4 channels, 8 motors, 32 independent functions

[TheItalianBrick]

Guys, it's just a modular idea, it can actually be composed in different ways like 6X2, 5X3. 4X4,

The 6X2 ( six is the number of output motors, 2 is the number of "camshaft" actuators) generates 24 functions

The 5X3 generates 30 functions

The 4X4 generates 32 functions

You can actually use more gears in order to place the "camshaft" motor somewhere, and then connect all the "switchers" placed in different places.

This is just an idea of a module. Take it easy LOL :tongue: :tongue:

Let me know what you think about it! Would it work? :grin:

http://s28.postimg.org/k1dmhil95/Schermata_2014_06_24_alle_06_55_06.png' alt='Schermata_2014_06_24_alle_06_55_06.png'> [/img]

32funciotns.lxf

[That_LEGO_Guy]

Interesting Idea, the gearing of the out-put axles would be immense, I'd say it would work.

[TheItalianBrick]

yes but we are talking about 32 functions........if you only need 20, for istances, you can easily squeeze it! plus they don't necessary need to be on the same axle.

Mine it's only the concept behind it! but then everybody can develope it as needeed! :tongue:

Edited June 24, 2014 by TheItalianBrick

[hrontos]

If you are asking if it is buildable, yes, it is.

If you are asking if the model would be playable, I would say, no. At least not by hand.

It is quite difficult to achieve middle position of the clutch. In your scenario at each moment only one clutch on each input axle can be engaged. This makes it difficult to play with.

And I am not sure if you can use more than one function at a time (to be more precise, functions has to be grouped, which makes the model a bit more tricky to design).

So it can be useful, but probably for some specific application in combination with Mindstorms, where engaging/disengaging clutches can be programmed.

[Aris]

Very nice idea! But I think that it wouldn't quite work because you have to use a large amount of gears and axles in order to transfer all the 32 funtions to the desired place.

Also the torque loss and the space including the functions would be enormous...

I am sure that this would work much better with up to 16 funtions.

[TheItalianBrick]

Very nice idea! But I think that it wouldn't quite work because you have to use a large amount of gears and axles in order to transfer all the 32 funtions to the desired place.

Also the torque loss and the space including the functions would be enormous...

I am sure that this would work much better with up to 16 funtions.

You don't loose any torque as each axle is moved only once at time. and it only engages a gear at time! plus as i said they don't have to be "in lane" as we see in the pics. it's just an idea! I don't give up lol!!! :laugh:

Ok, now think about a wheeled crane, like a Liebherr 1200, 9 axles wheel. Obviously you you want to extend the triggers, and low them. these are 2 functions. once you've done it you are not gonna use those functions for a while.

You can use one of the four XL motor for the boom operations, one of the XL motor for the driving operations, one of the XL motor for the triggers operations, and one of the XL motor for few more things. (we are talking about 32 functions afterall....but it could be 15, 20...whatever!)

So this way you have 4 different "topics" and playability it's great! :tongue:

Edited June 24, 2014 by TheItalianBrick

[Aris]

I totally agree mate, but in case there are functions too far away from the source you should use many gears.That means torque LOSS!!

If not, why do we sometimes connect axles directly to the motors for driving vehicles?Try to do this with 30 gears Is it the same?

Remember the lego technic crane 42009? Its outriggers stuck due to the enormous amount of gears because the motor is far away from them.

Indeed, 32 functions are too many, you would only use them in rare cases. I tried this with 14 functions and was quite hard as for the functionality.

That's my opinion!

[TheItalianBrick]

I see your point, sure. Obviously we must be wise at designing such a complex vehicle trying to reduce friction as much as we can! Plus the 42009 it's such a wonderful creation, but technical wise it's design it's restricted due to the "production" and the fact it has to be sellable and has to creat profit for the company!

We are talking about custom products here. I'll make it work...you can bet on it! And if not 32 functions....at least it will have 20 or more!!!

[Aris]

Hehe I believe you. Everything depend on willingness

Is a crane the most suitable vehicle to support this tremendous amount of functions(32 would be like a record)? Or should you think of another type of machine?

Anyway, it's extremely challenging

[TheItalianBrick]

You guys give me an idea of a vehicle with 32 functions and I'll make a LDD of it!! :laugh:

I DEFINITELY ACCEPT THE CHALLANGE!!!

[dhc6twinotter]

I don't see why it wouldn't work. One of the mocs on my list of things I want to build would have 17 or 18 functions, and I plan on having a dual stage gearbox with 2 m motors for switching and 4 motors for driving the functions (or more likely, I will have 8 motors driving the functions with only 4 of these pulling power at a time). That would still leave me with 2 motors for drive and steering. Playability might be a bit of a challenge, but I think as long as the functions are grouped properly and it's easy to see what position the gearbox is in, then it shouldn't be too bad.

Very nice idea! But I think that it wouldn't quite work because you have to use a large amount of gears and axles in order to transfer all the 32 funtions to the desired place.

Also the torque loss and the space including the functions would be enormous...

I am sure that this would work much better with up to 16 funtions.

I would agree with that, but I think it also depends on what is being built. Theoretically, with TheItailianBrick's design, you wouldn't need a function to be any more than 2 gears away from a motor.

EDIT: It is possible to have 16 functions off 4 drive motors and 2 motors for the gearbox.

Edited June 24, 2014 by dhc6twinotter

[TheItalianBrick]

Hello Daniel, thanks for your comment! You got the point, iI mean 32 functions it's the highest combinations reachable with this system. But if you only need 15-20 functions you still can have 2 channels, for istances, (within as many motors you want) for driving and steering!

or why not a motor for airpump if decide to have a pneumatic model......

I only gave the basic idea, everybody then can develop it according to it's needs! I reckon within 20 functions (which are already a lots!!!) should be all right and smooth!!! :tongue:

[Bzroom]

Use servos to achieve the middle position on the clutch gears. Unfortunately you will only get 1 channel of independent motion from these 8 motors. If you had used the 8 motors independently, you would have 8 channels of independent motion. :) If you could synchronize all these motors with some mindstorms you may be able to use a fast enough refresh rate to make it seem like all the axes are moving independently, but really moving one at a time at an interval. This is obviously vary analogous to an LED matrix. The same techniques will apply for independent control.

I was thinking about a similar system, I had planned to use double the number of clutches and inverse shifters to latch the channels when they weren't being addressed.

[TheItalianBrick]

Hello, servos achieve the central position but don't hold the left or right position, unless you use the "

LEGO® Power Functions IR Speed Remote Control"

Normal motors are much better, specially if used with worm gears to be more accurate in terms of position!

Already tried, works very well!!

[Bzroom]

Or unless you use THIScontroller. Also i'm pretty sure the mindstorms can assign a position and have the servo hold it. I did not expect you to succumb to such a small limitation! A motor without return to center will drift over time and will not be suited for automated control and will make manual control more difficult.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Bzroom

[TheItalianBrick]

well...I only use LEGO parts!! well mindstorms is ok..but it doesn't sound "LEGO TECHNIC" either...so... :tongue:

[Bzroom]

Technic-ly, neither are Power Functions: http://powerfunctions.lego.com/en-us/default.aspx

[TheItalianBrick]

well, at least made officialy by LEGO :tongue:

if you look at the past.....50 years ago....you can't even say they were "LEGO". it's called evolution.... :wink:

[dhc6twinotter]

A motor without return to center will drift over time and will not be suited for automated control and will make manual control more difficult.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but if a worm gear is used on the changeover catch, the driving ring position can be held indefinitely. Whenever I build a gearbox used to multiply functions, I use a worm gear on the changeover catch with a 24t clutch gear between the worm gear and motor.

When building a gearbox that is used to multiply functions, like the ones being discussed here, a center position is not really needed. It's more advantageous to have the driving rings engaged all the way to the left, or all the way to the right (or up/down, forward/backward…whatever direction you want to use).

I don't think a servo motor would work well for the standard 2 position gearboxes being discussed here, however, some people have used servo motors for 3 (and maybe 4) position gearboxes that use a ratcheting mechanism to keep driving rings engaged. I question the reliability of such designs, but perhaps my building abilities are not up to par. The people that have built such mechanisms seem happy with the results, and it's something I'd like to further explore.

Edited June 24, 2014 by dhc6twinotter

[TheItalianBrick]

I don't think a servo motor would work well for the standard 2 position gearboxes being discussed here, however, some people have used servo motors for 3 (and maybe 4) position gearboxes that use a ratcheting mechanism to keep driving rings engaged. I question the reliability of such designs, but perhaps my building abilities are not up to par. The people that have built such mechanisms seem happy with the results, and it's something I'd like to further explore.

You need neutral position for 3 of the 4 axles if you want to use 4 functions at time. simply to understand!

[dhc6twinotter]

You need neutral position for 3 of the 4 axles if you want to use 4 functions at time. simply to understand!

Oh, right you are! For the designs posted in the original post, that would be correct. I was thinking about a couple other gearbox designs when I wrote that. The 15 output gearbox I plan to use for my future project doesn't need a center position.

[EDIT: Typed the wrong number for my gearbox output. Should read 15 instead of 17. 17 is the total number of function I plan on having, not the amount the gearbox will output. ]

Edited June 24, 2014 by dhc6twinotter

[TheItalianBrick]

lol good for you...but if you need 32 functions? lol!!!! :laugh: :laugh:

[dhc6twinotter]

A 128 output gearbox can be built without needing a center position for any of the gearboxes. That would be 4 motors to operate the functions and 4 motors to operate the gearboxes. To achieve this, we would need twenty three 8 output gearboxes linked together. The overall gearbox would be massive and playability horrendous, but it's doable.

(I think I did all the math right )

[Bzroom]

You need neutral position for 3 of the 4 axles if you want to use 4 functions at time. simply to understand!

In some cases you can have 4 functions at a time, but in most cases you will not be able to have that many functions at a time. Consider if the 4 functions you wanted to power were all connected to the same motor. They are not independently controllable. There are for more of these collisions than there are possibilities. I would say that average case, your mechanism will deliver one function at a time.

[TheItalianBrick]

A 128 output gearbox can be built without needing a center position for any of the gearboxes. That would be 4 motors to operate the functions and 4 motors to operate the gearboxes. To achieve this, we would need twenty three 8 output gearboxes linked together. The overall gearbox would be massive and playability horrendous, but it's doable.

(I think I did all the math right )

show me the scheme please! I need to build something with 127 functions. one will be unused...you never know in the future I may need of it aswell LOL :laugh:

In some cases you can have 4 functions at a time, but in most cases you will not be able to have that many functions at a time. Consider if the 4 functions you wanted to power were all connected to the same motor. They are not independently controllable. There are for more of these collisions than there are possibilities. I would say that average case, your mechanism will deliver one function at a time.

That's why I said at the beginning you need to group them in a smart way!! this module I created is mostly suitable for a wheeled huge crane. and it's easy to understand that when you drive, you don't need to raise the boom LOL :tongue:

Edited June 25, 2014 by TheItalianBrick