Ambassador Project - Haven Guard Flag & Torso Designs

[Mister Phes]

Are we going to need a poll to determine which flag design is the most appropriate?

I think the emblem that appears on the flag of the Haven Gaurd should be the crossed anchors with barrel and crown that appears on the sail of the small ship in the Imperial Trading Post set.

That ties it in nicely with the original LEGO Pirates theme.

[The_Cook]

Are we going to need a poll to determine which flag design is the most appropriate?

Eventually, yes; but I still think there might be more suggestions out there rather than just creating a poll around the first idea.

We've got crossed anchors but what else might represent the merchants of The Haven? Perhaps a monogram, although that might not translate to all languages? Perhaps something representing their trade or the goods that they trade?

Let's get couple more ideas on the table before we launch into voting.

[Yooha]

Will there be - according to your idea - merchants as well with this faction?

The barrel is a good symbol for representing merchant. Or maybe a bag with a coin or dollar sign on it?

And since the soldiers are guarding the Haven, the symbol could be some weapons (cannons or rifles) in a cross shape with the merchant symbol in the middle.

Weapons guarding goods!

Edited July 7, 2014 by Yooha

[Mister Phes]

Will there be - according to your idea - merchants as well with this faction?

The Haven Guard is intended to be peripheral to the Merchants so they'd have their own flag and insignia.

But so as not to confuse the matter, let's focus on the Haven Guard for now.

[tedbeard]

The Haven Guard is intended to be peripheral to the Merchants so they'd have their own flag and insignia.

That is a strange assertion given that we are heavily basing this on the VOC. The Haven Guard are a part of the company and would operate under the company flag just as the military arms of the VOC and East India Company did. At most you would want the same "background" with a different badge. ie. the orange w/white saltire for both: crossed cannons for the guard and crossed anchors (as above) for the company (or alternatively simply the plain saltire without badge for the company).

In no case can you design them separately as they must at least complement each other.

[Capt Wolf]

That is what I was thinking: that the Haven Guard and the Merchants would operate under the same flag. If they are to have different flags, I agree with the idea that they should be different badges on the same background. I can mock up flags with the crossed cannons logo on the same four backgrounds and post them tonight.

[Capt Wolf]

OK, here are the four backgrounds with crossed cannons instead (I alternated between the two styles of crossed cannons logos):

FYI, the plastic is actually white, it just looks gray in the photo I'm using for the mock-ups, so the white in the designs would not be a printed color.

[David Thomsen]

I do like the saltire, but I think that stylistically, the diagonal cannons work better against a flag pattern that isn't also diagonal - they work better with the contrasting pattern of the horizontal or vertical stripes. Personally I think I would like the shaded cannon design against the vertical stripes, a combination not shown here.

Edited July 8, 2014 by David Thomsen

[Mister Phes]

The horizontal stripes is almost a recolour of the Imperial Guard flag which is too similar in my opinion.

[Capt Wolf]

I agree, the cannons with the horizontal stripes is much too similar to the Imperial Guard flag. And I'm not particularly fond of using any of the crossed cannon designs. What about crossed muskets instead of cannons, along with the same barrel and crown from the crossed anchors emblem? That would maintain the connection between the merchants and the Haven Guard, but give the Guard a more military feel.

[2maxwell]

So the merchants could have anchors, the guards have muskets, with both having the barrel and crown? I like that. One other thing we could do is give the merchants and guard the same background, but have one be inverted.

Edited July 8, 2014 by 2maxwell

[Capt Wolf]

Here's a quick attempt at a crossed muskets emblem that uses the crown and barrel from the crossed anchors emblem, placed on a saltire and on vertical stripes:

Edited July 9, 2014 by Capt Wolf

[TalonCard]

I'm really loving the saltire background on the flag, since we haven't really seen that before, and I adore the idea of connecting the merchant faction to the Imperial Trading Post ship.

However, I'm not sure about ditching the anchors for the Guard and keeping the barrel as the common element. Both the Haven Guard and merchants would be ocean going, but the barrel has chiefly mercantile associations. Why not keep the crossed anchors, and substitute something else in the center? Maybe a lion or falcon, as a throwback to the Castle sets? Or something ocean related, like a sea shell or a dolphin.

TC

[David Thomsen]

I think the crossed rifles against the saltire has the same problem with the diagonal background matching the diagonal foreground...

Maybe we should discuss what we actually want as part of the flag. So far we have cannons, rifles, anchors, a crown, a barrel, and various animals possibly referencing old Castle sets... What else? Cutlasses? Maybe a bit too piratical. A mermaid with two tails? Maybe only appropriate for the import of coffee...

[2maxwell]

I agree, the muskets dont look any better than the cannons. What if we keep the crossed anchors but have a shield in the middle instead of the barrel for the guard? The crown could be on top or on the shield itself.

[Mister Phes]

So the merchants could have anchors, the guards have muskets, with both having the barrel and crown?

I'm thinking this as well. It makes more sense for the Merchants to have anchors and the Haven Guards to have muskets or cannons since they're the military faction.

Also, the crossed anchors ties in the sail of the "cutter" from the Imperial Trading Post, so its a clever element of continuity.

[David Thomsen]

I didn't realise the anchors, barrel and crown were from an official Lego set... I was nowhere near privileged enough as a kid to get something like the Imperial Trading Post. Makes me feel a bit silly for criticising the proportions earlier...

This weekend I might try designing an 'original' design to go on the flag. I didn't realise no one had done that yet. It might just be a modification of the anchors, barrel and crown, though.

[tedbeard]

I'm thinking this as well. It makes more sense for the Merchants to have anchors and the Haven Guards to have muskets or cannons since they're the military faction.

Also, the crossed anchors ties in the sail of the "cutter" from the Imperial Trading Post, so its a clever element of continuity.

Yes, I think this is the way to go. I love the barrel to represent the mercantile aspect and the crossed cannons (which I think look OK on the saltire) for the guard.

[Capt Wolf]

An alternative to replacing the crossed anchors could be replacing the barrel instead, perhaps with a shield. It helps maintain the general composition of the original.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Capt Wolf

[2maxwell]

An alternative to replacing the crossed anchors could be replacing the barrel instead, perhaps with a shield. It helps maintain the general composition of the original.

This is the best idea I think. What if one of the flags was white saltire on orange and the other was orange on white, to differentiate them more?

[Matthias]

An other alterative is to put the merchants flag in the left corner. To show what I mean here the flags of the german navy of the past. The normal flag is shown in the corner.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Matthias

[Yooha]

My opinion is, that if we are thinking in two different flags - one for the merchant and one for the guards - they have to be instantly regocnizable, even in the level of colors. If you see the two flags below, can you tell in a second which one is which?

I think not. These are meant for children and they won't care about fine details like an anchor or a cannon when they want to differentiate who sails under which flag.

I think in both flags, one color has to dominate, and the others should be present only in smaller extent - let's say mainly white for the merchant and orange for the guards.

Like this maybe?

Edited July 10, 2014 by Yooha

[Mister Phes]

This is the best idea I think. What if one of the flags was white saltire on orange and the other was orange on white, to differentiate them more?

You mean invert the orange and white like this?

vs

[Bob De Quatre]

Do the merchants really need a different flag?

I think kids can understand that a "military" faction have a flag, but I'm not sure about merchants.

Anyway, my preference goes to these flags:

[tedbeard]

Anyway, my preference goes to these flags:

You are right, these two designs complement each other nicely, are obviously connected and yet are easily distinguished. We need more choices like this in the final poll.

Edited July 10, 2014 by tedbeard