the last chronicler

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  1. the last chronicler

    Star Wars

    I'd argue the character development in TLJ is far more important than the simple character introductory role of TFA. Finn learns from Canto Bight that for many one simply can't run away from the systematic corruption (to run from the 'machine' as he did) of the First Order, and that he has to fight for others to make things right. Rey learns her place in the universe is not part of someone else's journey but her own, going from accepting her role in the hero's journey with Luke in TFA to making her own journey and family with the Resistance. Kylo Ren decides to beleive his past in totality makes him weak, that he cannot gain his power from the Skywalker line and resolves to destroy it, fully detaching himself from the galaxy to maintain his self-denial and belief in his own exceptionalism. And Poe learns not to fight in terms of winning the battle but saving the lives and ideals the war is defending: to not be blinded by the imminent threat but see the larger picture. I think one reason TLJ seems conterintuitive for fans is in TFA the thesis of the heroes is in part given in Maz's speech about bringing back Luke, and the villains thesis statement is in Hux's hatred of disorder in the Republic. Neither opinion is given much authority or objective value in TLJ in terms of Luke's status or Hux's competence, but treating either opinion as if from a reliable narrator may be too forgiving and too narratively limiting for the trilogy as a whole. Of course, I do agree that TLJ subverts elements of a simple escapist interpretation of TFA but that is not against the traditions of Star Wars. In particular that is Yoda's ideology, and exalts the lessons of moral complexity learned from Vader's redemption. It also parallels the underdog post-Vietnam-War philosophy of A New Hope with the Empire as a metaphor criticizing the military industrial complex. I think if a film does not have a relevent and powerful emotional effect then it cannot be memorable, and TLJ has a good external conflict, a great emotional conflict, and a fantastic philosophical conflict that focuses on the importance of how the first step of revolution/rebellion is in one's mindset about the world/galaxy.
  2. the last chronicler

    LEGO Star Wars 2018 Set Discussion - READ FIRST POST!

    TLJ has some fantastic scenes (Tree, Showdown on Crait, Thrown Room already made, etc) that can actually be turned into sets even though people argue the film is absent of value, though not a vehicle based. I also like the yacht from Solo although I found the film's script kind of boring. But I think the fact that action figures aren't as popular as the 80s, that every Disney film so far is aesthetically copying from old designs (which is fine with me, in terms of narrative logic), and the films are designed around making a good or at least entertaining story appealing to Gen X OG fans and millennials rather than around a multitude of art designs like George Lucas did with the prequels to sell toys leaves the set options thin. Furthermore keeping fans from getting invested is the overpricing of all new Star Wars toys. I like the No Man Sky esque vehicles from that Resistance trailer though.
  3. the last chronicler

    Star Wars

    I guess my meaning in expressing this opinion to you is that hindsight is 20/20, and as someone who wrote a paper on TFA a few months after its release, in 2016, I predicted/understood most of the themes of the sequels seen in TLJ correctly, but I also appreciated the thoughtfulness and what I did not expect in Rian's writing. So, I see it like Holdo's speech about the flaw of only believing in the sun when you see it, in that we won't fully appreciate and be grateful of TLJ's themes until we can look back at it in the context of IX. I'm trying to present why this trilogy has artistic value, and possible value beyond the confines of the OT, thanks to TLJ. I'm showing why it is part of a larger journey rather than fan impressions that the film is the end of the journey.
  4. the last chronicler

    Star Wars

    I think the argument that TLJ is subversive for subversions sake as a theme feels subjective (and particular to fans rather than general audiences ) because it depends on ones sense/understanding of the status quo, but ultimately in a story that 'status quo' has to develop and change in order for the characters to learn and grow. I do not think the film was subversive for its own sake or acting solely to counter the franchise, but reemphasizes the sagas themes. Your reply is very thoughtful, and while I understand why people did not want this TLJ version of Luke I also look back at the OT and much of the contradiction and lack of development there is in his character, the biggest leap being ROTJ's darker confident Luke who is unlike the desperate figure at the end of Empire. What I like about TLJ is how it shows Luke's intuition, his instinct, fails his morality: to him his own failure is the biggest antagonism, and the ultimate negation of his redemption of Vader. He has become his own Vader and failed his own legacy in Ben. It is the lesson of the cave on Dagobah in effect, and in consequence we see his choice to take Jedi morality out of the battle: to choose inaction because he sees himself as imperfect, a failure of the ideal morality he represents. Luke has to relearn that it was never about his own intuition, but about his moral choices to protect those he cares about like his father, and seeing the good in him, that made Luke a hero. I've watched both sequel films back-to-back and they really tell the same arc: to restore peace and justice in the galaxy put into a state of fear and desperation. With the government destroyed by the FO and its only Resistance in isolation, Luke, by sacrificing himself defending the people, restores that power of peace and justice, the means to restore the Republic, by putting it back in the hands of the people: that "finding ones place in the universe"--the great metaphorical driving theme that underlies ANH--is ultimately about protecting each other through the Force that binds us together. The reason I'm stating that I want to counter criticism is not because I think I have some true opinion, but because a lot of the critisism that has become part of the popular discussion and used as foundational arguments against TLJ have misunderstandings or miss key details of the film's plot and narrative structure. It is not that I don't look at the film or any other with a critical mind, it is just that I think a lot of fans accentuate non-issues and ultimately fail to see the forest from the trees. They fail to look at the film's own journey.
  5. the last chronicler

    Star Wars

    I may have went to far. I appreciate when others express there opinion when it is not done in a manipulative and reductionist way, because it is really a microcosm of the cherrypicking of data that has plagued the discourse of TLJ, using any ambiguity critically as validation of negative responses, where there are so many qualifiers to RT audience scores that have little to do with regular viewers or the theatrical experience, and websites like imdb that are closer to the traditional online review discourse, and exit polls from the film tell a different broader story. If people are just cherrypicking and quoting to validate some absolute 'true opinion' (for which there is not in art) on a forum, than that becomes more about self-expression rather than the public discourse which I think is part of the ideal goal of a forum. We all have personal a opinion/experience, so I know I need to check my actions more carefully because this can't become personal character attacks which do not say anything about the subject matter: that instead it should be about being able to put our ideas out there. I just want to remind people that they carry the brunt of the responsibily for expressing their opinion and understanding. my appreciation of TLJ come from the fact it expresses themes and ideas that are incredible important and underrepresented in cinema. It expresses some of the most important ideas of any Star Wars films in terms of the nature of morality and perspective, as well as learning and change. It also is a perfect representation of the storytelling rule (Pixar's #1 writing rule) that we appreciate characters more for trying than succeeding, because that is how we experience learning and change, in those suble moments.
  6. the last chronicler

    Star Wars

    x105Black, taking everything I say and just saying 'Nope' is not critical thinking, it just shows you are lazy, reactionary, and lack the skills to validate your own opinion. You bring nothing to the table in this discussion. Selectively (mis)quoting my sarcasm (as well as taking my "true fans"/'true scotsman fallacy' statement to heart also showing the massiveness of your ego) further delegitimizes your method of discussion, and arguing BB-8 piloting a AT-ST was not as a purposeful joke when the OT did the exact same thing for laughs with Chewie and Ewoks shows your neccesity to distort reality to fit your narrative. That scene is completely different than the geniune bad written made fun of in scenes like Anakin talking about hating sand or Palpatine turning into a prune in RoTS. The jokes that are laughed at in TLJ (I was in the theatre) were actual jokes, and you can't argue against people's gut reaction to comedy and the critical love of TLJ for it dark boldness and humour. As well, without Snoke's death Kylo's arc would be incomplete, and we would not be able believe he was now in full control, but also feeling the complete loss of that control to his past, and willing to do everything to destroy Luke as representative of that past: thereby you could not have their showdown without dramatic weight and the fear Luke could be destroyed.
  7. the last chronicler

    Star Wars

    Man I wish I knew everyone with a different opinion than me was paid off. Takes a lot of guts to say your opinion is right because everyone else is part of a vast conspiracy and you are the only one with free thought. Of course, you have evidence that 200+ critics were paid off with papertrails from Disney and leaks from those critics who refused the bribe? Or maybe you know because Disney also paid off critics for Solo even though it still only got 70% approval, Wrinkle in Time, as well as Infinity War, Thor Ragnorok, and Guardians? They've got a whole departement for it for they need the infrastructure, because no review is real. Nothing is real. Luckily we have those 100,000 audience reviews from real and true fans from RT that--unlike the millions of people who paid to watch the film--show the truth that with 49% of them giving it a fresh tomato (above 6/10) and 51% saying it is rotten (reviews below 6/10) TLJ still ends up approximately an average 6/10 essentially, the same as the prequels despite the heroic efforts of these true fans to try to make it a 1/10. Of course, pay no attention to 700,000 imdb reviews that situate TLJ as a 7.3/10, comparable to Solo's imdb 7.1/10, because spammers on rotten tomatoes could never use an unregulated uncontrolled polling system to lower an avg TLJ review statistic by 10%... ...or maybe Star Wars as a fantasy series has always been full of plotholes (which TLJ really does not really have, feel free to suggest some for me to disprove) and goofy jokes with various degrees of audience response (most of TLJ's are fantastically timed and well thought out). And maybe people of various ages like SW and TLJ because of that. Again, its not like TLJ has entire scenes that are laughed at even though they are not jokes, like scenes in the prequels. And the deaths, even Snoke's surprising mid-trilogy demise, have emotional weight and narrative purpose for the characters, unlike deaths of those like Grievous who are just special effect showpieces.
  8. the last chronicler

    Star Wars

    I see, fair argument. The thing is most reviews loved the comedy and heaviness/boldness of TLJ and saw them as a highlight. Not every joke is for anyone as I find the Hux call scene just fun but not funny, but the audiences I saw TLJ with laughed out loud at the scene, and that's a gut reaction to comedy not some online argument. There are wide ranging jokes that are funny and are liked for their fun for sure, "I've seen your daily routine, you are not busy" is genuine well timed comedy that comes right after the fantastic 'nowhere' dialog, so to say the movie is not fun makes you seem like a curmudgeon or manipulating to validate your opinion, especially stating the prequels will be seen better when, unlike TLJ, most of their parts laughed at are not the jokes. I also think scene by scene you can compare TLJ and see how great the acting and drama is in comparison to the previous Star Wars films, whereas the prequels fall flat, and TFA is often only functional in it dialog TLJ is highlighted by great performances, especially from Mark Hamill. I'm excited for IX filming, but I'm concerned about JJ's inability to write satisfying endings, TFA being his best to date.
  9. the last chronicler

    Star Wars

    Now I think we are talking about the subjective nature of comedy. Personally I think there are lots of cheesy jokes in Star Wars ("I thought they smelled bad, on the outside") but most are not treated with as much hostility as TLJ's jokes because people can move on, or are just accepted as the 'canon' or part of the films style, especially if watching as a kid. Obviously the scene needs to happen otherwise Poe could not charge his engine, and the scene is not as long as people remember, plus SW has always had one foot in modernity ("I'll see you in hell!") as part of its style. Also critics do not usually re-watch or re-review movies actively, they usually base their reviews on the context of watching thousands of films in there lifetime and many a year and judge their experience. The idea that the effect which I think I'm seeing, in which a portion of the fanbase rationalizes negativity to turn a slim majority of online fans to view shock and change in TLJ as something one should feel bad about, would affect a group of critics who literally do not care that much is laughable. You have to remember ESB was not received positively by fans as well. The difference with TLJ is it is not just a good movie, it has something to say and a sense of authorship (reminds me of ANH in that way), and I think fans don't like that the movie has a stronger opinion than they do because they want to be the authority on the franchise.
  10. the last chronicler

    Star Wars

    I'm not saying it would be satisfactory to you, I'm saying to make a film that simple satisfies your expectations based on the original films is not telling a story because there is no change. If you want that satisfaction you just re-watch the originals. Also, what made the prequels bad was they had no drama or story, pointless comedy that was distracting was part of the consequence. It is interesting you jump back to the jokes, because there is a great article about fan expectations (Starting with Star Wars but speaking in broad terms) and toxicity that gets to the heart of the thing in fans living vicariously through their franchise, and how ultimately it comes down to that it is not uncommon for fans, in expressing their disgust with TLJ, reveal they feel personally not taken seriously because the franchise is not being taken 'seriously.' That the jokes are making fun of them when they clearly are not, revealing the truth of how they view the franchise are part them existentially. Ironically, TLJ is all about subverting those selfish experiences, up into the final shot the shows hope as an unknown hero in the child. Personally, I think the perspective stems from how we as kids take things more seriously, and most people see SW in that childlike innocence. I mean, you can see it with how kids took The Lego Movie as a drama. And can you really say Star Wars, the franchise whose original film opens with a joke, has an entire sequence devoted to accidentally parking in a giant space worm, a sea monster in a spaceships trash, munchkin aliens, C3PO worshipers, is a 'serious' franchise? I find it hard to believe that one can watch the Cantina in ANH and not see the same nature of irony and humor. I also in my first viewing responded with surprise to the comedy in the Poe/Hux scene, even Finn's leaky suit. But I also had the same reaction in TFA to Poe saying "its hard to hear you in that mask" and "you need to try a different interrogation technique," and Rey's mindtrick. But they stick less because they are not a funny or really add to the story. Furthermore, the Hux scene actually is part of the story, and shows his character in contrast to that early Kylo TFA moment, and reveals how his "no one can betray the FO" attitude applies in his first personal confrontation with the Resistance. The film is also about the nature of miscommunication and the moment sets up that theme. Also I would be completely fine with arguing this to the end of time, I enjoy the discussion and the ideas that come from it and I want it in public discussion. Although you haven't added to the argument anything I have not already heard, I've changed my opinion before on films so maybe you'll be able to find that one trick to blow up my entire rational (or should we learn the lesson from TLJ?). Ultimately, I think your reaction does not say much about the film itself, because in the test of time what a film is not is not remembered (Spoiler, most movies are not TLJ, not just the OT), what is remembered is what makes the film what it is. TLJ is fun and thoughtful, has resonant turning points, and has an climatic finale that pulls together all characters and plot-lines in a way that perfectly reflects its themes. I'm confident that will hold up better than any trivial reaction, and who knows, over time, all of TLJ's qualities (and those inconsistent with the OT) could be seen as better storytelling, superseding arguments for the OT's superiority to be considered the greater film. I mean, before fan negativity TLJ was (and still is with top critics) critically the most universally positively received Star Wars film, whereas ESB, as the best SW film, was actually negatively reviewed when it first came out, so TLJ has a head start.
  11. the last chronicler

    Star Wars

    I don't think we have the full story on what is happening with the Jedi and the future of the force, and I think that is part of the further plot threads in the final chapter. I'm a fan of destroying the dichotomy, but I feel grey always feels like just creating a third option out of Sith and Jedi beliefs making the old beliefs evil retroactively, or as some say say its like balancing helping a lady cross the street by pushing another into traffic. The problem is that TFA, by unfolding the plot through mystery, was less driven by suspense and more by the audiences lack of knowledge broken by revelations that assure fans they are watching 'good-old OT-style Star Wars.' The tension is created in the audiences minds by using mysteries to recreate familiar tropes. TLJ creates real suspense and conflict for the characters based on events that happened to them, and because suspense is about uncertainty it puts the audience on the same page as the characters in knowing how events will transpire . In contrast, in TFA there is no danger because mystery is just about revealing how characters will solve the problem, not if it will be resolved. TFA's Mystery works as narrative drive for fans because there is no uncertainty that the heroes won't find Luke (So much so the plot nearly forgets about it when the Republic is destroyed), only uncertainty in how they get there with surprises of nostalgia. Whereas TLJ removes that artificial safety net, making the future of the galaxy uncertain until the very last scene. The consequence is the film feels like it's destroying plot threads when in reality it is just actually playing the conflict out and telling the story, and one has to empathize with the characters in their own struggle rather than rely on the simple anticipation of Skywalker's return. Thereby, actual suspense which is at the core of storytelling is seen by some fans as negative because for them the tension is between whether they'll get the 'Star Wars they want' or not, rather than the actual story of the films. The film destroys any sense of plot assurances, confused by fans as story. I think a lot of fans distanced themselves mentally very early in TLJ as it placed them in dangerous uncertain waters, because you do not know how the story will end unlike TFA, Rogue One, and Solo which are simply mysteries restoring the franchise status-quo. To quote Rian Johnson's writing, fans--without a carrot on a stick with Luke--cut themselves of from 'the Force' per-se making it impossible to empathize with the TLJ journey, because they are not given a destination they know. Do you know what will happen in ESB by watching ANH? No. Now fans are uncomfortable with two years waiting in uncertainty and blame it on the movie, when that is exactly what it should do.
  12. the last chronicler

    Star Wars

    https://www.starwars.com/news/star-wars-episode-ix-cast-announced Here's the full main cast list. Personally I think TLJ was actively trying to create the most desperate hour for the characters, to create the second act antithesis to TFA's 'bring back SW' thesis, and that starving of the audience of cartharsis creates a lesson while also making the success in IX that much more sweet. I think TLJ needs the potential to be credited for that because if IX is good critics will say it is in spite of TLJ, and if it is bad it will be because of TLJ according to them. Also, I noticed that if Luke simply wanted to take himself out of the battle by going to Atch-To, knowing the danger of Kylo and Snoke he would have taken new apprentices to the first temple. Therefore we can deduce he did not want to train new Jedi putting us back to square one with TLJ Luke not wanting to train Rey Yoda-style anyhow, without the reasons Rian gives it becomes out of selfish cowardice instead of his moral beliefs. It makes the most sense for his motivation that Luke did not train more Jedi because he stopped believing in their neccesity and his own ability.
  13. the last chronicler

    Star Wars

    Well I also haven't seen them either, but looking at the TLJ scene tonally its closer too, and both seem to be inspired by, the ending of A Fistful of Dollars from the 1960s: the Clint Eastwood western which was also referenced and copied in Back to the Future Part III. Fistful of Dollars was also a remake of the Samurai film Yojimbo whose climax is a swordsman taking down multiple gunman. TLJ using the showdown trope in a way that is similar to a different movie is not that big of a deal, the creators of Breaking Bad for example openly admit the finale is inspired by the ending of the John Ford Western The Searchers, and they've taken from The Godfather films as well. EDIT: The whole ten minutes of Escape's ending is done quite differently from TLJ, the army shooting part is the closest and could be homage, but it's part of the reveal rather than the buildup like TLJ.
  14. the last chronicler

    Star Wars

    Han said Luke threw it all away. And Luke was conflicted when Rey arrived. As well, before TLJ there was no evidence of any Jedi knowledge left at the temple. Also, as we know from the OT Luke is not a big fan of lessons, and is skeptical about his own abilities. He looked over the books and found no answers, because the point of the film is the force is part of everything, not just some secret Jedi knowledge. If you argue that Luke found some Jedi info that would fix the problem of Kylo Ren that sounds more like the Wookiepedia article version of the movie rather than one about the struggle at hand. It does not improve the trilogy's core conflict or theme. Furthermore, Luke does realize he still has good to do, even if he can't redeem Kylo Ren himself. To be fair, Luke learning something at the temple that PREVENTED him from joining the fight was my first conclusion even before the film's title was released, but if Luke's motives in this film was what bothered you in the movie called The Last Jedi and whose infamous trailer line was "it is time for the Jedi to end," than TLJ never even had a chance to meet your expectations because you already invalidated the premise and disliked the film before it came out.
  15. the last chronicler

    Star Wars

    You are right that JJ didn't plan on Luke giving up the Jedi way and disconnecting from the Force, because George Lucas planned it before JJ even joined the writing team. The idea was hardcoded into the thinking for this trilogy, but JJ wanted to delay it and do a cool (Han Solo-like) action-packed nostagic journey to introduce the characters first. Frankly, the trilogy may have benefited from Rian directing the first film and ripping the bandaid off early even if it annoyed fans. If you want a bad story Rian did not need to do Luke the way he did, but it is the choice that holds together the entire conflict, and it is the right choice even if it does not feel good. Also, the film challenges the characters, not the fanbase because the film actually deeply reinforces the themes of Star Wars. If you felt challenged or subverted then congradulations you empathized with the characters vicariously, which means the conflict was true and powerful rather then pointless fluff. Also, the Force is controlled through instinct and Rey has a lot of that considering she had to survive alone on a planet. The whole of TFA is used to show her testing those instincts from flying the Falcon to timing the door close on the Rathtar (parrelling Luke using the Force to time the Death Star bombing in ANH). Furthermore, Luke was arguably less experienced than Rey in many aspects. Also if Luke wanted to train another Jedi than why did he isolate himself? Again that makes no sense. My expectation was he was going to be more sympathetic to her (connected to her plight through the Force like Obi-Wan to Alderaan), but I accepted that once you look at the whole story set up in TFA Luke's perspective is far more poignant and personal, and the TLJ fills in the last peice of puzzle of his failure with Kylo as a poetic counterpoint to his success with Vader. He failed Ben and cannot accept that failure, seeing that the ways of the Jedi did nothing to prevent it. Just as the Jedi could not prevent the fall of the Republic. Its the tragedy and conflict that holds the whole arc of this new saga together and gives it weight. But Luke has to learn that he hasn't destroyed everything he created and find hope again.