brig question

[Captain Golden Hook]

as far as i thought, a brig is a 2 masted ship with a taller mast in back and a big gaff sail. and a brigintine was a mini frigate with a interupted gun deck for the rigging attachment. however i read somthing recently that sail brig was short for brigantine. can some ship expert clear this up please?

[emilstorm]

Google and Wikipedia, they are your friends :) http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brig, note the first 2 lines of text :)

[Sebeus I]

You'll find contrary definitions on the internet, which is actually natural because there are different definitions throughout history and places.

This is what I accept;

• A brig and/or brigantine is a two masted ship with the main mast taller than the fore.
  

• The difference between a brig and a brigantine lies in its sail plan, I conclude from this that they are kind of the same ship, which makes the term brig(antine) for me acceptable.
  

• The term brig or brigantine does not specify anything about armament or gun deck, unless you're talking about a brig-of-war (according to the british rating system).
  

• A frigate is a ship with a continu gun deck throughout the length of the ship.
  

Anyway, it assume it wouldn't be much trouble to re-rigg a brig to a brigantine or vice versa so I find it acceptable to generalize the term brig and brigantine to the same thing.

[kurigan]

As usual, Wikipedia proves insufficient to fairly represent the myriad instances, idioms and variations these terms can encompass. The short version:

Size doesn't matter as theses terms only describe the sail plan, though there is a certain convention on size thresholds for the given rigs.

Brig- is a two masted vessel, square rigged on both masts while sporting a large gaff main sail. This main sail may or may not be paired with a square main sail as well.

Brigantine- is a two masted vessel square rigged on the formast and for-and-aft rigged on main.

Barquentine- is a three (or more) masted vessel carrying square sails on only the formast and gaff sails on rest aft-ward.

Now the long version: 

Go back more than a hundred years and you didn't have large corporations innovating within commerce driven industries. Technology evolved, not as a matter of market demand but through practice and long use. No where does this seem more prevalent than in the maritime culture, where generations upon generations through the centuries would have all used essentially similar equipment to ply their trade. Granted; grand spanish treasure galleons seem a far cry from spritly Baltimore clippers, but a sailor native to one  would not be long confused, if suddenly displaced to the deck of the other.

These terms developed over time, not as stead fast rules in a book of standards, but as a means to distinguish one thing from another. Because sailors were not typically a well educated lot, there's was an oral tradition. To say for sure that a given term means this and only this is naive. The determination depends entirely on the time and place where in the thing is observed, and who the observer is for that matter. One of my favorite examples of how such nautical terms change over time is the pinnace. 

The replica vessel Kalmar Nykel is a reproduction of a 17th century ship, which ferried passengers from Sweden to the new world.  In her time she was called a pinnace and could be describes as essentially similar in shape and function to a galleon, but significantly smaller. By the 19th century such ships fell out of use and somewhere along the way the term pinnace came to refer to open boats with a lug sail and oars; often a ship's boat.

It is a common misconception that the term Brig came about from lazy sailors shortening the term Brigantine. The "antine" was actually added-on to distinguish later adaptations to the Brig sail plan. 

From our modern perspective, driving around in automobiles and carrying computers in our pockets, it's easy to think of these  contraptions of sticks, bed sheets and clothes lines as simple and all-of-a-kind. Sailing, in all it's myriad forms through out history has been a complex science developed and explored through trial-and-error. The plethora of sails, spars and ropes any one vessel may carry is entirely at the digression of her master who will make his adjustments according to his idiom.

An interesting experience:

Whilst touring the deck of Amistad I inadvertently gave offense to one of her crew when I asked which vessel, her or Pride of Baltimore II, used a more historically accurate method for a particular function. Offended, but ever patient with the ignorant masses, the young man offered me an explanation that just stuck with me. It went something like this:

"Every ship is different. Along the way you just figure things out. If what you do, to solve a problem, works then you stick with it and that's what you wind up doing. I've sailed on a few schooners now and no two do things exactly the same way and really you don't get more historic than that."

What he meant with that last part was to relate how sailors in the past were on their own, no different than those on replicas now, and he was right.There was no rule book for how things were done, no warranties to worry about voiding. They stuck with what worked even if they were the only ship in the world which did it that way. 

An excersice:

Ignoring the size, shape or function of a hypothetical hull, but agreeing that it is a wooden sailing vessel, let's stick two masts in her and play around with our options. 

If we hang square sails on both masts and add a large gaff headed sail to rear most mast we have a "brig". If we take the square sails off that rear most mast, leaving the gaff, and adding a stay sail in the gap between masts she becomes a "brigantine". Change out that stay sail for another gaff sail, this one hanging from the formast backwards, and now she a "hermaphrodite brig". Take the square main course off the formast leaving only top sails and she become a "topsail schooner." Now go and shrink that rear most mast and shove it farther back and you have a "ketch". 

That was fun, but simplistic. Along the way we ignored such significant considerations as number of head sails, hard or soft footed gaff sails or the inclusion or exclusion of a snow. The point is that ships are complex, multifaceted machines which can not often be so rigidly classified by any one element of their constitution.  

I'll be the first to tell you, that a simple google search can do wonders to educate, but you must be clever and diligent. The Internet  is full of misinformation. Information is the most valuable commodity in the world, and even if no one is charging for it, you will still need to work for the good stuff. There is no website where you can go and just learn about ships. It just not that simple. Look at the litany I've written in response to such a seemingly anxious question, and though some of it may seem only indirectly related it will all contribute to a greater understanding of the thing as a whole. I'm not a rich man to be paying for information in books, nor have I the fortune to be sea born learning ship board. I've educated my self, thus far, primarily through the Internet, but the information I absorbed didn't really click until I started applying it and going back over it with specific questions. Looking for solutions with my models or looking up terms from nautical fiction is what helped me get below the surface to good quality information. Be careful of your sources though. Look at more than what seems the simple answer and don't assume repetition means validation. 

[Captain Golden Hook]

wow..... thank you everyone! such detailed explinations! i never know there were so many different kinds of similar ships!