technic theme.

Well, maybe that's the problem. I don't see how your expertise in SW models translates into profound understanding of Technic building, just like I don't try to teach people how to build SW models just because I have some grasp of Technic building.

No offense, but between your opinion and Eric's I will always choose Eric's because he actually builds Technic. You don't.

[Ape Fight]

Well I build in both. A lot of people say 'too many studs' on my studded models, but one of them definitely looks better 'full-stud' (studs in all directions). I'm not what you call a good builder though, so the opinions of the famous AFOLs carry more weight - e.g Ralph S, who also uses both : )

[DLuders]

Do you have any advice for learning how to build in stud-less?

Tim, welcome to Eurobricks! To answer your question, I would recommend downloading a few Building Instructions of various Technic sets, and seeing how the various parts go together. The official Lego Technic Building webpage has PDF instructions of recent Technic sets. Once you flip through the pages and see the 3-dimensional, inside-out method of studless Technic building, you can learn how the various parts can fit together.

The Lego Technic Index (a "pinned" topic at the top of this Eurobricks forum) has lots of useful information. If you scroll down to "Notable Technic MOCs", you will see many creations made by members of this forum. Many of them have Building Instructions too.

You just need a bit of knowledge, and then try your hand at studless Technic building. Over time, you will gain experience. If it were easy, everyone would be doing it! Technic is regarded as being one of the most difficult Lego themes to master.

Edited July 14, 2011 by DLuders

[Paul Boratko]

I have been building studless for awhile now, but I still appreciate studded building more... I just try to stay up to date with all of the new parts... Studless like Studded has it advantages and disadvantages...

I also still think the general public and new people that get into building are having a tough time grasping what exactly studless parts even are... I did a Lego Kid's fest in Pittsburgh a few weeks ago and had quite a few people questioning the integrity of my models claiming that I was using outside products like Kinex and Megabloks...

Studless parts certainly are much easier to clean, that is for sure...

Edited July 14, 2011 by Paul Boratko

[Lasse D]

@Ape Fight

You not a good builder? You MOCs on MOCPages would beg to differ.

I would rather ask OP what he is intending to build just be be sure that recommending a liftarm type construction would be a good idea.

If you want to make a Model Team looking creation (like the tow truck posted above), then liftarms might not be the way to go.

Edited July 14, 2011 by Lasse D

[timslegos]

What you mean "no one"? There are dozen of Technic builders out there who successfully combine studless and studfull systems, like e.g. Andrea Grazi, Eric Leppen or Pedro Agnelo, or me. Exhibit A:

Well sorry i guess i over stated with "no one" haha. And Sariel your tow truck is a beautiful example of a perfect mostly studded tow truck, one which i replicated myself Pictures.

I have plenty of stud-less lego kits, but i find the hardest part to be when i can envision something working, but i don't know how to translate it into the stud-less building system. So i guess the only way to fix that is to keep building and practice?

Edited July 14, 2011 by timr

[Ape Fight]

@Ape Fight

You not a good builder? You MOCs on MOCPages would beg to differ.

Thanks Lasse However, compared to some of the awesome builders here, I don't think my builds really stand out!

Anyway, to the original post - Plenty of a.w.e.s.o.m.e builders DO use studs as well as studless, but I guess it is going out of fashion in the Lego community a bit. I say, help bring studs back!!

[Ralph_S]

Whenever this topic pops up in this forum, Lego Technic, Mindstorms & Model Team, we always seem to have two different discussions at the same time. Studless technic vs. studded Technic is a very different discussion from studless models vs. studded models, IMO. The latter seems primarily an aesthetic choice, whereas the former is a choice about functionality and structural strength.

I'm not a keen Technic builder, but I grew up with the old school studded Technic beams. They're something I can easily wrap my head around using and are very suitable for being combined with normal system elements, which is something I tend to do in my models. However, I've built some sub-structures (for the drivetrains of a few Power Functions RC models I've built in the last few years) and it does seem easier to build very compact structures.

When it comes to the look of my models, I prefer to show some studs. I couldn't build certain shapes if I'd insist on studless building (thin wings, carious types of curved surfaces etc), but I also like how the studs emphasise that my models are LEGO, so even when I make elements of a model that I could build studless without too much effort, I don't.

So, how do you learn building studless? I believe that the best way to properly learn any technique is simply trying it yourself, and not giving up if you're not happy with the end result. If you keep practicing, it will get easier.

Cheers,

Ralph

Edited July 14, 2011 by Ralph_S

[Bricksonwheels]

As soon as i discovered the studless approach and got more and more bricks, i found out that it really fits me. From then on i decided to really go as studless as possible.

That doesn't mean it is a 'fixed' design thing but it just fits my personal approach to Lego building best, and i truly like the looks of it. It is a really personal thing, as i like other styles from fellow builders too, like my Lego buddy Ralphs .

I think that everybody should let their building creativity work where it works best. Try and find out, and get nspired by other builders who all do different things.

Here is an example an almost fully studless moc with about 11000 bricks.

Edited July 14, 2011 by Bricksonwheels

[Meatman]

Bricksonwheels

That is more SNOT(Studs Not On Top) I think this topic is more on Studded Technic Parts Vs Studless Technic Parts.

I feel that studless technic building is more difficult than studded where as you can just add or subtract a plate to make things work. Studless seems like it requires more planing. I am no expert builder by any means so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

Edited July 14, 2011 by Meatman

[merman]

Bricksonwheels

That is more SNOT(Studs Not On Top) I think this topic is more on Studded Technic Parts Vs Studless Technic Parts.

I feel that studless technic building is more difficult than studded where as you can just add or subtract a plate to make things work. Studless seems like it requires more planing. I am no expert builder by any means so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

So with that idea in mind, we might say studless building is far more interesting and fun?

It is in fact more complex and versatile...

The studded building was a lot about putting plates on bricks...

[timslegos]

I say, help bring studs back!!

Yes i like your idea!

Edited July 14, 2011 by timr