Mister Phes

Ambassador Project - Defining the Factions

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- Merchants:

About the name (West Brick Trading Company), I'll prefer something like "Oceanic Trade, Army & Navy", A.K.A. OCTAN... the same colors for octan but without the logo... just to keep some "history" inside the LEGO Universe.

This would actually be a brilliant idea, if not for the fact, as The_Cook mentioned, that it would only work in English.

-Smugglers:

Insterd of crackers, The Smugglers have to smuggling something more important, so, that's opens two chances to profit whit. "something expensive" because the taxes charged by the Greedy Merchant Lord(s) or the company (this could be coffee...expensive coffee like in The Lego Movie, or goods of any kind), and the second one, "something ilegal", I've been thinking of it, and TLG puts (rum) bottles in previous sets... so, TLG exposed the "alcoholism" to the kids, it could bring the Prohibition enforced by the troops.

I would keep away from alcohol, and probably have treasure as the smuggled goods. Maybe the merchants (with the help of the Guard) want to gather all the gold or jewels for themselves, so the smugglers are trying to slip some gold under the merchants' noses? Though this scenario might call for some villagers/islanders/clients the smugglers are actually smuggling the goods to?

-The Heaven Guard

(I'm with people unhappy with the name pirate_sceptic.gif ).

I'd be unhappy too if I thought the name was HEAVEN Guard rather than HAVEN Guard. pirate_tong.gif Seriously, a poll determine the faction names might be the best way to settle this.

But why green? There is already green Imperial Armada torsos. A few posts back I was attempting to suggest orange is more synonymous with Dutch heritage and provide examples of how it's been used in other pirate fiction to represent the Dutch.

While orange is indeed a color associated with the Dutch, I see several problems with it:

1) IMO the LEGO orange color is rather garish and I dare say "clownish", and doesn't convey the importance and gravitas of an official uniformed military force.

2) I'm not aware that the Dutch actually wore orange uniforms? At most, I recall they wore orange sashes in the 17th century.

3) Dark Orange would seem like a more sombre and distinguished choice of color, but I'm afraid that would be too similar with the proposed earth tones of the smugglers (one of the few things people in this thread generally agree on).

My proposed primary color for the Haven Guard is either:

1) green (so what if it's been used for one Armada torso 17 years ago)

2) white, with an appropriate secondary color around the buttons and for the pants, since all-white figs would look bland

3) dark blue (without the red highlights seen on the CMF revolutionary soldier, in this case the secondary color could be white or gold) - the safe choice of an immediatly recognizable naval force

Another option would be to make the faction aesthetic set more in the 17th century, without the rigid uniforms, but IMO that would make it harder to distinguish them from the other factions. One uniformed faction seems like a good way to go for immediate recognition.

As other posters have mentioned, including Brig. Brick above, they would need essentially the same color scheme as the merchants, so at what point are they a discernible faction?

Not necesarily, the consensus seems to be for earth tones for the smugglers and gaudy colors for the merchants. My idea is this:

- ragged cothes and earth tones for the smugglers, browns, tans, bleys, and black for their ships and buildings - no gaudy decoration

- a primary color and another secondary color for the Guard, their ships and buildings would use these colors as highlights

- vibrant and gaudy colors for the merchants: purple, orange, any color not used by the Guard

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While orange is indeed a color associated with the Dutch, I see several problems with it:

1) IMO the LEGO orange color is rather garish and I dare say "clownish", and doesn't convey the importance and gravitas of an official uniformed military force.

2) I'm not aware that the Dutch actually wore orange uniforms? At most, I recall they wore orange sashes in the 17th century.

3) Dark Orange would seem like a more sombre and distinguished choice of color, but I'm afraid that would be too similar with the proposed earth tones of the smugglers (one of the few things people in this thread generally agree on).

We're not aiming for historical accuracy and rather than make assumptions, I've devised some quick mockups by placing the 2009 Imperial Guard torso design over an orange, green and lime torso:

post-273-0-95244500-1400774045_thumb.jpg

So now we have a vague idea of a possible torso... Which colour seems best suited? Green may be at a handicap because they blue doesn't contrast enough and would be better substituted with another colour.

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We're not aiming for historical accuracy and rather than make assumptions, I've devised some quick mockups by placing the 2009 Imperial Guard torso design over an orange, green and lime torso:

post-273-0-95244500-1400774045_thumb.jpg

So now we have a vague idea of a possible torso... Which colour seems best suited? Green may be at a handicap because they blue doesn't contrast enough and would be better substituted with another colour.

Thank you for the pictures. After seeing it and consulting with my two TFOL's (13 & 16), who both prefer historical, that the Dutch did indeed where orange and the orange torso you pictured would be desirable as the Haven Guard uniforms. I would also like to suggest that while the earthy colors are great for smugglers, the would need to look somewhat like poorer merchants so torn and tattered clothing might not work.

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We're not aiming for historical accuracy and rather than make assumptions, I've devised some quick mockups by placing the 2009 Imperial Guard torso design over an orange, green and lime torso:

post-273-0-95244500-1400774045_thumb.jpg

So now we have a vague idea of a possible torso... Which colour seems best suited? Green may be at a handicap because they blue doesn't contrast enough and would be better substituted with another colour.

The orange looks best, I think. Not only does it look pleasant on a torso by itself, but I think it will work a bit better with the other colours likely to be present in a Pirates theme, while green may stand out too much.

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I agree, choosing another colour is the best way to avoid the red/blue argue. Red and blue coats have been done before so its time to do something different.

But why green? There is already green Imperial Armada torsos.

Yep, and that's partially why I chose it. It is both an homage to a "classic" and a way to increase the available options as people can augment the troops with older figs.

While orange is indeed a color associated with the Dutch, I see several problems with it:

1) IMO the LEGO orange color is rather garish and I dare say "clownish", and doesn't convey the importance and gravitas of an official uniformed military force.

[snip]

3) Dark Orange would seem like a more sombre and distinguished choice of color, but I'm afraid that would be too similar with the proposed earth tones of the smugglers (one of the few things people in this thread generally agree on).

I think these two reasons are ones I share. Green is simply a getter choice for contrast and style.

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I think these two reasons are ones I share. Green is simply a getter choice for contrast and style.

Are you writing that after viewing the mock-ups? There's only been two responses so far, but orange is currently the most favoured:

Haven_Guard_Torso.jpg

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I agree that orange looks good, but like you said, green is at a disadvantage because it doesn't go with blue very well. What if the blue was replaced with gold? That could make it look better, though I still think I would favour the orange.

On the other hand, for those of us who would be mixing these sets with those of previous years, the orange might be too similar to red. Green hasn't been used before.

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On the other hand, for those of us who would be mixing these sets with those of previous years, the orange might be too similar to red. Green hasn't been used before.

Some points:

  • Green was used for the Imperial Armada minifigures.
  • I'd suggest using a different torso design and not recycling the 2009 Imperial Guard design. I just used that to create a quick mock-up so I didn't have to spend hours creating something new.

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I agree that orange looks good, but like you said, green is at a disadvantage because it doesn't go with blue very well. What if the blue was replaced with gold? That could make it look better, though I still think I would favour the orange.

On the other hand, for those of us who would be mixing these sets with those of previous years, the orange might be too similar to red. Green hasn't been used before.

That orange is similar to red, is not for all a disadvantage. I would maybe use theam as a spezial (differend) platoon or arm of service of the redcoats. But I could not intgrate green. Therefore I prefer orange!

Edited by Matthias130182

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To differentiate orange torso from the red torso, maybe we could use a different color for the arms, like dark red

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Before we get too concerned about the red and orange torsos being too similar, can anyone take a photo of a red and orange torso side by side?

I've incorporated a red torso into the mock-ups and brightened the orange torso as it was taken in dimmer lighting, but there is still a discrepancy.

With a different torso design they're going to be sufficiently different from each other.

post-273-0-43251000-1400841409_thumb.jpg

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Orange with blue detail looks fantastic, but the suggestion of green with gold I think would be equally good.

While I'm still not totally sold on the distinction between Smugglers and Merchants resting on garish versus earthy colors, it is the simplest answer.

I do like The_Cook's mention of a Robin Hood-type conflict-maybe the garish colors represent only the (corrupt) East Brick Trading Co (not necessarily allmerchants), and the smugglers are the Robin Hood type? That could lead to a fun set where the smugglers' leader could disguise himself as part of the EBTC.

Sorry, I am getting ahead of myself. Again.

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Here are my suggestions. Since it seems everyone is more interested in the Merchant's and not so sold on the other two factions, perhaps we can tweak the factions a little to make everything work better.

The Merchants:

- Consider the scenario to be similar to the American colony prior to the Revolutionary War. The Merchants are a carribean colony of some nation, but they are tired of being oppressed, being told what they can/cannot sell, and watching all their profits going directly to the main land. Some merchants support the main land, while others want to see change and are prepared to take action to win independence (or make a profit)

- The item(s) they are trading would have to be distinct in my opinion. More than just a couple of 1x1 blocks. I would also say there should only be one traded good, with varying quantities in different size sets (ie: 1 coconut in small sets; 6 in large, etc). As for what that item is, I am not 100% sure. I cannot help but think fod stuff, like fish/bread/etc but that doesn't have a New World feel. Will ponder some more. Coins/gems should also be included in the cargo to give more tempting target for pirates

- I like the idea of bright colors for merchant clothes, with well kept buildings and ships.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Smugglers (rename to blockade runners, revolutionaries, rebels, etc)

- These aren't as exciting as pirates/other factions in my opinion. Cunning and stealth just don't translate well into Lego play. Say what you want about Han Solo, but most of what made him a good smuggler on screen was developed through means that cannot be communicated in bricks [ie: tense situations, whitty remarks, etc]. Also notice that besides getting a few people out of a tight situation, they never showed him actually smuggling goods, instead they focused on him battling the Empire with pistols and dogfights.

- That being said, there are opportunities to make this faction the main play feature that ties everything together.

---- 1.) We make every merchant ship/building/etc have a hidden compartment, but instructions put nothing into it, leaving it to be filled by goods from smuggler sets. (Builder decides whether the merchant support the loyalists or the rebels)

---- 2.) We make the smugglers have unique items to sell. It should be something that would be cool to have, but normally frowned upon to own (ie: islander vodoo dolls, mystical crystal skulls, rare animals, etc.) Would make these the key treasures of the whole series, and give reason for the smugglers to want to get past the blockade/guards. We also maybe consider having them smuggle in/out weapons.

---- 3.) We drop the cunning aspect and arm the smugglers like pirates. The merchant hiding holes, and maybe a few smugglers with two sided heads to mimic disguises (as much as I HATE two sided heads) would act as the cunning/secrecy part of the faction. By dropping the cunning/secrecy thing by giving the smugglers armed boats, weapons, etc we can make them equiped to stand against the imperial troops without seeming too out of place. Sure some sets can be lightly armed, but the tweaking of the theme into a revolution aspect allows the builder to decide how they are going to fight the war.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Haven Guard:

- I like the name from the vantage point of regular soldiers guarding a port against normal smugglers, illegal immigrants, etc. But under the revolution guise it would not sound as good. Perhaps renaming to something along the lines of Colonial Guard, or something like that would be more fitting.

- From the Revolution perspective, these would be the Main Land's troops sent to enforce rules and guard the interests of the crown. How they do that would be up to the builder

---- Still justifies including soldiers in some Merchant sets, and opens up the ability for more militaristic feel vs the Imperial Armada sort of sets where it is more miniture guard houses.

- I prefer more muted, natural colors for the troops. I am color blind so I cannot tell you which color of the models looks better, but I prefer the color of the far left one in the last post by Mister Phes. I just don't the design. Perhaps something along these lines? They are soldiers from Austria circa 1700's so timely. I prefer the middle one, then the one on the far left, but the one on the right is more along the lines of the imperial soldiers we have seen so far

post-11258-0-84036400-1400869033_thumb.jpg

Anyways, those are just my thoughts

Edited by Comrade Commander

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I'd be unhappy too if I thought the name was HEAVEN Guard rather than HAVEN Guard. pirate_tong.gif Seriously, a poll determine the faction names might be the best way to settle this.

you can bet that I read "heaven" instead of "Haven"... my bad!!! pirate_laugh_new.gifpirate_laugh_new.gifpirate_laugh_new.gif

the Haven Guards: green coats, brown coats, orange coats... why not black coats?

1.jpg

merchants

common sailors, civil merchants, with common supplies, packages and edibles

3.jpg

smugglers: I've thought about them, and of course is a band, but like space police III, they could be several important smugglers with proper names: "Rum Rick", "Wally Weapon", "False-documents Danny", like the heads of a "cartel", with henchmen and a "trusty second on board" guy or gal.

2.jpg

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Blackcoats could work, but they would need a bright secondary color like red or white (or orange!) for trimming, pants and the like; all black seems too dark.

I might be more merited if the Guard were implicitly the "lawful evil" guys.

Green with gold or red (like the CMF revolutionary, but green or dark green instead of dark blue) could also look good.

Maybe have a poll about this issue as well?

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Maybe have a poll about this issue as well?

Yes, we may need a Haven Guard poll containing two questions:

  1. Which is the most suitable name?
    • Haven Guard
    • Company Guards
    • The Revenue
    • Colonial Guard

[*]What colour should their uniforms be?

  • Orange
  • Green
  • Lime Green
  • Black

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I posted this pic earlier in the initial topic.

ClassicImperialFront.jpg

I don´t want to show another color-option but I just wanted to show that colors like sand blue (sand green/red or similar) work pretty well if mixed with the right colors for hats/epaulettes/etc.

Instead of orange dark flesh might work too.

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Yes, we may need a Haven Guard poll containing two questions:

  1. Which is the most suitable name?
    • Haven Guard
    • Company Guards
    • The Revenue
    • Colonial Guard

[*]What colour should their uniforms be?

  • Orange
  • Green
  • Lime Green
  • Black

Maybe add an "other" entry in each poll and ask for a constructive proposition of name or color, with arguments for the name and maybe mock-ups for the colors.

And I think "Colonial Guard" is a bad idea, as at least in France colonialism leads to slave trade and independance conflicts... pirate_sceptic.gif

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You should consider dark orange for the Haven Guards.

973pb1274c01.jpg973pb1068c01.jpg

It's fairly striking without being particularly gaudy.

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Are you writing that after viewing the mock-ups? There's only been two responses so far, but orange is currently the most favoured:

Yes I did and I stand by my preference thank you very much.

I would also add that you cannot say something is, "most favoured" based on the TWO responses especially if one of them is my response. I think you are letting your bias show. ;)

Yes, we may need a Haven Guard poll containing two questions:

That makes sense. We are never going to come to a 100% consensus on every detail so polling seems like the best option.

You should consider dark orange for the Haven Guards.

973pb1274c01.jpg973pb1068c01.jpg

It's fairly striking without being particularly gaudy.

You know what, I could totally support dark orange. It is a nice colour for that period and makes the soldiers look a lot less like orange popsicles.

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This is a good point. Who will define the poll options, and how? Orange, Dark Orange, Green and Black seem to be the ones most talked about. Lime Green, Olive Green, Dark Green, Dark Turquoise, Blue, Dark Blue, Dark Red and and White have been suggested (the last one only by me). These could go onder the option "other", though by definition I guess lumping them into an "other" category already created a strong bias against them.

The name poses a similar problem. There are several permutations based on what peeple here suggested: Haven/Revenue/Company/Rpyal/Imperial/etc Guard/Fleet/etc. Will only specific mentions be put up for a vote or also their permutations?

This is only based on a quick skimming of this thread, I didnt actually count the color/name mentions and alternatives.

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I do have to say that light orange and light green are pretty nice. Just remember that we're making a kids' toy and these colors have to catch their eyes. What we like and what they like are two different things.

Just to have more choices and make people actually think of other possible paterns I'd add more colors to the poll - like spanish yellow and gray ( see pics below ) to the poll.

74532.jpg

dcyxw.jpg

Edited by Mazin

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Wouldn't the minifigures' skin colour make yellow look a bit weird?

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