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I for one am looking forward to the imminent collapse in the price of used Metroliners once Serious Lego Collectors realise that the nose parts are Not Real Lego.

:laugh: at least the metroliner was looking good. I do not have a big problem with a special part for train front, but I find the new one rather ugly :sceptic:

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I don't have a problem either with the new nose piece, the rest of the train is all brick built......the designers were aiming for a realistic looking train. It's meant to look streamlined, unlike the cargo train......that one is purely to pull rolling stock and not to look pretty. :wink:

Now trees which can be considered a little off-topic when we talking about trains....well, the original Lego trees in town plan days of the 1960's were one piece molds....yeah, they were HO scale though. :blush: Then again classic town has the molded trees.....they weren't brick built in the late 1970's/early 1980's. :wink:

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To build a brick built version of this new train replica would mean a rise in piece count. Also, it would be aesthetically impossible to achieve the sleekness, aerodynamic and flowing lines that are represented in the design of this new nose piece. For the size and space that the piece is working with, I think it does it perfectly. It looks beautiful on the track and it really does stand out as the most modern looking train as a result. To me, I've never considered LEGO as having to be purely ''bricks'', because I wasn't born in the 80's. I was born in 1994. I feel as though there is a clash between the adults here, who have grown up with purely brick built and the new age of LEGO today.

Because these large pieces are still a piece, you still have to place it on just like any LEGO brick and you're still creating the model. You're just not constructing that shape. LEGO presumably had to face the challenge of achieving modern design into their bricks, without driving the piece count up, without making it too hard for the core demographic and looking aesthetically stable and correct. I think that LEGO did the right choice with these new trains. There is a HUGE contrast between the two trains. Streamlined high-speed passenger train and industrial diesel. To a child, that contrast would be great for their CITY.

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It's not just rectangular bricks.. the "creator" sets show how well you can build trains without looking too blocky, but still looking excellent.

LEGO, the fundamental idea, is that you can build other things, even if they give you the bricks to build a particular set.

Right now it seems like only the creator sets still follow the philosophy.

The Creator sets were introduced because enough folks were complaining about the fact that lego sets had become too much of a "model" and not enough of a "construction" set. There is still a large contingent of customers who emphasize the construction aspect. So we have the creator line.

As an ambassador I suggested that they toss in a plain minifig with some of the house creator sets, to give the kids a focal point. They did that once and it took off. Now they are starting to put in more and more specalized figs and some of the creator sets are starting to look more like city sets (I am still not pleased with the distinction of "creator expert" on the former DTC sets, since the basic creator sets have three different models while the DTC sets have a single model).

That is very true. I think it speaks volumes about the direction that this company has taken when, due to the expectations of different audiences, they need a separate theme solely for products that focus on the construction of a model. Creator is surely the most important product line they offer, and the pricing model brings to light just how much profit just be made from other lines.

Lego does very extensive market research, they have a good idea of what will sell and how much they can sell it for. If it doesn't make money, they won't do it. Although creator is probably my favorite over all theme (particularly if someone asks me gift advice), Creator probably is far from the most important product line in lego's book. I suspect the various licensed themes are top of that list.

To build a brick built version of this new train replica would mean a rise in piece count. Also, it would be aesthetically impossible to achieve the sleekness, aerodynamic and flowing lines that are represented in the design of this new nose piece. For the size and space that the piece is working with, I think it does it perfectly. It looks beautiful on the track and it really does stand out as the most modern looking train as a result. To me, I've never considered LEGO as having to be purely ''bricks'', because I wasn't born in the 80's. I was born in 1994. I feel as though there is a clash between the adults here, who have grown up with purely brick built and the new age of LEGO today.

Because these large pieces are still a piece, you still have to place it on just like any LEGO brick and you're still creating the model. You're just not constructing that shape. LEGO presumably had to face the challenge of achieving modern design into their bricks, without driving the piece count up, without making it too hard for the core demographic and looking aesthetically stable and correct. I think that LEGO did the right choice with these new trains. There is a HUGE contrast between the two trains. Streamlined high-speed passenger train and industrial diesel. To a child, that contrast would be great for their CITY.

Oh, I am not arguing any right or wrong about what lego is doing. I'm just saying that the contemporary sets are much more "build only one thing". I don't think that is lego's choice, they are following the market demands.

While the sets are geared towards children, they are doing a good job exploiting the resale market to still make the parts available to AFOLs. Various train specific parts come out in all sorts of strange sets (e.g., the black cow catcher piece first came out in a ninjago set)

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Didn't it first come in the SP3 base? There's train windows in a new weird set, that really serves no function (it could have been panels), that is nice of TLG

Edit :

It's this one. Can you spot the SIX 4035 1 x 2 x3 black windows (without cheating)?

79122-1.jpg?1

I'm also convinced that the green doors and frame in the container from 9486 are put in just for us trainfans :

9486-1.jpg?1

But they are of course doing no good at just putting the black RIGHT train door in the Town Square and not a left one also

I'd _really_ like some 4181/82s in new colours as the mold obviously isn't buried under the parking lot next to the monorail .. or maybe the LEFT one is? :grin:

Edited by 1974

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That's fine zephyr1934, I do understand about certain pieces not being used for anything else, however I think LEGO has moved into more allowing people to buy specific sets for a specific purpose. So if you only intended to build or you wanted a train, then 60051 would be specifically for your train layout, though I do understand what you mean. Though there is enough sets now to allow you to choose what you would like and which bricks you need for your builds c:

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Didn't it first come in the SP3 base? There's train windows in a new weird set, that really serves no function (it could have been panels), that is nice of TLG

Edit :

It's this one. Can you spot the SIX 4035 1 x 2 x3 black windows (without cheating)?

79122-1.jpg?1

I can't see them. It could be a case of a designer pleasing fans, that's known to happen. However a more likely explanation is that the 1x2x3 panel in black was last used in 2009 so it may not be a 'current' element while the 1x2x3 black train window was produced for Horizon Express last year so it was available.

I fully understand why Lego would have gone for the single big nose piece. Expensive as it may be to produce it's probably cheaper than x other parts to make up a nose so it would either keep the price down or allow for more elements elsewhere (such as including straight track sections).

At the same time I hope they're not going too far down the Megabloks road where regular bricks are just used to keep big pieces together like here:

porsche-911-gt3-rs-95722-1023.jpg

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Yeah, forgot about HE, doh! Maybe that's an indicator that it's not selling as expected? There's really no need to use 6 of those windows in that turtle set (they're flanking the center stair, six on each side, they could have used anything here, even a stack of 3004s as they're almost impossbiel to see. Also quite sure they're not in the TV series/cartoon/movie)

Oh, but they are making cars almost like that :

8200-1.jpg?1

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^ But they practically had to make those Disney CAR sets look like that, because they're working with such small spaces and specifications, that's why they use a mould. If they're trying to make something detailed, realistic and right, then they may consider a mould c:

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Sounds like you're talking about that train nose again :wink:

I just think it's real sad that to get bricks you must buy an 'expert' set. And it's the same with the Duplofication of City/airplanes

Anyway, I'm also tired of those type of passengercars, slapping a big roof piece over some trans panels. They've done that too often now

Lego does very extensive market research, they have a good idea of what will sell and how much they can sell it for. If it doesn't make money, they won't do it.

They have almost bankrupted themselves. Twice. (Actually, one time they did go bust)

They've launched very dubious themes and lost boatloads of money on activities indirectly related to brick manufacturing

They have exchanged many keyfigures in their leadership

There's loads of Lone Ranger/Chima sets just collecting dust at 50% discount worldwide

There's no Technics in the US

So no, they _quite_ often don't know what they're doing :wink:

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Lego does very extensive market research, they have a good idea of what will sell and how much they can sell it for. If it doesn't make money, they won't do it. Although creator is probably my favorite over all theme (particularly if someone asks me gift advice), Creator probably is far from the most important product line in lego's book. I suspect the various licensed themes are top of that list.

I would respectfully disagree with your final comment if sales data was taken into account. I work in brand retail and Creator is regularly in the top three selling themes throughout the fiscal year; customers love the value of these products. Not only this, but a good majority of the customers are parents who are buying on behalf of their children, because they approve of "the simpler" LEGO that, in their mindset, is more a catalyst for the builder's imagination, and also reminds them of their own youth. The products are also the go-to area of the store for those either new to the LEGO system, looking for a gift or just in need of pure construction! It's quite a therapeutic range :laugh:

Above all Creator is a vital brand asset, because there are no stringent rules with regards to line compatibility, which I believe is very important to appeal of these products.

With regards to market research, this obviously applies to every product line. But the comments I made were purely subjective - I just believe that a lot of the licensed products today are absolute tat that is packaged with very deceiving artwork. Having to remain neutral is the most difficult aspect my job, as children have a quite different impression to how large or epic a model is going to be in comparison to the box artwork. And for as long as families allow their children to buy into this deception, and the need to pay more money for components/minifigures that the company apply brand tax to, the "demand" will always exist, and I find that very upsetting.

Anyway, best keeping the discussion to trains...

Edited by nesquik

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1974 ahaha! No, I swear I'm not talking about the train nose ahahehe! :blush: I'm merely saying that in terms of those Disney CAR sets, the cars are really small. So to make them look realistic they practically had to use a custom mould, however that can also be applied to the nose piece, they wanted to make that realistic too :wub:

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I think it is possible to find uses for those one piece noses from the CITY sets.

11126984233_694ba94e4d_c.jpg

Propeller Rail Car par dr_spock_888, sur Flickr

It'll be interesting to see what kind of MODs or MOCs can come from the high speed passenger train set.

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I did not mean to stir up trouble. I see lego doing a good job following the market over the past decade since they moved management out of the family. I personally do not like all of the directions that the market is pushing them, but the idea of staying afloat much less turning a great profit in toys in this age is amazing in itself. And indeed, I might be wrong about creator. It does not seem to get much publicity, but it might just be one of the core themes. Thinking about the isles at the toy stores it does have about as much shelf space as the other large themes. Creator is certainly my favorite of the current lines.

I think the train theme has always been targeted towards kids more than adults, with occasional tangents meant to pull the parent in (e.g., 12v introducing the screw down holes to the ties, with all of the remote controls, etc.), or occasional gross simplification (e.g., everyone's favorite, 7897). The Super Chief was a return to some of the crossover ideas from 12v and those continue with EN/M/HE (with a brief stumble with the hobby train- a great idea with lots of great AFOL input, but hobbled from being all it could be by lego corporate... they are slowly learning to understand AFOLs).

In that vein, if trends mean anything, I would bet the next AFOL train will be steam freight (steam->diesel->electric->next; passenger->frieght->passenger->next). Probably nothing larger than a x-6-x (both because the mold is 4:2 flanged to blind and because larger than that is hard to make robust enough for the tight curves to include in a set)

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I have to say, before I started buying trains (and as a result, other City sets) I basically only bought the little and medium creator sets and Star Wars stuff, and I imagine that creator sets are the casual buying habit of many a none committed manchild in the mood to scratch a Lego itch. Not sure about the bigger building sets (not 3 in 1) sets, which can look a little childish and the modular sets which are too big and expensive for someone looking for a little Lego based fun.

Also, that prop train, not sure if that's blatant cheating or well played! lol

Edited by Redimus

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No offense, but I personally think that people who complain about the overhang of the new nose piece are being ridiculous. It's not even realistic to have things that close to the track anyway if the nose hits it. You either have far too little space or you can simply move the track a few millimetres .... literally away from the object. Otherwise LEGO would constantly have to make flat nose trains and there would be no variety or realism. Literally all you have to do is have a straight piece or move the object away, it's the simple, not a flaw at all :tongue:

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It is realistic to have things that close to the track, what isn't realistic are the default curves the Lego system uses. With most existing models, it has be easy enough to build a layout with details close enough to the track, but this train can't even clear it's own tiny station if put on the outside of the oval...

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Not in Australia it isn't. Besides, it's as simple as moving the station to the other side or placing a straight piece before the station.

Edited by Captain America

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Speaking of Australia and the 2014 trains, does anyone know the Australian release date?

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The official release date is June 1st, but many of the summer wave products have been released early. The next Creator train should have a Jan 1st full release.

Edited by nesquik

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It'll be interesting to see what kind of MODs or MOCs can come from the high speed passenger train set.

Maybe the nose piece can be used for an airplane?

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It is realistic to have things that close to the track, what isn't realistic are the default curves the Lego system uses. With most existing models, it has be easy enough to build a layout with details close enough to the track, but this train can't even clear it's own tiny station if put on the outside of the oval...

Unfortunately the tight curvature of the track has always been an issue resulting in the wide swing of the nose with most of the LEGO Train designs, especially the High Speed Trains the last two designs 4511 & 7897 swung out a similar distance to the new train. Also placing structures such as platforms close to the end of a curve or set of points has always been a big no no due to the issue with clearances. Many years ago when my friend Mr P and myself were working out the specifications for clearances and the loading gauge for a train club we had started, we found that you had to have a 5 stud clearance on the outer section of curved track.

With LEGO Trains sets you have to consider that they are quintessentially Toy Train sets and are designed more for being a toy than a model, even then you only have to look back at model railways and see that up until about 20 years ago the curvature of tracks was quite tight. Before then there was what is known as No 1 Radius and No 2 Radius Curves, these tracks were designed to be used on boards up to 120cm/4 feet in width, in the late 1970s we saw the introduction of flexi track that gave the ability to make larger radius curves and then in the 1990s manufactures started to bring out No 3 Radius and No 4 Radius curves. This was also brought about by the fact that a lot of the Ready To Run locomotives had become far more accurate in scale and detail compared to their predecessors, the wheelsets and drive gear such as pistons on the older trains were far more simplistic and had more slop compared to the tolerances required for the new finely detailed models. Another point of note is that up until the late 1970s most pieces of model railway equipment was designed to give the style and look of a particular prototype and were more a compromise of selective compression to capture the essence of a design rather than being a highly accurate representation of the real thing.

Edited by Steinkopf

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Speaking of Australia and the 2014 trains, does anyone know the Australian release date?

I believe the independent retailers are getting them in August.......pity no details on any mid-year toy sale action to say otherwise.

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Thank you Steinkopf for that nice history lesson :thumbup:

I just want to add that the reason that LEGO train tracks (and also other model trains) have such tight curvature is the very simply that most people don't have the room for something more realistic

TLG would sell just about zero trains if a circle of tracks would be 4m/12feet in diameter

Some people build the most stunning super large steamers but they do look completely bonkers going round in curves. Good thing new tracks are comming out

Maybe the nose piece can be used for an airplane?

:laugh:

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