CuuSoo rule changes - Impacts?

[JGW3000]

I see that CuuSoo has updated its rules, etc... see http://blog.lego.cuusoo.com/ they are now weeding out the projects that don't fit.

While I don't think this will impact Sheepo's Land Rover Defender, it may impact other projects of interest to this forum, especially Micro Power functions http://lego.cuusoo.com/ideas/view/576, as these are new parts, no longer allowed.

Are there other worthy projects that might get axed? (But I am mildly amused that the Apple store project should get deep-sixed)

[Alasdair Ryan]

What about if you enter a set that is using a new part for example a forklift with one long pneumatic ram.

[JGW3000]

From the CuuSoo blog, "Please only create projects suggesting standard LEGO sets and not new parts, software, websites, apps, or non-LEGO brick based products (backpacks, mugs, etc)."

OK, so does this mean no projects consisting of new parts only, or does this mean that your project can use only existing parts?

Edited December 12, 2013 by JGW3000

[Alasdair Ryan]

I hope it means that you should include a new part in a model entered.

[Meatman]

They should have been doing this since it started.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Meatman

[Saberwing40k]

While the Cuusoo thing sounds good in theory, in practice megablocks rules like this make it suck. So, all we get out of it is megablocking Minecraft sets. I think that Cuusoo should be modified to be more like Kickstarter, so for like new parts or a run of sets, contributors could pledge money. I think that that would be a great thing, because it could allow Lego to do things it would never ordinarily do.

[Meatman]

Yeah, but they would have to raise 100K just for a new part.

[JGW3000]

I find it hard to believe that 100K is the cost of a new part, considering how many new parts are actually released each year (I think) Does anyone have a count of each year's new parts? (Consider all of the odd parts for the action-figure sets.) Based on some of my industrial exposure, I'd guess a new injection molding machine may be $100K, the molds themselves should be much less. I'd be more concerned with the limited ability to add new machines, and not molds, which then limits the number of new parts each year - they just don't have the manufacturing capacity to make more then X number of parts in Y different colors.

I'd go with a "Kickstarter" type of voting, I am guessing about 20,000-50,000 units are needed for a new set to break even.

(added - I am guessing the 100K is $100,000 US)

Edited December 12, 2013 by JGW3000

[Saberwing40k]

Yeah, but they would have to raise 100K just for a new part.

100k what? Dollars, Euros, Hedgehogs?

Anyway, if that's the case, on average, we'd only need $10 dollars from each contributor. And that's if Lego fronts none of the production cost. If they fronted 25% of the cost, on average each voter would only have to give $7.50. Plus, new molds, and r/d and that crap can't cost that much, especially in the cases of parts that already have CAD files.

[Meatman]

100k what? Dollars, Euros, Hedgehogs?

Anyway, if that's the case, on average, we'd only need $10 dollars from each contributor. And that's if Lego fronts none of the production cost. If they fronted 25% of the cost, on average each voter would only have to give $7.50. Plus, new molds, and r/d and that crap can't cost that much, especially in the cases of parts that already have CAD files.

100k whatever you want to call it because new molds range in price. 10,000 people pledging $10 would never happen. There are great Cuusoo projects that can't get 10,000 supports and that is free.

[Aanchir]

Mark Stafford (Nabii) explained the new mold issue in the comments here: "Cuusoo sets are produced in batches of 10/20,000 whereas retail LEGO sets are produced with a minimum of half a million sets each. Sales pay for the mold which is a very expensive item - until Cuusoo sets go on sale demand is considered hard to predict, so the rule of no new molds was introduced."

The idea that LEGO Cuusoo as a platform cannot support set projects that include new molds is not new. However, the rule against "new part projects" IS new, as originally the LEGO Cuusoo platform had some guidelines set up specifically to handle royalty payments for such projects. Presumably, the understanding was that f a new part project passed review it would be incorporated into new sets that are produced in quantities great enough to offset the cost of the mold. But evidently the LEGO Group took a good hard look at what the platform is capable of and determined that new part projects cannot in fact fit into that. In my opinion, it's good that they're getting that out of the way before a new part project actually reaches review to minimize disappointment.

The high cost of LEGO molds has to do with a lot of things: longevity, precision, the complexity of the molds, etc. The LEGO Group has not put out any specific figures but it's definitely really high. And certain pre-assembled components like motors require not only several new molds but entire production processes to handle them. Note also that it's not just the mold itself that is expensive — the space on the production floor is itself valuable and can't be wasted on parts being produced in extremely small quantities.

Parts in new colors or with new decorations ARE entirely possible through LEGO Cuusoo, as past projects have demonstrated. So it's not like there's NOTHING you can do to make your project offer something builders don't already have.

In any case, it is entirely possible to design a high-quality model that does not require any new parts, and in my opinion all of the LEGO Cuusoo projects to date have been high-quality projects in their own right. They might not be the kinds of sets that make every LEGO builder's dream come true, but they do open up new possibilities for what can and can't become a LEGO set. Before the Minecraft sets, there were NO sets based on video games (unless you count some expanded universe Star Wars sets), in part because the LEGO Group wasn't sure what games would have the right amount of powerful and lasting demand to offset any licensing costs. The LEGO Minecraft sets went on to sell like hotcakes, so evidently the demand was there.

And think of it this way: with these guidelines in place, projects that are completely infeasible can be nipped in the bud, meaning that projects that are well-designed with a sound understanding of what is or isn't possible will no longer have to compete for attention with projects that are attractive and polished beyond what is actually realistic for a LEGO Cuusoo set. Building within these guidelines is not difficult, but now supporters' standards won't be artificially elevated beyond what a project built within these guidelines can achieve.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Aanchir

[Meatman]

^I can only assume that the Back to the Future set was produced in a much higher quantity than 10 or 20 thousand right? Or is that just the initial batch?

Edited December 12, 2013 by Meatman

[JGW3000]

Aanchir - thanks for the information and the link - a good 'big picture' perspective

[TinkerBrick]

Thanks for the input, Aanchir.

i also think that the price for the molds (esp. complex, multiple surface Technic ones) can not be underestimated. These tools are so high precisioned to reach the quality standards we all love our bricks for. Few mostly unnoticeable birthmarks, clean but not sharp edges. Also the molds are made of multiple parts , not just two, as to make a bucket or so. Even if the final mold would just cost a couple thousand euros, i'm certain, that the development of the tools/production process counts up to these 100K in man-hours, materials for prototypes, lathe/CNC-time.

[DrJB]

I am not sure TLG's refusal of using NEW parts has anything to do with mold costs. From my time working in the tire industry, making a new tire mold costs about $30k. Based on the geometric complexity, I'd think tire molds are much much more expensive than Lego molds.

The reason might be elsewhere. All of their parts are protected by patents. If they make a part that was suggested by fan, who gets the patent? Would that contributor collect some royalties on each part molded? Again, cost of mold (imho) got nothing to do with it.

Edited December 12, 2013 by DrJB

[Meatman]

I am not sure TLG's refusal of using NEW parts has anything to do with mold costs. From my time working in the tire industry, making a new tire mold costs about $30k. Tire molds are much much more complex/expensive than Lego molds.

The reason might be elsewhere. All of their parts are protected by patents. If they make a part that was suggested by fan, who gets the patent? Would that contributor collect some royalties on each part molded? Again, cost of mold (imho) got nothing to do with it.

If you do a Google search you'll see that Lego molds vary in cost from five figure to six figures.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Meatman

[Blakbird]

I'm moving this thread to the "General Discussion" forum since it is not related to Technic.

[jonwil]

Reading the rules I think the new rule about logos/mascots is targeted at Purdue Pete and that Android thing and not so much at things like the Apple store or that Ice Pilots DC3 or the Apollo/NASA Lunar Module (where the logos are being used in the context of an actual LEGO model)

I like the way that have been more explicit about "new parts" and not showing your models with new element designs in them (e.g. the Zelda headpiece) or with 3rd party/clone brand parts. I do wonder what they would do if you showed a model featuring long-discontinued parts. I also wonder what the policy is regarding existing parts in new colors (we know they can green-light such things for Cuusoo sets, look at Doc's hair in the BTTF set)

I also like the rejection of things that contain mostly minifigs with no specific set idea attached or of "theme" ideas with no clearly defined set.

[jimmynick]

Well, now all the acceptable projects are now traditional "LEGO sets" like they've chosen to produce from the beginning of CUUSOO. Hopefully the new policies reduce the amount of clutter floating around.

[Faefrost]

From the CuuSoo blog, "Please only create projects suggesting standard LEGO sets and not new parts, software, websites, apps, or non-LEGO brick based products (backpacks, mugs, etc)."

OK, so does this mean no projects consisting of new parts only, or does this mean that your project can use only existing parts?

It means projects can only use existing parts. CuuSoo does not have the capabilities to make new parts or elements.

Reading the rules I think the new rule about logos/mascots is targeted at Purdue Pete and that Android thing and not so much at things like the Apple store or that Ice Pilots DC3 or the Apollo/NASA Lunar Module (where the logos are being used in the context of an actual LEGO model)

I like the way that have been more explicit about "new parts" and not showing your models with new element designs in them (e.g. the Zelda headpiece) or with 3rd party/clone brand parts. I do wonder what they would do if you showed a model featuring long-discontinued parts. I also wonder what the policy is regarding existing parts in new colors (we know they can green-light such things for Cuusoo sets, look at Doc's hair in the BTTF set)

I also like the rejection of things that contain mostly minifigs with no specific set idea attached or of "theme" ideas with no clearly defined set.

if you read the actual rule and not the summary it clearly states that you cannot submit a project that is a corporate or sports logo or mascot. However a corporate logo etc may be used as an element of a greater Lego build project if it is in context. So the Landrover discovery is fine. It's simply the trucks logo's. The Apple store is probably ok. It's signage on a model of a real world type store or building. The Redit martian thing is gone.

[Wodanis]

Well, now all the acceptable projects are now traditional "LEGO sets" like they've chosen to produce from the beginning of CUUSOO. Hopefully the new policies reduce the amount of clutter floating around.

I totally agree. Now if they could just redesign the website so that it is more user friendly to search for projects.

I for one welcome the new rules. I've always been rather traditionalist with my Lego. It is a toy to free the imagination after all so why not just create? Let TLG fuss over production and part creation etc.

[Lego Otaku]

So no new parts, only existing parts permitted.

Hmmm Time to dig out my monorail set and make something (ie Disney monorail) with very high wow and cool factor, make it 6 or 7 cars long using towball plates, list it, and promote it heavily so it'd reach 10k.

Supposedly LEGO lost the mold for some of the parts. Yet monorail parts already exists as official LEGO parts so it's not new mold and fits the rule.

[Paul B Technic]

This sounds a good move to improve the program.

[DrJB]

If you do a Google search you'll see that Lego molds vary in cost from five figure to six figures.

Interesting ... Those figures are public???

You can believe anything you read, but you can also make an educated guess if you work in the field ...

My point is, while I agree with most of the new rules, i'm a bit disappointed that new legit parts are not an option anymore. There were some very smart proposals, such as planetary gears and mecanum wheels parts. I've often encountered the need for a part that does not exist and there was no other way to build my contraption ...

Edited December 13, 2013 by DrJB

[mechamike]

Its a good step Lego Cuusoo hast taken, these rules should have been applied from the very beginning. If You have any insight into production and marketing, you could already from the beginning figure out that certain projects are doomed from the start.

So no new parts, only existing parts permitted.

Yet monorail parts already exists as official LEGO parts so it's not new mold and fits the rule.

I would love monorail to be produced again.. but ssince the mold for monorail is lost, this would require a new mold (and I guess that would be considered as a new part).

I lost count of the times different Lego reps has told us monorail isn't going to happen again, so I would not get my hopes up.