SheepEater

Future Set Wishes and Speculation

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2 hours ago, Ngoc Nguyen said:

Assuming the leak is true, the flagship will have 2137 parts and cost 249.99$. I think it's a huge machine with 4 wheels. 

What I can think of:

- Backhoe 
- Mining dump truck
- Biggest reach stacker
- Biggest forklift
- Biggest telehandler
- Tractor
- Front loader

The 42129 Zetros is a 4-wheel truck with medium-sized tires and already costs 299.99$. This flagship only costs 249.99$, so I think it won't have any fancy functions.

As we just got the 42114 I think we can rule out a Mining Dump Truck for the next 2 years...

The reach stacker or big telehandler would be very cool... same goes for a real heavy forklift.

If the rumored 42144 lifting helicopter is true, maybe we get the dumb battery box, as this would match the 42113 piece count and price point. 

Maybe some completely bizarre ones like a slag transport :D

METEC-2019-Kamag-Transporttechnik-GmbH-C

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4 hours ago, Ngoc Nguyen said:

There's a logging truck in 2H 2022 at 119.99$ for you.

Oof, that is definitely a concerningly low price point :S

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15 hours ago, Ngoc Nguyen said:

The possibilities for the model of the heavy lift helicopter are only:

- Traditional helicopter with one main rotor and one tail rotor
- Tandem rotor helicopter
- Skeletal helicopter like the Erickson Skycrane

I've just found out another wacky helicopter: Sikorsky CH-37 Mojave. It's the predecessor of the Skycrane and the Sikorsky CH-53.

Would be cool to see a helicopter with an actual swashplate mechanism.

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On 1/12/2022 at 1:30 AM, Kaanere said:

Would be cool to see a helicopter with an actual swashplate mechanism.

Like 9396?

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2 hours ago, howitzer said:

Like 9396?

I do love my 9396, but that one only has collective control (still an improvement over most Technic helicopters). I meant one with collective and cyclic control.

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On 1/11/2022 at 10:27 AM, Ngoc Nguyen said:

On second thought I don't think a backhoe is possible at that price point. In addition to driving and steering, a backhoe has at least 5 functions:

- Front bucket lift
- Front bucket tilt
- Rear arm lift
- Rear bucket tilt
- Rear arm slew
 

Those functions can't be achieved with one hub, and one hub is most likely at that price point.

Actually it could be with two modes (I never saw the backhoe which easilly runs and digs at the same time) so let's imagine:

- drive

- steer

- front bucket (it may have a complicated geometry so lifts and then tilts when reaches the higherst point. But the motor stops and the highest point and tilts the bucket only when the second button is pressed)

- land the outriggers and switch to digging mode

In the digging mode:

- lift the main arm

- unfold the secondary arm

- tilt the rear bucket

- raise the outriggers and switch to the drive mode.

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@Void_S How do you slew the backhoe though? If you wanted to do it with four motors then surely it’d be better to have the bucket and stick be connected, like they did for the recent excavator.

I think that a proper RC flagship backhoe needs a 6 port hub with five motors.

Edited by Bartybum

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Ooops, I forgot about the slew, my bad. I was looking at the excavator image and it turns the whole body, while backhoe defintelly needs all four motors to operate the digging feature. So, right, it needs more then 4 ports. Having the bucket and stick connected will limit the playability alot. Or have a manual switch like 42070 had but it was a silly idea too... 

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I'd love to see LEGO offer a RC backhoe, and it's one of the few Technic sets I'd be willing to pay out the nose for.   I'm currently in the process of building one, and I think using six motors is the best method.

Here's how I have my backhoe setup thus far:

I have six motors with a three position gearbox.  Three motors go directly to functions and three motors run through the gearbox.  The breakdown is like this:

Motor 1: Steering
Motor 2: Rear Stick
Motor 3: Gearbox position

When gearbox is in position 1, the following are engaged:
Motor 4: Front bucket up/down
Motor 5: Front bucket curl
Motor 6: Drive

When gearbox is in position 2, the following are engaged:
Motor 4: Boom slew
Motor 5: Rear bucket curl
Motor 6: Rear boom

When gearbox is in position 3, the following are engaged:
Motor 4: Left stabilizer
Motor 5: Right stabilizer
Motor 6: (Nothing)

Five motors could be used if I wanted to run the steering through the gearbox, but I think that would allow too much slop in the steering, so I opted to go with six motors instead.  So, with the gearbox in position 1,  I can drive around and use the loader without switching the gearbox.  With the gearbox in position 2, I can run all the boom functions without switching the gearbox either. 

I'll be using two hubs, but if LEGO were to offer this as a set, I think a single hub with at least six ports would be more ideal.   I'm finding it very difficult to fit six motors, two hubs, AWD, pendular axle, and a fake engine in a backhoe.   It's a very dense build.  I may get burnt out before I finish it. :pir_wacko:  I'd like to add a telescopic stick, but I don't think I can build a boom compact enough, so I will probably forgo that idea.  It would be easier if LEGO offered extension wires and I could put a motor in the boom, but since they don't offer PU extension wires, all motors are going in the chassis. 

Anyway, maybe once I have more progress made, I'll post a WIP thread.

Just my $.02.

Edited by dhc6twinotter

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Im just gonna say there's no way there's gonna be a decent a flagship backhoe with 1 C+ hub (4 ports). If it has 1 hub, then it will turn out subpar: some functions will be either linked, or omitted, or controlled manually. I do hope TLG's not gonna cut corners when it comes to this one and instead use two hubs and charge 400 EUR for it.

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10 minutes ago, Ngoc Nguyen said:

Im just gonna say there's no way there's gonna be a decent a flagship backhoe with 1 C+ hub (4 ports). If it has 1 hub, then it will turn out subpar: some functions will be either linked, or omitted, or controlled manually. I do hope TLG's not gonna cut corners when it comes to this one and instead use two hubs and charge 400 EUR for it.

I don't have a problem with the idea of partially manual/partially RC backhoe, but I'm not sure how to configure the functions (at least drive and steer in manual, but what about other stuff?) so that one hub is enough...

Fully manual pneumatic backhoe with compressor would probably be better, but I don't think TLG will do that as it has already been done (8455, though it was long time ago) and they seem to be set on making their flagships motorized in the recent years, except for UCS cars.

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32 minutes ago, howitzer said:

Fully manual pneumatic backhoe with compressor would probably be better

Dito. I mean, there is a dumb battery box available waiting to be used. :D

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3 hours ago, Ngoc Nguyen said:

Im just gonna say there's no way there's gonna be a decent a flagship backhoe with 1 C+ hub (4 ports). If it has 1 hub, then it will turn out subpar: some functions will be either linked, or omitted, or controlled manually. I do hope TLG's not gonna cut corners when it comes to this one and instead use two hubs and charge 400 EUR for it.

What about Allanps dream pneumati......ah you already know the rest!

2 hubs, 8 motors, 3 years in development probably!

JCB 3CX (the brand so iconic, that when people see any brand of backhoe they call it a JCB, at least in the UK they do)

jcb-3cx-4t-pdf-service-manuals.jpg

1 port used for auto compressor, 1 port used to switch between front and rear controls (which could also rotate the seat so you can see which control mode you are in)

front controls: 4 wheel drive with fake engine, steering, RC valve control for bucket lift, bucket tilt, bucket open and close, rear stabilisers 

rear controls: RC valve controls for back hoe side shift, slew, arm up/down, boom up/down, boom telescoping, bucket. 

Of course Howitzers non RC version of this would also be great. 12 pneumatic functions plus 4 wheel drive, fake engine and steering. Would be a record 15 major functions (plus any other minor details such as opening doors, tilting front axle and such). But one of the many big challenges with a back hoe is it's weird shape, leaving not much room for anything. The tiny front hood would be taken up by the engine and possible compressor, the main body has about half it's volume taken up by the rear wheels, so the 2 hub 8 motor full RC version really would have to be massive, minimum zetros wheels (maybe Claas wheels) at the front with bigger than Class wheels at the rear. The only set so far (other than the BWE) that really needs to be over 4 or 5 thousand pieces. In this future set wishes and speculation topic, of everything TLG could ever produce, a huge RC fully pneumatic JCB 3CX is my biggest wish. Out of everything this is the one I want them to spend the time to get right more than anything else. But imagine a model possibly bigger and heavier than 42100 being able to do this!

Moore-JCB.jpg

I'd by 4 so I can do this!

Edited by allanp

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I rarely see backhoes like the ones pictured above here anymore. The ones I do see are of the Huddig/Lännen variety. Such a construction might be easier to fit parts needed for RC functionality into while keeing proportions somewhat correct.

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I made a C+ backhoe with one hub, four motors and nine functions.

one motor for steering

one motor for switching gearbox

two motors for driving functions in the gearbox, so a total of 2x4 = 8 functions.

2 for frontshovel

1 drive

3 for rear shovel

1 rotate rear shovel

1 stabilizers

I finished this model over a year ago, but I am still waiting for a way to share a C+ program. This is becoming a major pain for the C+ system for me. It is such a promising platform, but it is severely let down with the support for it.

I was planning to only post the model once I have a shareable program, but maybe I should give up waiting.

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20 minutes ago, Jeroen Ottens said:

I made a C+ backhoe with one hub, four motors and nine functions.

one motor for steering

one motor for switching gearbox

two motors for driving functions in the gearbox, so a total of 2x4 = 8 functions.

2 for frontshovel

1 drive

3 for rear shovel

1 rotate rear shovel

1 stabilizers

I finished this model over a year ago, but I am still waiting for a way to share a C+ program. This is becoming a major pain for the C+ system for me. It is such a promising platform, but it is severely let down with the support for it.

I was planning to only post the model once I have a shareable program, but maybe I should give up waiting.

IMHO you should present this model, despite od missing shareable program.

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1 hour ago, 1gor said:

IMHO you should present this model, despite od missing shareable program.

You can share screenshots of the program.  It’s not as good as sharing the program itself but it would make reasonable for anyone to recreate the program.

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17 hours ago, dhc6twinotter said:

I'd love to see LEGO offer a RC backhoe, and it's one of the few Technic sets I'd be willing to pay out the nose for.   I'm currently in the process of building one, and I think using six motors is the best method.

Here's how I have my backhoe setup thus far:

I have six motors with a three position gearbox.  Three motors go directly to functions and three motors run through the gearbox.  The breakdown is like this:

Motor 1: Steering
Motor 2: Rear Stick
Motor 3: Gearbox position

When gearbox is in position 1, the following are engaged:
Motor 4: Front bucket up/down
Motor 5: Front bucket curl
Motor 6: Drive

When gearbox is in position 2, the following are engaged:
Motor 4: Boom slew
Motor 5: Rear bucket curl
Motor 6: Rear boom

When gearbox is in position 3, the following are engaged:
Motor 4: Left stabilizer
Motor 5: Right stabilizer
Motor 6: (Nothing)

Five motors could be used if I wanted to run the steering through the gearbox, but I think that would allow too much slop in the steering, so I opted to go with six motors instead.  So, with the gearbox in position 1,  I can drive around and use the loader without switching the gearbox.  With the gearbox in position 2, I can run all the boom functions without switching the gearbox either. 

I'll be using two hubs, but if LEGO were to offer this as a set, I think a single hub with at least six ports would be more ideal.   I'm finding it very difficult to fit six motors, two hubs, AWD, pendular axle, and a fake engine in a backhoe.   It's a very dense build.  I may get burnt out before I finish it. :pir_wacko:  I'd like to add a telescopic stick, but I don't think I can build a boom compact enough, so I will probably forgo that idea.  It would be easier if LEGO offered extension wires and I could put a motor in the boom, but since they don't offer PU extension wires, all motors are going in the chassis. 

Anyway, maybe once I have more progress made, I'll post a WIP thread.

Just my $.02.

That's three three-output gearboxes. That's quite a lot of real estate to take up :S

Have you considered having two modes instead, with outriggers bound to the gearbox? I've said this idea somewhere up here a while back but I'll repeat it:

Front loader mode:

  • Drive
  • Arm
  • Bucket

Backhoe mode:

  • Slew
  • Boom
  • Stick
  • Bucket

You could then have steering either as an independent function with a sixth motor to avoid issues with slack as you mentioned, or you could have it as a fourth function in the front loader mode. If you're worried about slack then you could also use actuator steering for greater precision. Good thing about this solution is that you consolidate the outriggers into the gearbox itself, rather than needing a whole other gearbox for them. You could gear down the rotary changeover catches so that when your outriggers are up the catches are in driving position, but when they're down the catches are in backhoe position. You might have some issues with immense torque acting on the gearbox but you can implement a linear clutch (god bless that piece holy shit it's fantastic) somewhere in the drivetrain.

Another good thing is that instead of having three separate three-output gearboxes, you'll have four two-output gearboxes, the complexity of which might be greatly reduced to give you a bit more space.

Edited by Bartybum

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10 hours ago, Glaysche said:

You can share screenshots of the program.  It’s not as good as sharing the program itself but it would make reasonable for anyone to recreate the program.

I was referring on physical model; on backhoe :wink:

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20 hours ago, Jeroen Ottens said:

<snip>

I finished this model over a year ago, but I am still waiting for a way to share a C+ program. This is becoming a major pain for the C+ system for me. It is such a promising platform, but it is severely let down with the support for it.

I was planning to only post the model once I have a shareable program, but maybe I should give up waiting.

Sharing the program as a Python file is of course as easy as sharing any text file, but that requires writing the code in Python, rather than code blocks. (At least I'm not aware of any way to easily translate the code blocks into Python...)

Either way, I agree with others that sharing the model (even without the program) would be awesome.

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On 1/15/2022 at 10:01 AM, allanp said:

What about Allanps dream pneumati......ah you already know the rest!

2 hubs, 8 motors, 3 years in development probably!

JCB 3CX (the brand so iconic, that when people see any brand of backhoe they call it a JCB, at least in the UK they do)

1 port used for auto compressor, 1 port used to switch between front and rear controls (which could also rotate the seat so you can see which control mode you are in)

front controls: 4 wheel drive with fake engine, steering, RC valve control for bucket lift, bucket tilt, bucket open and close, rear stabilisers 

rear controls: RC valve controls for back hoe side shift, slew, arm up/down, boom up/down, boom telescoping, bucket. 

Of course Howitzers non RC version of this would also be great. 12 pneumatic functions plus 4 wheel drive, fake engine and steering. Would be a record 15 major functions (plus any other minor details such as opening doors, tilting front axle and such). But one of the many big challenges with a back hoe is it's weird shape, leaving not much room for anything. The tiny front hood would be taken up by the engine and possible compressor, the main body has about half it's volume taken up by the rear wheels, so the 2 hub 8 motor full RC version really would have to be massive, minimum zetros wheels (maybe Claas wheels) at the front with bigger than Class wheels at the rear. The only set so far (other than the BWE) that really needs to be over 4 or 5 thousand pieces. In this future set wishes and speculation topic, of everything TLG could ever produce, a huge RC fully pneumatic JCB 3CX is my biggest wish. Out of everything this is the one I want them to spend the time to get right more than anything else. But imagine a model possibly bigger and heavier than 42100 being able to do this!

I'd by 4 so I can do this! (JCB dancing tunnel pic)

Given that I've done pneumatics for many years, I thought I'd have a go.  I haven't done construction machinery for a long time, nor been "into yellow" as a Technic colour, but I have enough to try.

I would avoid compulsory phone control.  If there's RC to be had then it would be for drive and steering using a 2-port hub and the train handset, to keep the phone optional.
That way it avoids the enormous expense of too many hubs and motors.  Might include a battery-box hub for the constant-running functions like compressors and logic but I would be using PF 8878 LiPo for prototyping.
Avoiding full RC also allows the user to have fun with the pneumatics, rather than the absence of haptic feedback from the phone screen.  Yes, drive it around, but get down and play with it!

JCB is not far away from me and I know some people who have worked there, so I might ask advice of them.  I would certainly go for full functionality, as any flagship should.
With the debacle over some poor sales among the full-RC sets, and some technical issues, we need to show TLG what we really want; this is an ideal model for the same price point as a supercar or full-RC set (£300-400 RRP).

The way I envisaged pneumatic functions it might be 6 for the backhoe, 1 (twin) for the rear stabilisers, 3 for the loader, 1 auxiliary for tools, plus 1-2 for proportional pneumatic servo steering and a bidirectional hydrostatic drive option (are you drooling yet :laugh:)
It would need a lot of compression - one motor would not be enough.  I'm thinking at least 2x 4-cylinder compressors.  Then there is the switching between functions to consider, looking at how a real backhoe does it and then translating from hydraulics to pneumatics, each with their limitations.

Other functions would be 3 differentials, fake engine, pendular front axle, rotating seat (like 42054's cab), door and bonnet opening, so the total would be at least 20 functions (plus gear selectors, compressors and logic); would that be enough for a £400 set, given the inclusion of £200 of pneumatic pieces?
I think 3000 pieces is a ball-park, given that so many would be expensive pneumatic parts.  That does actually make it easier than full-RC to fit all the gear inside, even in a reasonable shape compared to a real backhoe; it has to look the part and preferably be a scale model.
I dare say LEGO "axles" would be a lot larger than the proportional size of the real ones, given the strength comparison of the materials, the required functionality and the way LEGO has to be built-strong.
One criterion for a prospective set would be whether TLG would release any more sets with 2/6 cylinders, given that 2/11 and 1/11 are in 42128 and 1/5 was in 42080, with 8110 Unimog being the last 2/6 set.  2/6 are most useful, complemented by 2/11 and 1/11 for arm functions, with 1/5 for hands and small-spaces.
A real backhoe has some wide, shorter cylinders too, and hydraulic motors.

You might be watching this space to the point of hibernation as I'm not quick to build MOCs.  Nemo took me 250 hours so I should have something nearly there by then, provided I don't hit any showstoppers.  Maybe mid-year if it goes well?
So many sets would be involved; 8868 and 8455 for legacy to build upon (it has to be worthy); 42114 for wheels and diffs; 42099 for wheel hubs and tyres; 8110, 42043, 42053, 42080 and 42128 for pneumatics; 42100 for hose holders and twin-turntable techniques; 42097 for yellow parts.
I do have a few tricks up my sleeve (see my Brickshelf) and it's time to see if they will deploy into a full MOC with set potential.

Glad you would consider buying 4; that really does encourage me to try for the best standard.  It is a model I would buy in multiple too so, forgetting any idea of wide popularity, I should build what I really want for a change!
If I do this and reach a point worthy of the prototype then that is a rose-tinted vision!

Mark

Edited by Brickthus

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On 1/5/2022 at 12:56 PM, Ngoc Nguyen said:

The updated list of possible models for flagship sets:

- Bucket trench excavator
- Simple hydraulic boom excavator
- Dragline excavator
- 6x6 mobile crane
- Tracked lattice boom crane (this one can uses the CAT track pieces)
- Tower crane
- Backhoe 
- Mining dump truck
- Combine harvester
- Biggest reach stacker
- Biggest forklift
- Biggest telehandler

I think I'll visit this list every year to cross out any idea that becomes an actual set. I wanna see how long TLG can maintain the Technic flagships without repeating themselves.

Updated list:

The updated list of possible models for flagship sets:

- Bucket trench excavator
- Simple hydraulic boom excavator
- Dragline excavator
- 6x6 mobile crane
- Tower crane
- Backhoe 
- Mining dump truck
- Combine harvester
- Biggest reach stacker
- Biggest forklift
- Biggest telehandler

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On 1/11/2022 at 9:56 AM, Jundis said:

Maybe some completely bizarre ones like a slag transport :D

METEC-2019-Kamag-Transporttechnik-GmbH-C

This particular Kamag 2800 Slag Pot Transporter would be a perfect set!

It has an interesting shape with a pivot axle under its cabin and what I think is a two position seat. There is also the pot part and it's lifting and tilting mechanism that would be very interesting to implement. Not much of a gearbox or suspension but still enough possible functions.

But my wishlist (besides a full RC all motorized functions, gearbox including JCB 3CX) item has to be Meclift ML1812R Variable Reach Truck (basically a telehandler). 

ml1812r_inside_container_2-scaled.jpg

This machine is a perfect and unique lego set!! It's so good I'm surprised they didn't feature it already, especially since it's European made. 

First of all it's shape is really unique and folds onto itself giving it really compact dimensions and the ability to drive inside a standard shipping container!!

It can adjust it's cabin height, lift up to 6m, has an adjustable width fork, insane turning radius in it's back wheels and double wheels on the front (I'm a sucker for those). 

I see so many possible functions here: 2 modes for the fork (parallel to the ground or fully adjustable), adjustable fork width, tele and lift, cabin height and high steering angle. 

Imagine a set made to scale that would include both this telehandler and a shipping container that it could drive into (without it's fork, possibly all the way).

Plus it just looks so good and this color scheme is really nice. Seems like something that could almost be MOCed from 42128.

Edited by thurd

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14 hours ago, thurd said:

This particular Kamag 2800 Slag Pot Transporter would be a perfect set!

It has an interesting shape with a pivot axle under its cabin and what I think is a two position seat. There is also the pot part and it's lifting and tilting mechanism that would be very interesting to implement. Not much of a gearbox or suspension but still enough possible functions.

But my wishlist (besides a full RC all motorized functions, gearbox including JCB 3CX) item has to be Meclift ML1812R Variable Reach Truck (basically a telehandler). 

 

This machine is a perfect and unique lego set!! It's so good I'm surprised they didn't feature it already, especially since it's European made. 

First of all it's shape is really unique and folds onto itself giving it really compact dimensions and the ability to drive inside a standard shipping container!!

It can adjust it's cabin height, lift up to 6m, has an adjustable width fork, insane turning radius in it's back wheels and double wheels on the front (I'm a sucker for those). 

I see so many possible functions here: 2 modes for the fork (parallel to the ground or fully adjustable), adjustable fork width, tele and lift, cabin height and high steering angle. 

Imagine a set made to scale that would include both this telehandler and a shipping container that it could drive into (without it's fork, possibly all the way).

Plus it just looks so good and this color scheme is really nice. Seems like something that could almost be MOCed from 42128.

Such unique and strange machinery might make for a functionally great sets, but a Technic set has to be recognizable enough for enough people to be considered for release. The things you describe would probably fail at this, even though there has been a few oddities over the years, such as the BWE, which most people probably haven't been familiar with before. In that case the name of the machine along with the looks made it obvious what it was supposed to represent, so it'll get a pass even if such machines aren't commonly seen. 

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