Kanohi Discussion Topic

[Brickthing]

Since in-depth multi-paragraph debates about the pros and cons of different masks are appearing in unrelated topics, I've moved all of the posts here.

Any discussion about Kanohi and similar head-gear can go here, unless it's related to Bionicle 2010 or Hero Factory, then it can go in the pinned topics.

Keep it clean.

[dviddy]

About your comment on the Toa Mata looking more like something LEGO would produce-- they certainly didn't give me that impression when I first saw teasers! In 2001 I was very skeptical about the weird, smooth mask designs. This gives me sort of the same impression, except the armor matches the smoothness of the "masks" and helps to conceal the "building toy" feel.

The smooth and simple mask designs are what make the 2001 masks, by far, still the best looking of all of them. The other masks just lacked the elegance and character that was so inherent in 2001's Kanohi.

[Zarkan]

Thank God.

Typical, since you were like the only one who replied to that entry and didn't like it. If you ask me though, it's hard to discredit bonesiii when he makes some of the best vector art on BZP - in Powerpoint, of all things. Tell me with a straight face that you didn't think his coolified kanohi were, well, cool.

The smooth and simple mask designs are what make the 2001 masks, by far, still the best looking of all of them. The other masks just lacked the elegance and character that was so inherent in 2001's Kanohi.

Character? You mean like how the same twelve masks were used on every character in 2001, which robbed them of their uniqueness? As opposed to much later masks, which actually had an elemntal flair rather than being super smooth and unidentifiable with any particular character or element? As opposed to Bara Magna, where almost every character got a unqiue mask that was very detailed and fit their personality?

Nope, sorry, still not seeing why 2001 owns all other years.

Edited January 21, 2010 by Grevious

[~Wrack'n'Ruin~]

Grevious, what the hell does Vector Art skill have to do with anything else? And honestly bonesiii's masks are boring and overdone.

[Zarkan]

Grevious, what the hell does Vector Art skill have to do with anything else? And honestly bonesiii's masks are boring and overdone.

Simple - if a person knows how to make good art, he no doubt has at least a decent sense of artistic style. Seriously, how is that anywhere hard to understand - and more importantly, how are Bonesii's masks boring in any way? With all the ones he's made, I'm sure you could find at least a few you like, especially since they're extremely varried.

But this is really off topic. To get back to what we were taking about, keep in mind that my previous post was in no means an outright disaproval of the 2001 Kanohi. Seriously, I love them just as much as anyone, but for different reasons. Simple and elegant they may be, but it's hard for me to see any true personality in them when "personality" to me generally indicates that there's something unique about them that portrays the personality of the character identified with them. The problem is, when you have a mask like the original Hau worn by characters with completely opposite personalites (Ie. Tahu Mata and Jaller), that kind of muddies the waters a bit.

That's why I appreciate later masks just as much. While the 2001 mask were good basic designs that are amazing for MOCing, later masks like some of the Mahri's and practically every 2009 mask are a lot more unique when compared with each other. When I see a Hau, I don't particularly identify it with any character or element, but when I see Malum's helmet, I see a fiery warior with an antagonistic pesonality. And yet, at the same time, while I see the fiery part in Raanu and Ackar's masks, I also see different personalities. Raanu's looks something like a Hau with flames coming out of it, which suggests a noble personality, while Ackar's extremely small and uncovering helmet suggests that he is such an experienced fighter that he doesn't need to hide behind a metal face.

Heck, I think the reason Bara Magna's helemts have so much more character-acurate personality in them is because they are tied to the individual beings, rather than special masks powers. In that sense, 2001's masks fit their actual powers a lot better than they do their characters - the Akaku has multiple eyes, for example, and the Kaukau looks like a diving mask. But honestly, I'd much rather have masks that match the character rather than a specific power - which is something that is reflected in the official artwork for my current Bionicle fan-fiction. In my Bionicle-esque world, every single character that wears a mask has a unique one, and I've tried as hard as possible to make the designs match the personalities of the characters themselves. Trust me, it's not easy to come up with 20+ mask designs that all work with my characters while not having them look too similar to each other. In that sense, I envy Bonesiii, who is able to come up with a nearly limitless number of unique mask designs without ever losing his artistic touch.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that I prefer mask designs that emphasize the character and their element, and I've never really seen much of either in the 2001 masks. But, even if you don't agree with me on that, that doesn't mean that the Hero Factory masks are automatically win. Because, really, I can't see them comparing to most of Bionicle's good mask designs, whether they're from 2001 or 2009. These just seem... boring. They're almost completely devoid of any real personality, IMO, whether that means looking like their elements, mirroring their character, or something else. They look like generic robots, nothing else.

Edited January 21, 2010 by Grevious

[~Wrack'n'Ruin~]

imple - if a person knows how to make good art, he no doubt has at least a decent sense of artistic style

Bones-eye-eye-eye's ideas of style involve sharp edges, thin lines, and sucking all the fun out of the masks. Just look at his Calix, it looks nothing like it should. Just because he likes them and calls them cool, doesn't mean it should matter to the rest of us. Especially when it's a master of vague-arities like Bones-ay-ay-captain.

[Zarkan]

Bones-eye-eye-eye's ideas of style involve sharp edges, thin lines, and sucking all the fun out of the masks. Just look at his Calix, it looks nothing like it should. Just because he likes them and calls them cool, doesn't mean it should matter to the rest of us. Especially when it's a master of vague-arities like Bones-ay-ay-captain.

I fail to see what is wrong with sharp edges and thin lines, or how using those suck all the fun out of the masks. And seriously, the Calix is probably the absolute worst example to back up your statement, IMO, since the original looked like a female alien on vodka (hence the huge circles around the eyes). Plus, Bonesiii specifically said that the Inika masks he drew were "normalfied" versions of the original (not coolified), since the official set versions were already nearly as complex as some of the masks he has made. Just not nearly as good.

Edited January 21, 2010 by Grevious

[~Wrack'n'Ruin~]

I fail to see what is wrong with sharp edges and thin lines, or how using those suck all the fun out of the masks. And seriously, the Calix is probably the absolute worst example to back up your statement, IMO, since the original looked like a female alien on vodka (hence the huge circles around the eyes). Plus, Bonesiii specifically said that the Inika masks he drew were "normalfied" versions of the original (not coolified), since the official set versions were already nearly as complex as some of the masks he has made. Just not nearly as good.

It's called opinion, which is exactly the thing you're using to justify the use of Bones/

To put a cap on this, Grevious, you consistently come back and pull the same old thing every time something new comes along. I believe we're still waiting for your reply to Darth Vader in the old storyline critique thread. Not to mention you didn't like the Glatorian last year at unveiling, and didn't like the phantoka before that. I can't take your opinions seriously because of what I've seen of you.

What are we even talking about? Aesthetics involving masks for toys. Why do people even argue about this?

Returning to Hero Factory, I think the masks are much cooler then say, the old 2001-2003 masks, but I don't think they're as interesting stylistically as the Toa Inika.

Still, look at William. His looks like a visor-type thing. The blue guy's head is great, absolutely great.

[dviddy]

Typical, since you were like the only one who replied to that entry and didn't like it. If you ask me though, it's hard to discredit bonesiii when he makes some of the best vector art on BZP - in Powerpoint, of all things. Tell me with a straight face that you didn't think his coolified kanohi were, well, cool.

Character? You mean like how the same twelve masks were used on every character in 2001, which robbed them of their uniqueness? As opposed to much later masks, which actually had an elemntal flair rather than being super smooth and unidentifiable with any particular character or element? As opposed to Bara Magna, where almost every character got a unqiue mask that was very detailed and fit their personality?

Nope, sorry, still not seeing why 2001 owns all other years.

Bonesiii's vector art is fantastic for what it is. But no, I don't like his coolified Kanohi. I think they did indeed sap all the life out of them. I extend this thought even into his coolified Glatorian helmets. Gresh's especially lost everything that made the set version the best helmet of the first wave, for me.

I don't define character by uniqueness, but by how the masks themselves emit personality. The original Hau is stern, which fit both Tahu and Jaller. The Kaukau is smooth and blank, leaving Gali with a peaceful and also decidedly aquatic look. The Miru is not only grinning madly, but is also shaped to evoke Lewa's (original) youth and also his sarcastic personality. The Akakau lends Kopaka his icey and stoic personality. Kopaka with a Miru would not have looked cool and calculating. Etc.

I mean, for crying out loud, the Hau has a browline!

Also, I don't want masks affiliated with an environment unless they are an environmental mask. If a mask has a flame motif, it sure as hell better be a mask of fire. Otherwise, it seems completely useless to me. As the original Kanohi were supposed to be generic, and everyone had a copy of the six Great masks, to have a mask that was identifiable as a mask belonging solely to a fiery being would have been counter-productive. The Kaukau works because it was a diving mask, and the power granted the ability to breathe underwater.

The detailed masks, to the one, were lacking in that character and personality that gave the original lineup their awesomeness. Jaller Mahri's mask was the absolute worst Kanohi I have ever seen. The Olmak was giant and also too busy.

Plus, just throwing this out there, but Bonesiii's affinity for vector art doesn't mean his aesthetic tastes are any more significant to mine, someone who expresses their artistic talents through MOCs, photography, writing, and yes, pencil art (no one has really seen it because I don't do BIONICLE art).

Which, relates back to why I am enjoying the aesthetic quality of these new HF sets. They're smooth, streamlined, and look all the better for it. Gone are the frustrating and unnecessary textures that just created more difficult-to-mold pieces. Gone are the extremely frustratingly busy torso designs (Piraka, cough cough). And I think that, for being so full of lines and shapes, these helmets have actual character most of the masks of the past years, as I've just explained, lacked.

[Darkness Falls]

I believe Ackar's recolored Berix Helmet and Malum's Helmet are two masks that greatly represent fire, in my opinion. Malum's lends a lot to his character- it has that alien grin shape similar to the Miru.

Vader has a point- however, there are masks that I find to be more effective at displaying the elements than the Mata's. Nokama's Metru Mask, for example, was feminine, peaceful, and aquatic all at the same time.

[Zarkan]

Bonesiii's vector art is fantastic for what it is. But no, I don't like his coolified Kanohi. I think they did indeed sap all the life out of them. I extend this thought even into his coolified Glatorian helmets. Gresh's especially lost everything that made the set version the best helmet of the first wave, for me.

Well, even he said that he didn't like that one as much as some of the other ones, and I agreed with him on that. But seriously, I don't get how his masks sucked the life out of the Kanohi. Is there a particular reason why you feel this way?

don't define character by uniqueness, but by how the masks themselves emit personality. The original Hau is stern, which fit both Tahu and Jaller. The Kaukau is smooth and blank, leaving Gali with a peaceful and also decidedly aquatic look. The Miru is not only grinning madly, but is also shaped to evoke Lewa's (original) youth and also his sarcastic personality. The Akakau lends Kopaka his icey and stoic personality. Kopaka with a Miru would not have looked cool and calculating. Etc.

See, when I think of Jaller and Tahu, I don't think of similarly "stern" personalities, I think of how the former is extremely calm and collected, while the latter is a hothead. Problem is, that hau is used on both of them, and I don't really identify it with either one of them as much as I identify, say, Malum's helmet with Malum.

Also, I don't want masks affiliated with an environment unless they are an environmental mask. If a mask has a flame motif, it sure as hell better be a mask of fire. Otherwise, it seems completely useless to me. As the original Kanohi were supposed to be generic, and everyone had a copy of the six Great masks, to have a mask that was identifiable as a mask belonging solely to a fiery being would have been counter-productive. The Kaukau works because it was a diving mask, and the power granted the ability to breathe underwater.

Perhaps that's why I've never liked the whole mask hunting storyline as much as other people. Personally, if TLC had never made masks packs and instead made unique masks for the Toa and Mctoran, I would have prefered the original Toa's Kanohi to all be tailored more specifically to their unique elements and personalities. Since Tahu is typically portrayed as a hothead, for example, making his Kanohi just a bit more ferocious would sit well with me. Actually, perhaps the Toa's masks could have simply been slightly different or more elemental versions of the Tohunga's kanohi, rather than exact copies of each other. That IMO would really help give make the original Toa more distinct, and would also emphasize how they are the only ones on Mata Nui who have elemental powers.

The detailed masks, to the one, were lacking in that character and personality that gave the original lineup their awesomeness. Jaller Mahri's mask was the absolute worst Kanohi I have ever seen. The Olmak was giant and also too busy.

See, this I don't really understand at all. From the moment I saw Jaller Mahri's mask, I was completely in love with it, as it did something that no previous Fire Toa mask had done before. In contrast to the original Hau, the Hau nuva, the Great Huna, etc, it actually looked like fire, thanks to the beautiful dual-layered coloring. In the same way, however, since it didn't have actual fire-like patterns on it (which the Glatoran helmets had) it signified that Jaller was much calmer and more controled than the average fire Toa. It confounds me how anyone can say that it's "the absoluite worst Kanohi ever, when there have been so many worse ones in my mind (Kongu, Halhi, and Jaller Inika's, the Garai and Tryna, Gali Mistika's, etc).

I think what I'm getting here is that some people on Eurobricks seem to have a mindset where "simple" > "complex," and that "complex" never = elegant. And I don't really understand this, because I've always had the belief that "what works best for the character" > "any single design style," and that Bionicle is, to put in bonesiii's words, "ruthless elegance." What I mean is, Bionicle's true strength is that it stands apart from the rest of Lego by using complex and more detailed parts than simple bricks. Things like the ridges, sharp points, and deep textures give the feeling of more sophisticated designs, and make them feel less like human-based action figures. In the same way, the combination of both rigid features and some smoother features give the feeling of biomechanicality, rather than simply one way or the other. I think one of my problems with the Toa Mata has always been that they simply look too much like pure robots, rather than the biomechanical beings that they've always been described as. Their utterly stiff limbs and use of gears may didn't give the feeling of truly alive beings, and as I said before, their masks were simply too generic for me to get as much personality out of them as I have with later masks. Later Toa designs, starting with the Toa Metru, gave them more articulation points and multi-piece armor, as well as masks that were more detailed and were tied to a distinct individual.

Of course, if you had seen the character artwork I mentioned in my previous post, this post would seem kind of odd, as the masks my characters wear are all somewhat simple as well. And in fact, that was one of the big reasons why I abandoned my first concept sketches (which looked a lot like actual Bionicle sets) and went for a more human-like approach that gave all of the characters mouths and more expressionable eyes. Though the mask designs in the original drawings are very similar to the ones in my later drawings, their simplicity failed to display enough character, and the only way to truly show the personalities of my various characters was to give them actual expressions. This is simply impossible with real bionicle sets, as their cold eyes and general lack of mouths make it hard to show any real emotion. That is why I prefer more complex masks, as the complexity generally helps to show the personality of the characters, in a way that simple masks paired with expressionless faces can not.

Plus, just throwing this out there, but Bonesiii's affinity for vector art doesn't mean his aesthetic tastes are any more significant to mine, someone who expresses their artistic talents through MOCs, photography, writing, and yes, pencil art (no one has really seen it because I don't do BIONICLE art).

And I never said that it was any more significant. On the contrary, the reason I made that post is because I often feel as though some of the more critical members here feel as though their taste and talents are superior. A common theme I've been trying to drive home in posts for years is that people who like Bionicle's later years can also be extremely talented, and that their tastes are just as valid as the tastes of people who hate Bionicle's later years.

The problem is, as Algernon clearly showed in his response to me a while back, the idea that "some tastes are more valid than others" is actually held by some members here. And that's exteemely problematic, because that kind of view cultivates disrespect and angry conversations.

Which, relates back to why I am enjoying the aesthetic quality of these new HF sets. They're smooth, streamlined, and look all the better for it. Gone are the frustrating and unnecessary textures that just created more difficult-to-mold pieces. Gone are the extremely frustratingly busy torso designs (Piraka, cough cough). And I think that, for being so full of lines and shapes, these helmets have actual character most of the masks of the past years, as I've just explained, lacked.

Again though, this is all a matter of taste, and there are lots of people (including myself) who prefer their Bionicle toys to be more complex. But really, the problem with Hero Factory isn't even really about their simplicity, IMO - it's about the fact that they are look very similar to each other, masks included. At least the Toa Mata Masks all look very different - with the Hero Factory guys, they all look like generic robot helmets. And that frontal torso has got to be one of the ugliest parts I have ever seen, IMO - as I said before, it looks like something out of Neo Shifters or Power Rangers, and I can't imagine it being useful in MOCing when it has that annoying "Hero" symbol on it.

Maybe I'm just spoiled because the Bara Magna sets were so good

Finally, something I can agree with! Preach on, brother!

Edited January 22, 2010 by Grevious

[vexorian]

Personally, if TLC had never made masks packs and instead made unique masks for the Toa and Mctoran, I would have prefered the original Toa's Kanohi to all be tailored more specifically to their unique elements and personalities.

That would have sucked though.

I think the Kanohi were the best collective in the story of just about every toy so I wouldn't agree with any opinion that suggests not to have them. It is simply because, besides of being a collective, they were also amazing for MoCs, my brother and I were not even close to finishing the Kanohi collection, but all the extra faces were very useful for new characters...

I think though that it is great that Kanohi could give toa a personality without having to resort to cheap things like ... adding flames to Tahu's. the kaukau is forgivable because it is amazing for MoCs though...

I hate Jaller's the only thing in which it can be used is in a fire toa with the same color scheme as Jaller's . It is also incredibly lame this underwater guy has a flame mask ...

Edited January 22, 2010 by 3D Brickthing

[Wrinkledlion X]

For the most part, I agree with DV, though I loved Jaller's mask. It had an calm look about it, but also an authoritative one, which I think really suited his personality.

Vader has a point- however, there are masks that I find to be more effective at displaying the elements than the Mata's. Nokama's Metru Mask, for example, was feminine, peaceful, and aquatic all at the same time.

Ugh, I hated that mask... It looked like something out of a girls' toy line. The great thing about the 2001 masks is that, for the most part, they're ambiguous enough that they can be used for either gender. The Great Rau was useless for anyone but Nokama.

[Legorski]

I loved the original Toa and Turaga Kanohi, but after that the masks went downhill. The originals are always best! 8D

[Cap'n Kopaka]

I thought Jaller Mahri's mask was pretty awesome. Like a samurai mask or something :P

*sneaks out*

~ck

[Omicron]

Ugh, I hated that mask... It looked like something out of a girls' toy line.

Clikits were compatible with it. :P

Besides, it was made feminine since it was worn by a female Toa. :P

-Omi

[Zarkan]

I personally didn't like Nokama's Toa mask as much as I liked some of the other Toa metru masks, but I still thought it was pretty decent. Actually, it's probably the most feminine mask ever made for a Bionicle set, and I think it personally fits her character very well. Best of all, however, I like that, as with all the other 2004 Toa masks, it shared similarities with the noble turaga masks - which, looking back on the utter failure of the Toa Mistika's masks, is something that we should have probably appreciated more back then.

[Wrinkledlion X]

I don't think "most feminine" is a good thing. It just means there's less use for it outside of that character. The noble Rau is much better, as it looks appropriately feminine, but also can easily be used on male characters.

[Omicron]

I don't think "most feminine" is a good thing.

Same with "over masculine", which most masks are.

-Omi

[Wrinkledlion X]

Exactly. I'm not disagreeing with that by any means.

[Zarkan]

I don't think "most feminine" is a good thing. It just means there's less use for it outside of that character. The noble Rau is much better, as it looks appropriately feminine, but also can easily be used on male characters.

Well, as I explained in some of my previous posts in this topic, I'd much rather have masks that are more spefically tailored to the character's personality, rather than simply having generic masks that can be worn on any character. After all, since it's been established that one kind of kanohi mask can have multiple shapes (the hau, for example), I don't see why masks made for specific sets can't have at least slight variations. Of course, from a production cost standpoint, making unique masks for every single new character isn't possible, which is why we get things like Voyatoran with the masks of the Toa Metru. But, I can't always dream, can't I?

[Wrinkledlion X]

I haven't been a big mocist for a while, but I used to be, and masks that can be used on multiple characters are extremely helpful with that.

[Cap'n Kopaka]

I don't think "most feminine" is a good thing. It just means there's less use for it outside of that character. The noble Rau is much better, as it looks appropriately feminine, but also can easily be used on male characters.

I don't know, I don't think any mask, Great Rau included, have looked all that "feminine" so far. Soft, rounded, maybe, but I prefer it that way. Another thing I'd like to point out - the Noble Ruru looks far more feminine than the Noble Rau, in my opinion, but it works on male characters.

~ck

[Zaktan of the Shadows]

I think the best Kanohi is the Pehuki.

...

-ZotS

[Trionx]

Question:

Why the hell wasn't there ever a figure with a pre-mutated Olisi?

Just sayin'