LEGO Ambassador Project: Design a NEW Pirate Sub-Theme

[Cara]

Based on what evidence? The Pirate sets released 4-5 years ago sold very well apparently so is there any particular reason they would not do so currently?

When I said I didnt think children have much affinity for pirates currently and that these sets need to provide a connection between the kids and the theme, I mean that currently children in my location do not watch or play anything pirate related that they can associate that play and then reenact or create with lego.

I have two children that fall in the middle of the lego age range so my perspective comes from observing them, their classes and their extracurricular activity friends. Of course children from other countries may enjoy different aspects however from my observation I agree with Milo that children prefer to play with or create scenes from things they have experienced - movies, cartoons, and then expand from those.

As to your question about the sets from 4-5 years ago, without any data from that time I will go out on a limb and make a guess - and this is pure speculation. Forgive me if my dates are off. Pirates of the Carribean came out in 2003 with films two and three in 2006 and 2007. 2009 saw the lego line I think you are referring to yet lego did not make PotC sets until 2011 when the fourth movie was released. The lego pirates line filled a gap in the market at a time in which 1. Kids had that affinity with pirates through association of the films being big hits. 2. (In my case) had an affinity with adults that were kids at the time of imperial pirates and now 15ish years after have disposable income and kids of their own.

This is why I think lego cartoons do wonders for lines such as Chima and Ninjago. And why licensed themes are popular with both adult and children alike.

If my children have pocketmoney, they will spend it on the set that theyve watched cartoons of, before they will spend it on for example city/castle. So even though they might like the city or castle sets they rank lower in buying priority and with new sets coming out each season those city and castle sets never get to the top of the wishlist.

So if a new line is being proposed it either has to be able to compete with the big childrens lines currently, or find a niche in the adult d2c or modular type marketplace, otherwise they are second place shelf fillers.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Cara

[Mister Phes]

This is why I think lego cartoons do wonders for lines such as Chima and Ninjago. And why licensed themes are popular with both adult and children alike. So if a new line is being proposed it either has to be able to compete with the big childrens lines currently, or find a niche in the adult d2c or modular type marketplace, otherwise they are second place shelf fillers.

Basing themes on established brands is obviously advantageous given the LEGO Group has progressively increased the number of licenced themes over the past 15 years.

However, that's a formality we have to accept because we're not aiming to produce a sub-theme based on a licence, so we'll need to tap into why the Castle and City themes are successful enough to warrant annual set releases.

We're not aiming to produce the most successful theme, just one that's sustainable enough for production.

Pirates of the Carribean came out in 2003 with films two and three in 2006 and 2007. 2009 saw the lego line I think you are referring to yet lego did not make PotC sets until 2011 when the fourth movie was released.

Even if the LEGO Group decided to put our sub-theme into production, it wouldn't happen until after the fifth Pirates of the Caribbean movie was released in 2016. In which case they may continue producing sets under the their license for that franchise, but whether this will be the case remains unknown.

[madmordiggin]

Hello there me hearties!, i pretty much joined the forums for this topic ,

i love the goal of this topic! I'm not that great in the MOC department, but i have some story ideas/lore that i think will work well for the lego pirate setting if you would care to hear them.

personally, i'd love the idea of having many factions with there own lore and characters and rather then establishing who's the good guys and who's the bad guys and instead encouraging people to choose there favorite and just roll with them. ( i guess kinda like warhammer? but a heck of a lot simpler)

Edited March 8, 2014 by madmordiggin

[MiloNelsiano]

Cara and Mister Phes,

I think you're both 100% right. Cara touched on some stuff I previously mentioned, but as Mister Phes has stated, we cannot use any kind of license to create the kids' familiarity with the product. I also don't think it very practical or even possible to start with a cartoon show before the product would be released. This will have to come from other means, which could be Lego comics in the Lego magazine (you can't imagine how popular those have been at work, and there has been at least a page hinting at the release of (off the top of my head) Chima and the TMNT lines before their release) or any number of other creative ways to introduce a story or implication of how the sets are "supposed" to be played with. I feel like I need to clear this up quickly--not all kids need suggestions on how to play with their toys, but an increasing number of kids are becoming less imaginative and creative, probably (my suspicions) due to watching more TV and playing less than previous generations. This may be also be a little farther ahead than Mister Phes had intended for us to get in this discussion however.

[Louie le Brickvalier]

Realizing my initial post was rather unsure, I will confirm that I would be willing to help out in some set design.

[Mister Phes]

I am in Market Research so this is something I would like to get involved in.

Have you got any ideas how we may be able to acquire some feedback from the German market?

Matthias130182 has offered some suggestions but kindergarten is a little too young, the target demograph is German boys ages 7-12. Plus MiloNelsiano is right, interviewing children is a precarious venture without parental consent so we'd need a particular system for acquiring the information.

Realizing my initial post was rather unsure, I will confirm that I would be willing to help out in some set design.

That is excellent!

As the project progresses I'll create an official thread for registrations so don't worry too much if you haven't expressed absolutely certainty in contributing.

[Lyichir]

The way I see it (as a non-Pirates fan), there are two main directions you could go with a new Pirates theme.

The first way would be as a small-scale theme like the recent Castle theme or the 2009 Pirates theme. Essentially a one-year theme, perhaps with the sets remaining available for a year or so longer. You could make a theme that is plenty iconic that way but the scope would have to be limited. Such a theme wouldn't have a lot of room for more than two factions, let alone subthemes.

The second way (which I think would be preferred by Pirates builders who want an ongoing theme) is to model it a bit more on themes like Ninjago and Chima. This would allow for an expandable theme that could last a good three years or more if sales can support it. There are a couple aspects that I think would be necessary if you wanted a theme like this.

1. The theme would have to have a story. Not just the typical barebones plot of Castle or City, but a real developed story with discernable characters (who would make the sets more "collectible" and give kids characters to relate to) and overarching goals (simple treasure and plunder would not do for this; you would perhaps want a set of treasures that could somehow unlock or direct the pirates toward a greater bounty).
   
2. You want the factions to be distinct. One of the merits of past Pirate themes is that there was no clear "good guys" or "bad guys" and if that could be maintained it would be wonderful. But regardless of the morality of the factions, you need them to contrast with one another. If the Imperials are clean-cut then the Pirates have to be more raggedy. If the Imperials are presented as monolithic then the Pirates have to be more diverse. And if the Imperials are Bluecoats then the Pirates (or at least their captain) should wear red. Don't limit this to just the fig design—you should be able to tell just by looking at the ship set which faction it belongs to.
   
3. The theme would have to be expandable. In the original Pirates theme, the theme was expanded by introducing new factions. That could still work for this theme, but since sets are replaced more frequently these days you couldn't feature new factions at the expense of old ones. You'd want to feature the same Pirate crew from year-to-year, so the same characters kids grew to love could be maintained. And you'd want to make sure each year of sets stood out compared to the old ones. So, for instance, the crew would likely need a new ship the second year, and it would have to differ thematically—perhaps the treasure the pirates found the first year could be used to bling out their ship (and their attire) the second year, or perhaps the treasure they found was cursed and their ship becomes darker and spookier. The expandability of the theme would not be too much of a factor in the initial pitch, and in fact you'd want to make sure the first year is self-contained and iconic in case that's all the theme could support, but you also want to leave room for thematic escalation (new, more fearsome foes, a new look for the heroes, and so on).
   

These are the two most important aspects I've seen in successful ongoing themes like Ninjago or Chima or Exo-Force or even Bionicle. Zaniness can help when marketing to kids, but I think a dynamic story with compelling characters is far more important. And the ability for the story to keep going is essential if you want the theme to continue.

[Skalldyr]

I think this sounds like a great project! I would love to contribute but have not yet figured out how...

And I think what was written by Lyichir is very true. The very success of Nijago would be a good role model for nearly every theme.

[Duvors]

Hmmmm.... I'm interested by this idea and I think I'd like to help, I'd be best in writing but I'd love to do some set design if possible, now I'm going to bookmark this thread so I can read it over later, goodbye!

[Mister Phes]

The first way would be as a small-scale theme like the recent Castle theme or the 2009 Pirates theme. Essentially a one-year theme, perhaps with the sets remaining available for a year or so longer.

We'll have to aim for a one-year theme like the recent 2009 Pirate sets because ongoing releases aren't a foreseeable option.

At this stage convincing the LEGO Group to produce an ephemeral theme will be challenge enough, however we could sow the seeds for a much larger story to encourage future continuation.

You could make a theme that is plenty iconic that way but the scope would have to be limited. Such a theme wouldn't have a lot of room for more than two factions, let alone subthemes.

Maybe the term "sub-theme" has evolved since Pirates were first introduced because back then each "faction" was considered a "sub-theme".

Using the 2009 Pirate theme as an example, in the traditional sense it could be said that it contained two sub-themes, Pirates and Imperial Guards, but given the handful of sets perhaps "factions" would be a more appropriate term.

And I think what was written by Lyichir is very true. The very success of Nijago would be a good role model for nearly every theme.

It's important to consider Ninjago and Chima have television series to reinforce their brands which must vastly help establish familiarity amongst children.

A decade ago the LEGO Group attempted the storyline approach with the Knights Kingdom II theme and the sets were met with harsh criticism, so perhaps this approach is better suited to established brands.

The barebones story approach is certainly working for City, it's selling very well according to LEGO Group CEO Jørgen Vig Knudstorp who speaks favourably about it in his presentation for the 2013 LEGO Group Financial Report.

[2maxwell]

A decade ago the LEGO Group attempted this approach with the Knights Kingdom themes and the sets were met with harsh criticism, so perhaps this approach is better suited to established brands.

The barebones story approach is certainly working for City, it's selling very well according to LEGO Group CEO Jørgen Vig Knudstorp who speaks favourably about it in his presentation for the 2013 LEGO Group Financial Report.

This is important to remember. The ninjago and chima model does not always work, and it is definitely not necessary.

[The_Cook]

I'm very much interested in contributing, although I can see this degenerating into a mess if not properly managed.

It would be nice to know a couple of things:

• The stated aims of the project?
  
• A rough timeline of the overall project?
  
• Governance model: who's in charge, who gets to make the final decisions, and how?
  

At the moment it feels to me like a "lets design some sets" contest but it needs to attain a more professional aspect if you're actually trying to produce a viable theme that TLG would consider producing. I feel that Cara, MiloNelsanio and others are on the right track with their discussions about what are kids interested in these days. I just hope that the majority of posters are able to understand that building bricks is just a small part of a much, much larger product design process and that there are many less exciting steps to go through before and after the bricks are put together.

In response to some of the Knights Kingdom, Ninjago and Chima comments. Over the past decade and a half TLG have learnt that some degree of storyline is important in the play, primarily this came out of the BIonicle range. Knights Kingdom might not have got the storyline or presentation quite right but what TLG learnt from that and other ranges will have been incorporated into the current themes. Sometimes they'll get it exactly right and have a massive hit on their hands such as Ninjago, sometimes they won't.

A lot also depends upon how much marketing accompanies the release of the theme; getting a cartoon on TV is the pinnacle of marketing and will drive big sales although it won't come cheap. City on the other hand can always fall back on the premise that kids will act out what they see around them, they live in towns and cities, they see firemen and policemen and doctors and want to recreate those things. For castle and pirates it's harder, kids don't see Knights or Pirates around them, they have to be taught about them, hence the need for more of a storyline to give them ideas on what to do.

I recommend that anyone partaking in this project reads: Brick by Brick, How LEGO Rewrote the Rules of Innovation and Conquered the Global Toy Industry by David C. Robertson. It's not going to teach you a lot about building lego sets but it will teach you a lot about the design and decisions process that TLG goes through. If you want to make a theme that TLG will produce you have to start thinking like the managers and executive in TLG in terms of viability of theme and it's likelihood of success.

Edited March 11, 2014 by The_Cook

[Mister Phes]

I'm very much interested in contributing, although I can see this degenerating into a mess if not properly managed.

The project hasn't commenced and as stated various times throughout this thread, we're just acquiring expressions of interest to determine whether it's viable in the first place.

The stated aims of the project?

Was that not sufficiently stated in the first post of this thread?

• A rough timeline of the overall project?
  
• Governance model: who's in charge, who gets to make the final decisions, and how?
  

Since I'm the LEGO Ambassador I'm in charge and I'm currently in the process of drafting this information.

I had not done so previously because I required a sufficient level of interest to make it worth my time.

[The_Cook]

The stated aims of the project?

Was that not sufficiently stated in the first post of this thread?

Enough to garner interest, but not sufficiently well defined to run a design project as the discussions have shown. That's not necessarily a problem, the detail around the process and the aims will need to be elaborated early on in the project before people start to jump into the design phase.

Edited March 11, 2014 by The_Cook

[Mister Phes]

Garner interest was the sole purpose of this expressions of interest thread...

When the project commences there will be a series of highly specific threads each containing their own set of rules to dictate the flow of information.

I've been involved in a few projects of this nature and the final result has far exceeded the expectations of the LEGO Group.

[Mister Phes]

If you want to make a theme that TLG will produce you have to start thinking like the managers and executive in TLG in terms of viability of theme and it's likelihood of success.

This is a good point, however I should mention in the past, LEGO Ambassadors have successfully submitted ideas for themes (most recently the "Forest Fire" City sub-theme) without providing any market research or assessment of viability. So a good idea alone can suffice.

However, it would be desirable to take this approach and provide supporting research to increase the probability of the LEGO Group's acceptance. But in reality we may not be able to collate the necessary information so what shall we do? Not try at all, or submit something anyway and see what happens?

[Ridge Montante]

However, it would be desirable to provide supporting research to increase the probability of the LEGO Group's acceptance. But in reality we may not be able to collate the necessary information so what shall we do? Not try at all, or submit something anyway and see what happens?

I say we try it and see what happens. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[ManInATopHat]

This is a great idea!

I can help out with writing backstories/set descriptions, and I may be able to help with smaller set set design.

This has a good chance of succeeding, or at least swaying Lego to see that Pirates is awesome.

[Lego dad]

When I said I didnt think children have much affinity for pirates currently and that these sets need to provide a connection between the kids and the theme, I mean that currently children in my location do not watch or play anything pirate related that they can associate that play and then reenact or create with lego.

I have two children that fall in the middle of the lego age range so my perspective comes from observing them, their classes and their extracurricular activity friends. Of course children from other countries may enjoy different aspects however from my observation I agree with Milo that children prefer to play with or create scenes from things they have experienced - movies, cartoons, and then expand from those.

I would have to respectfully disagree. Pirates are popular with children. Though maybe it's with children who are younger than your own. I see pirate references all the time in cartoons. Not to mention sponge bob, one of my favorite cartoons is popular. My oldest daughter got interested in pirates from a pirate exhibit of the Whydah and has been a fan ever since.

Just because children are not currently playing pirates hardly means that they don't have any interest. Pirates in our popular culture represent much what it means to be a kid, fun, adventure, exploration and imaginative play.

[Sebeus I]

I would have to respectfully disagree. Pirates are popular with children. Though maybe it's with children who are younger than your own. I see pirate references all the time in cartoons. Not to mention sponge bob, one of my favorite cartoons is popular. My oldest daughter got interested in pirates from a pirate exhibit of the Whydah and has been a fan ever since.

Just because children are not currently playing pirates hardly means that they don't have any interest. Pirates in our popular culture represent much what it means to be a kid, fun, adventure, exploration and imaginative play.

Agreed,

I walked into a comic book store the other day and saw several pirate-related comic series (although most of them are really for adults), there is definitely an apparent interest in the genre.

Atleast that's what one can conclude from my perspective .

[Lego dad]

Agreed,

I walked into a comic book store the other day and saw several pirate-related comic series (although most of them are really for adults), there is definitely an apparent interest in the genre.

Atleast that's what one can conclude from my perspective .

Yes pirates are even more popular with adults. And children like to be apart of what interest their parents. At least until they are teenagers.

[David Thomsen]

When I think of market research and Lego, I think of the Friends theme and the ensuing controversy. We sell Lego where I work and I have some co-workers who still get very angry when they handle the 'sexist' Lego sets for girls. But it wasn't a case of TLC being intentionally sexist, they were just following their market research, and if anything were only guilty of following their research too closely. Well, that and the idea of having 'a Lego line for girls' to begin with. (I don't want to start this particular discussion here, and if anyone wants to agree or disagree with my words, please transfer them into the well-established Friends Controversy thread.)

That's a special case though, and 'market research for a Pirate theme' is already a much better position than 'market research for a Girls' theme'. But I think it demonstrates that while research is important (obviously TLC are a company who sell mostly to children, and few companies are going to survive by trying to sell to children what adults think they should buy), with a toy like Lego that is more educational and cognitive than most toys I think it's important to balance 'what children want' with 'what adults think children need'.

I personally think the Pirates theme needs more girls... on both faction. There's a token pirate woman in a couple of sets, and a couple of female 'civilians' on the other faction, but why can't there be a female soldier? Historically inaccurate, perhaps, but the City theme has a female criminal this year, something I never thought I'd see. What does it tell children that, on the Soldiers' faction, all the soldiers are male and all the civilians are female?

[2maxwell]

I personally think the Pirates theme needs more girls... on both faction. There's a token pirate woman in a couple of sets, and a couple of female 'civilians' on the other faction, but why can't there be a female soldier? Historically inaccurate, perhaps, but the City theme has a female criminal this year, something I never thought I'd see. What does it tell children that, on the Soldiers' faction, all the soldiers are male and all the civilians are female?

Just wanted to jump on this and say that would be historically accurate. Women served on board ships during the age of sail, often in combat positions. Not usually as marines, but they did serve on ships. There are also several reported cases of women of the period pretending to be men and fighting as enlisted soldiers.

Also wanted to mention that I have a ton of young cousins. I watch their shows with them, I go shopping with them, etc, and there is a lot of pirate stuff everywhere. Most kids shows have at least one pirate episode on them, there are tons of pirate toys, they dress up as pirates on halloween. Not to mention that the last PotC was only a few years ago and a new one is coming out soon. Pirates are enough a part of at least American culture that kids definitely understand pirates, and they like pirates.

Edited March 12, 2014 by 2maxwell

[Mister Phes]

I would have to respectfully disagree. Pirates are popular with children. Though maybe it's with children who are younger than your own.

Let's not forget the LEGO Group does currently have a small Duplo pirate theme in production. I.e Jake and the Neverland Pirates.

Also consider the children's market is not the sole determining factor of whether a theme goes into production.

The "Forest Fire" and "Farm" City sub-themes along with Castle's "7189 Mill Village Raid" were inspired by AFOL demand delivered via the LEGO Ambassador Program.

I walked into a comic book store the other day and saw several pirate-related comic series (although most of them are really for adults), there is definitely an apparent interest in the genre.

There are also video games... My 12 year old nephew was showing me "Assassin's Creed 4: Black Flag" a couple of months back...

I'm not overly familiar with the Assassin's Creed games but from what I understand they're a fairly significant video game franchise and for them to produce a sequel with a piratical theme must be an indication of something.

[Cara]

Realizing my initial post was rather unsure, I will confirm that I would be willing to help out in some set design.

Same here! I love pirates and I sincerely hope it succeeds.

I think Lyichir's post has good points about theme and story.