We need SHAKO's

[tedbeard]

he could be citing high to keep others out of the business...

Having spoken with him I don't get the impression he is trying to scare away competition and Napoleonic-era accessories are not part of his product line so there is no real competition to his products.

...it only takes one good sculptor to make the proper specs for a mold. its going to be the same diameter every time once you know that diameter then you shouldn't be able to screw it up...

Wow, I wish you could have been at the talks he gave as well as the talk by Bjarke (sp?) the Quality control guy from LEGO. There is soooo much more to the design of an element than the shape and size. There is materials flow, sprue placement, pin placement, materials shrinkage and a half dozen more things I'm sure he could tell you about.

It can be done. I would just suggest we come up with 6-7 elements we would like to see produced and then someone can make a business plan for production based on being able to sell a wider range of product. Maybe then someone can pick up the ball and make the investment or lead a consortium of investors to create the Brick Arsenal LLC or whatever.

Possible Items:

- french style shakos (wider at top than bottom)

- muskets w/attached bayonets

- wedgie caps (I don't know what the real name is for what I think of as "air force" caps)

- cavalry/highlander sword (partial basket hilt?)

- saber/scimitar (slightly curved blade)

- grenadier helmets

Items that sound appealing but I don't think would sell enough to be useful:

- Imperial Eagles

- alternate epauletes

- alternate backpacks

- busby helmets

[woody64]

Possible Items:

- french style shakos (wider at top than bottom)

- muskets w/attached bayonets

- wedgie caps (I don't know what the real name is for what I think of as "air force" caps)

- cavalry/highlander sword (partial basket hilt?)

- saber/scimitar (slightly curved blade)

- grenadier helmets

Items that sound appealing but I don't think would sell enough to be useful:

- Imperial Eagles

- alternate epauletes

- alternate backpacks

- busby helmets

Yeah, these items would give us a lot of possibilities to build all different forces ...

Maybe I have to add:

- husar shakoos (but that's maybe ment with busby helmet)

- polish lancer shakoos

- and cavalry helmets with a rope wearn by dragoons of different countries ...

[Scouty]

Are you proposing to do plastic injection molds? Are another tactic?

[tedbeard]

Yeah, these items would give us a lot of possibilities to build all different forces ...

Maybe I have to add:

- husar shakoos (but that's maybe ment with busby helmet)

- polish lancer shakoos

- and cavalry helmets with a rope wearn by dragoons of different countries ...

Busby:

If by "polish lancer shakoos" you mean:

I would have to disagree. It would be cool but could we sell enough to warrant production? The French style shako could substitute for this style thus increasing the market for that item.

I don't know what you mean by "cavalry helmets with a rope wearn by dragoons". I usually see them wearing Busby's.

It would be nice to make every style of helmet/hat but the question has to be: can we sell 5,000 of them as that is the number of sales we would have to make from each "slot" in the mold. I know some guys have a large army and we could charge more for individual items but that is still a lot of items to sell just to break even.

[Mosana]

To clarify, hussars generally wear colpacks or busbies:

Lancers and Polish troops wear czapkas:

Dragoons wear shakos (usually the bell-topped french style), tarleton helmets (for britain) or the Roman-style helmet with comb:

Tarleton:

Comb helmet:

Hope this helps.

Edited June 5, 2007 by Mosana

[woody64]

You often find cavalry helmets for garde du corps, cuirassiers and others like shown in this picture

I would have to disagree. It would be cool but could we sell enough to warrant production? The French style shako could substitute for this style thus increasing the market for that item.

Yes, from the business case point of view your are completly correct. It would be a success to have a small number of different types and to sell them ...

But to be honest I don't think that there are enough people interested in these helmets.

So therefore a mold for resin pieces having some hundred pieces in mind will do the job ...

Andreas

Edited June 5, 2007 by woody64

[Fordo]

If there were to be an injection mold I would say add these:

-Regular Generic Shako

-Musket

-Musket w/Bayonet

-Epaulette's (Green, blue, red, yellow, white, brown, etc)

-Backpacks (Brown, white, gray, etc.)

-bubsy

-Rifle

Otherwise for a resign mold shako's are what we need the most.

[woody64]

I would propose to have a sumary of the results achieved so far:

Maybe the other contributors can edit this message to get an snapshot of the actual knowledge:

That's only a proposal, so please change it if there's something wrong or incorrect.

resin

costs for creating the mold: <100$

time needed for the creation of the mold: 1 day (?)

number of pieces per mold: 4-8

different pieces possible: yes

mold usable for (#pieces): 300

experiences: ImperialScout

willingness to do it: ImperialScout

problems to solve: (?)

plastic injection molds

costs for creating the mold: >>1000$

time needed for the creation of the mold: > weeks (?)

number of pieces per mold: 10-20 (?)

different pieces possible: yes

mold usable for (#pieces): >>10000

experiences:

willingness to do it:

problems to solve:

- business case

- producer

- investor

- number of buyers

- copy of lego pieces possible (due to lego copyrights?)

pieces under discussion

a copy of lego shakoo

b french style shakoos (wider at top than bottom)

c muskets w/attached bayonets

d wedgie caps (I don't know what the real name is for what I think of as "air force" caps)

e cavalry/highlander sword (partial basket hilt?)

f saber/scimitar (slightly curved blade)

g grenadier helmets

h colpacks

woody64: a,b,c,e?,g,h (10 per type)

[woody64]

injection mold

Article describing injection molding:

http://media.peeron.com/brickjournal/brickjournal3.pdf

and link to the store

http://www.bigbenbricks.com/index.html

[Fordo]

This is also a tutorial on Resign molds. http://www.minifigcustomizationnetwork.com/forum/3587

[tedbeard]

pieces under discussion

a copy of lego shakoo

Sorry to bring this one up again but I don't think we need or want to replicate the LEGO shako for two reasons. First, as fans of LEGO the idea of ripping off LEGO designs should be repugnant not to mention possibly actionable in court. Second, we won't need them if we make the French version because those who are really into French armies will switch and thus make available more of the "English" LEGO official version shakos.

That said, I could see doing a second version of the shako perhaps in the shorter style so that there would be three versions: English (official LEGO), French and Austrian/other.

[Admiral_Jackson]

Im a newbie here, but I'd like to put my input.

First off I see no evil in copying the lego Shako design. It is literally impossible to get this piece from ANY official lego group source. If it is not available, I cannot see very much legal action involved in any of this process. Then again, I am not an Attorney at law, so I cannot guarentee this.

Two, your statement is an opinion. Just because you like the French shako better does not mean everyone else does. Personally, I detest the french design and have come very fond to Lego's rendition. Also, there is an unofficial British genre of Imperial minifigures (IE Imperial Guards), and in my opinion, French shakos would not work well with them. I believe that if the demand is high, French shakos should be made by all means, but that does not mean the original design should be scrapped.

[tedbeard]

First off I see no evil in copying the lego Shako design.

What happens when someone tries to pass off a replica as genuine LEGO? Are you OK with anyone simply copying LEGO pieces and selling them? Do you really think TLG is likely to ever consider a new Pirate line if we are ripping off their designs and thus competing with them?

I'm not a lawyer either but they did spend a lot of time in court fighting Mega Bloks et al. Since we could never afford the legal defence for this project the right or fairnes never enters into it. If they decided the project was a problem they would shut it down and we would be out any money invested.

Two, your statement is an opinion. Just because you like the French shako better does not mean everyone else does.

Actually I don't do French at all and will not be doing lancers which could also use that style. I was simply suggesting that for those who want to create large armies of French Infantry or any type of lancers they might find the more accurate to historical hats appealing. They might then be willing to trade "British" for the new "French.

[scippio]

What happens when someone tries to pass off a replica as genuine LEGO? Are you OK with anyone simply copying LEGO pieces and selling them? Do you really think TLG is likely to ever consider a new Pirate line if we are ripping off their designs and thus competing with them?

I'm not a lawyer either but they did spend a lot of time in court fighting Mega Bloks et al. Since we could never afford the legal defence for this project the right or fairnes never enters into it. If they decided the project was a problem they would shut it down and we would be out any money invested.

Just briefly, if lego has trademarked/copywrited/patented/any other means of lego protection on their individual pieces then simply creating one similar enough to theres is grounds for a suit. However, if lego does not have this in place which could be the case as some protections are time limited or prohibitivly costly to impliment in the first place and protect effectivly then you only run into a legal issue when you attempt to pass off the piece as original lego.

I would check into any kinds of legal protection lego has on their pieces first, or any other possible pieces and then go on from there. It is quite easy to alter a piece just enough to make it legally dissimilar and not cause any kind of property right violatons.

If I had to make a guess though, lego has not protected each individual piece but rather protects the right to sell these peices with the lego branding on them.... which would explain why every single piece of lego has lego on it. This is similar to cloathing lines or other easily reproduced items where the entire value is held in the branding trademark rather than the item itself.

In a situation where lego does for some reason take legal action against anyone producing such items then its simple to settle the suit without going to court.... most times a company would demand immediate discontinuation of production and seek damages of some specified amount that would later be revised.

[woody64]

Some comments ...

The french style would be apropriate for most of the other armies: Russian, German, Austrian, ....

The original is still true for the english shakoos, which were all smaller on the top.

Concerning legal issues we should have in mind:

- there are already sellers of custom parts

http://brickforge.com/

http://www.thelittlearmsshop.com/

- for the original it depends on lego

-- maybe it has to be differed in a way so that it cannot be mixed

I think the discussion will only be necessary for the injection molding topic since in the other case the number is much to small to be interesting ...

Andreas

[Mister Phes]

What happens when someone tries to pass off a replica as genuine LEGO? Are you OK with anyone simply copying LEGO pieces and selling them? Do you really think TLG is likely to ever consider a new Pirate line if we are ripping off their designs and thus competing with them?

There are plenty of knock-off brands already doing that. Do you think that might be what's preventing a new Pirate line?

[scippio]

There are plenty of knock-off brands already doing that. Do you think that might be what's preventing a new Pirate line?

I doubt thats the reason why as lego has a large market share and termendious brand power. I suspect they are either done with it for good or are holding off on creating more in order to build anticipation..... but I have a feeling that they are just done with it for good.

[Fordo]

Do you really think TLG is likely to ever consider a new Pirate line if we are ripping off their designs and thus competing with them?

Well, one retired piece isn't going to compete with Lego. Ripping off one design isn't all to bad considering the mold for it has been destroyed. Also we wouldn't come to this situation if TLC has just provided us with a well selling Pirate Line.

There are plenty of knock-off brands already doing that. Do you think that might be what's preventing a new Pirate line?

I doubt it, TLC really could careless about this minor knockoff brand's because if they wanted to just create a new pirate line I'd wipe the floor with those Knockoff's in design, quality, and sales.

Edited June 6, 2007 by Fordo

[Starwars4J]

Eek! I just read through the thread, and have noticed a bunch of misconceptions!

First, Little Armory doesn't sell from their site anymore, just from Sith35's Bricklink Store. Also, I really doubt that any of the other, large customizers (Redbean/Brickforge, Unknown Artist, Brickarms, etc.) would be willing to spend all those thousands on an injection mold. You don't want to go cheap with this, they use the best equipment, and therefore have great products that are indistinguishable from Lego! However you spend a little less...and suddenly the shako doesn't fit when you get it! And then you're out several tens of thousands of dollars.

As far as recluse, she's a viable option only to a certain extent. She charges about $10US per cast, and it's very slow. So...yeah. As for making your own? Go for it! That's what it's all about, however even silicon molding will take a lot of tries. Getting all the air bubbles out, making sure everything lines up, etc. That isn't easy, and even Recluse, one of the best silicon Lego molders out there has had difficulty. Do you want them to look like the actual Lego piece, or just lumpy and sort of similar?

Third...it probably isn't a good idea to go to the big customizers and beg for them to make the molds you want. You can check their forums...that isn't looked upon very nicely, the most common response you'll get is something along the lines of "do it yourself". That is the best option, in my opinion. Doing a professional injection molding part would not be feasible, you'd need to guarantee thousands of parts sold before you even break even! Silicon is likely the best way to go, but that is labor-intensive and very...very slow. Your best bet would be to check in the community forum and see if there are any customizers who have done anything similar and to ask if they could do it. IS can always try his hand at getting better with the whole system (since everyone has to start at the beginning), however keep in mind it could get expensive fast, and there will be a lot of trial and error. You don't want to use the cheap, quick-curing silicon either.

Edit: Also, there's nothing to worry about, as far as legal ramification goes. Plenty of customizers do this (just look at Recluse), and they don't get bothered. As far as deterring TLG from coming out with another pirate line, I think it would go the other way! Little Armor was making SW blasters for a long time, and then all of a sudden Lego decided to switch to guns and make them, themselves! This actually really upset him, as he claimed they more or less copied his design, but that isn't something to go into right now.

What I'm basically saying is, it might inspire them (if anything) to make another line.

Edited June 6, 2007 by Starwars4J

[Mosana]

I'm not liking the "French" idea at all for shakos, simply because they're too limited. They can only be used for French and British light dragoons. Every other country used variations of the stovepipe or Belgic designs, except for Russia, which used the strange "kiver" type shako.

[Scouty]

I was first afraid of breaking any laws of copying Lego. First and most of all, I would certainly say that this is a custom made part and not an official Lego part.

I am trying to go with this project I just need to get a good time to go to the store with the supplies (and that's if they still have it). But, I will try (even with trial and error) to replicate this part. The most concerning part of making this mold is the hat-to-minifig connection. I've had some trouble getting the resin to get fully into the little slit, but it doesn't seem to get through. I'll just have to try :-) .

[Starwars4J]

I was first afraid of breaking any laws of copying Lego. First and most of all, I would certainly say that this is a custom made part and not an official Lego part.

I am trying to go with this project I just need to get a good time to go to the store with the supplies (and that's if they still have it). But, I will try (even with trial and error) to replicate this part. The most concerning part of making this mold is the hat-to-minifig connection. I've had some trouble getting the resin to get fully into the little slit, but it doesn't seem to get through. I'll just have to try :-) .

I believe Recluse's silicon molding tutorial was posted a few pages back, it says that problem can be fixed by making more holes for air bubbles to escape.

[Scouty]

Yes, I've actually talked to her before more than one account. Helped me out. One thing I failed to do when making the molds, was create air holes. So, this time I'll get an exacto and use it to make the air holes as well as a place to pour the silicon into.

[scippio]

instead of getting a professional to design the mould you could go down to a local university and persude an engineering student to take it on as one of their semester projects and then work out some kind of deal.

everyone i know is off for the summer, but perhaps some of you guys down in australia could find someone.

[Scouty]

Good news! I found one of my previous designs while hunting for any stray pirate lego in my attic.

It's a hard copy and not complete (reference to the blob at the bottom of the helmet), but it shows the detail, and, it may not show, but it is smooth. Even shows the little line where the original molds met. And the camera may be unfocusing it a bit.