SoNE feedback thread

[LucasLaughing]

Leaving ANYTHING to a random chance will never been seen as fair. Excluding a player because of a bad dice roll? They might never come back to the game.

I agree with Kaitan - it's a cool idea, but I don't think random death/injury would increase my enjoyment of SoNE.

<snip>

• These descriptions are more like different sections/departments within the faction, rather than ranks. I'm just saying that it makes more sense to have actual military 'ranks' e.g. Lieutenant, Commander, Captain etc etc - then leave the department up to the player.
  

I would love to see rank introduced as well. This might not be a common complaint, but I've felt like I've been promoted faster than I wanted to be ... ie, was thinking of stories to go with ISB, but I'm now part of shadowtroopers instead.

I think it would be cool to have different ranks associated with XP, and as your rank goes higher, than you can choose to move to different branches. A possible set-up, using ranks from wookiepedia:

0 XP - Private - Stormtrooper Corps

10 XP - Squad leader

25 XP - Corporal - can choose to enter Survey Corps

50 XP - Sergeant - can choose to enter ISB

75 XP - Lieutenant - can choose to enter Spec Ops / shadow troopers

100 XP - Sergeant Major - can choose to enter Military Research

I don't know if there should be any other benefits associated with rank, other than being part of a "cooler" unit.

Simple, make objectives different. In it's most simplistic form make a trooper "Do this" And then a general "Do that"

As opposed to a general having to: "Do this and that"

I wouldn't mind seeing bonus objectives for those in higher ranks, as long as it didn't cause too much more work for our judges...

As for scoring, my vote is go with top 5, and see if that has an effect on overall participation. If it causes a sharp drop in entries, maybe try something else next time around.

[Brickdoctor]

These descriptions are more like different sections/departments within the faction, rather than ranks. I'm just saying that it makes more sense to have actual military 'ranks' e.g. Lieutenant, Commander, Captain etc etc - then leave the department up to the player.

We went for the divisions rather than ranks because there are a lot of building games out there on flickr and MOCpages that do the 'Grand Army of the Republic Rankin' system with a bunch of ranks, and it always struck me as too limiting for character development and, through the complexity of the ranks, putting too much importance on trying to attain a formal rank than on building with other members of your team.

Saying to a beginner "Your objective is to blow this", whilst saying to a more experienced player, "You have to blow up this, get that, take out that member of the other faction AND paint the whole planet pink" seems restrictive to the beginner and just overwhelming to the more experienced .

I agree with this.

[korpen4444]

Why not do this: Every Free or Episode Build battle scene, earns 5xp or more.

[Brickdoctor]

Why not do this: Every Free or Episode Build battle scene, earns 5xp or more.

How will that rebalance anything? It'll just inflate the amounts of XP you can earn, which'll eventually lead to decreasing the value of each XP.

[korpen4444]

How will that rebalance anything? It'll just inflate the amounts of XP you can earn, which'll eventually lead to decreasing the value of each XP.

I don't know. Just an idea.

[Bkrosell]

In regards to the conversation going on, I think adding more classes would be cool and gives you more freedom to customize your character, a third faction would be also just as fun.

[VK-318]

Way back when SoNE got started, Brickdoctor commented that Rebels vs. Imperials had been chosen because it would make people start their characters at ground level. The idea is that everybody starts as just a basic soldier with basic training and possibly a few mundane talents, and they then go on to become more significant based on the merits of the builder, his or her skill and creativity. When dealing with Jedi and Sith, as Brickdoctor observed, we have people who "barge in" with their super-Jedi or super-Sith. I agree. This would be an incredible disruption. And, as such people as CallMePie, LegoFjotten, Nom Carver, JacobNion and MstrOfPppts, just to name a few, have demonstrated, there is enormous story-telling potential in a the day-to-day life and combat operations of an ordinary soldier. Fundamentally, that is what this contest seems to be about: a war story, not an epic. George Lucas did that, and we are unlikely to do any better in a contest. Within the parameters given, we have opportunity for action-adventure (LegoFjotten), in-the-trenches perspective (Nom Carver), comedy (CallMePie), and much more. Maintaining Star Wars canon should not be a problem, either, since the main characters in the movies spend a lot of real-time "off-stage" during the period of the saga we are currently working on (witness the number of Episode I Imperial builds featuring Lando Calrissian).

For those who find this too restrictive, I would remind you that there are two fields for creativity here; what your character is doing, and, how you will depict it with Lego. Remember that digital builds are not automatically banned, and BEAVeR has in fact offered some excellent advice on how to make a digital build look good in the comments section of his Episode III build "A Fluffy Tragedy". It is not a problem if two people are shown accomplishing very similar tasks; most Star Wars facilities have a lot of redundancies, so the second builder might be dealing with a backup structure. The key is to find your own way of showing the activity.

I think I've just gotten a little off-topic.

Experience points. I think that there are two major issues people have with them. The first is that they are too cheap, and at the same time too expensive: someone who makes high-level builds for an episode quickly reaches the highest ranks, while those who get shut out can spend an eternity trying to climb the ranks. I think that the current system of assigning points is good; we want episode builds to be worth more than free builds, because the episodes are the important battles. But I think we can still control the inflation of points here.

The first step would be to increase the number of points attainable, and spread the ranks existing over this distance. This would mean that there is a little bit more ground to cover for the top-level builders, and also would encourage more participation in episodes as the only way to really climb in the ranks. This would mean that some people might shift in rank as their current ranks' point threshold passes them by. In these cases, a person could have two options; they could keep their current rank (as a sort of brevet-rank; their XP total would not change, but they could keep their assignment), or they could choose to drop in rank as far as, or less than as far as, their actual earned rank.

The second step would be to allow people to chose not to receive points for their episode builds if they do not want to. They could state, in the episode build post, that they do not wish to be given XP, and that would be the end of it. The team would still receive the points, but you don't have to be promoted farther than you want to. This system already exists in free builds, so why not add that functionality to the episode builds?

As far as declining participation is concerned, I don't know how to deal with that. My only observation would be to request that more judges be added or some other such change be made to enable a decrease in wait times for XP and new episodes; the long waits have got to be part of what is killing the contest. However, this may not be readily possible, and if so, I certainly understand. Regardless, those of us who enjoy this contest will need to just stick to it and encourage. One way to help with free-builds or to encourage episode building might be for a group of players to team up, assign parts of a mission to each other, and communicate during the process of construction to make sure they all stay on track. I think this might collide somewhat with the current rules, but maybe we could give that a look?

Anyway, my thanks to Brickdoctor, Lobot, Piranha, and the other organizers for their unfailing efforts and continual good cheer, to CallMePie and that Imperial slug, Lego Spy, for their wonderful sense of humor, and all of you builders for making this an enjoyable contest to watch. I hope to find it even more fun to participate in. And to those of you who aren't building, I

ask, nay insist, that you get started! Get out your Legos, or, if you don't have enough, break out Lego Digital Designer, and get to it! For the Empire!

[MKJoshA]

I just got those planet bios up that I had talked about a couple pages back. I'm also created my own SW map for our use. Let me know if you want anything added.

[Lego Spy]

...and that Imperial slug, Lego Spy, for their wonderful sense of humor...

Edited March 6, 2014 by Lego Spy

[BEAVeR]

With the fourth episode in full progress, I thought it would be a good time to get our thinking caps back on and have a critical look at our beloved SoNE.

A lot of new recruits have been joining lately, and both factions have around 40 builders each now! Not bad at all. I don't think getting new people into this is the problem. It's giving them somehting to work for when they're in it. So how do we keep the game compelling? Firstly, there are the episodes on themselves. Each and everyone has offered it's own challenge. What I particulary like about this new team-approach, is that we really get to share our WIP's and get suggestions from on another. That's really valuable, and part of the reaso most join here, I presume. So that was a great idea!

So the process is good, but what about the goal? I mean, apart from getting the victory for your faction. What's there on a more personal level? Well, we've got the XP-system and the ranks, which is great by its own right, but it doesn't offer an immense deal of satisfaction when you got promoted. In fact, building just goes on. Maybe some extra benefits for higher ranks could work, although I have no idea what benefits that could be. Maybe restrictions, posing an extra challenge for the experienced would really draw them out, and level the gaps in the XP table. Restrictions in size for instance, or in scale, or in amount of parts, or even something completely crazy like only building with Technic parts and Znap!

On the other side, something new wouldn't be off. How about achievements? You know, those things gamers go crazy for and are actually the reason they keep on playing the game? Just what we need, methinks. There could be achievements based on the amount of XP, the number of builds, ranks in episodes, an achievement for building a lot of vegetation, weapons, vehicles, bases... achievements for helping other players, achievements for the size of you builds... The possibilities are endless! Even each episode could come with an optional achievement (like "use this specific part"?) .

That sounds nice and all, but wouldn't that be a great deal of work for the organisors? They'll have to monitor everything every one is doing, and see if they get an achievement. Doesn't sound like a great job... Agreed, but we don't have to do it that way. Inspired by what's going on in GoH now, people could claim certain achievements in their posts (or even in a seperate topic). The organisors (or whoever is in charge of the achievements) just need to check that, thus reducing the amount of time gone. Those achievements could be placed in the player index, or in a seperate achievement-thread ("The hall of fame"?). That would really put people in the spotlight on a more personal level, increasing the involvement in the game. There could even be a trooper/pilot of the month! Who knows what's possible.

I think this could motivate people to keep going on very motivated. It could even help to encourage free-builds. The main reason for this idea is actually that right now, there isn't a single recompensation for individual excellence. I'm fine with the fact there's nothing material to win, but now that even the place in the blog banner has vanished, I think there is a need for a new measure of motivating people. I do hope this helps. Let me know if you do as well!

[Lobot]

Hi BEAVeR, thanks for the suggestions and feedback

We've already got some ideas for the next couple of Episodes which should be sufficiently different to keep it interesting! I don't want to give too much away, but one of them will involve a lot of travelling for one faction, and probably the use of equipment made by S**** and *******na by the other

[VK-318]

Just came back to check on this forum today and was astonished to discover that someone had actually read all the way to the end of that epic-trilogy-sized post!

I have a question for the administrators. Lego Digital Designer has torsos and usable helmets only for the Imperial Snowtroopers and TIE Pilots and the Rebel Pilots. There are, for instance, no good approximations of the Stormtrooper uniform, and the helmet is not paintable, even in Extended mode, in a way that resembles the actual helmet. Anyone know of a good way to get around this? If not, is a stormtrooper with an all-white helmet and uniform a problem? Just a general concern, I guess. I brought it up here because some episodes, according to Brickdoctor's posts in the Introduction & Discussion thread, were going to be required LDD builds, and having nearly all the ground forces of both sides potentially knocked out of the fight by the limits of LDD seemed like an issue for the feedback thread.

[Nom Carver]

I agree with you BEAVeR, there are much improvements to be done, especially to encourage the new recruits to join the action and give the rightful atention to those who have contributed the most to their respective faction, lets say awarding medals, and asigning special misions for higher ranks so the higher you are, the harder it gets for you to win.

The only problem is that even if it doesnt mean a lot of work to keep a close look over every single creation, most of us seem to have pretty busy lives, I my self cant spend more than a couple hours a day in front of my computer, for some reason the awarding sistem is being held back, what could we expect from a more complex sistem? the smartest solution seems to be geting more dedicated staff to run the show (I mean more people, is not like the ones we have already are not doing their best).

...is a stormtrooper with an all-white helmet and uniform a problem? Just a general concern, I guess. I brought it up here because some episodes, according to Brickdoctor's posts in the Introduction & Discussion thread, were going to be required LDD builds, and having nearly all the ground forces of both sides potentially knocked out of the fight by the limits of LDD seemed like an issue for the feedback thread.

No problem at all, as long as he is fighting for the empire .

[Lord Tyrus]

I think one way to add more interest to the game would be to have more available characters, maybe smuggler for the Rebels and bounty hunter for the Imperials. That way, the smuggler could have just decided to join the Alliance and the bounty hunter could have been hired by Vader. If new character choices are introduced though, many people may want to become a smuggler or bounty hunter instead of the normal trooper or pilot which is why I think secondary characters should be allowed. If you want another character, it could cost you an amount of XP. There would have to be limits on amounts of characters, however. The other characters would be playable companions that could be used on their own for a build or together. This would give people more opportunities in free-builds and character customization.

I don't know if all this would be feasible, but use of XP and lack of character customization are an issue.

Edited April 13, 2014 by Lord Tyrus

[BEAVeR]

Well, if the problem is a lack of staff, I would be happy to volunteer to keep this initiative going. As an engineering student, I haven't got more time then any of you, but I'm willing to do what I can. Contact me if you need me.

[Lobot]

Thanks for the offer BEAVeR, we'll bear it in mind

Plans for Episode V are well underway, and we should be able to unveil it shortly after the judging of Episode IV has been completed. I'm hoping that it will encourage a lot of new participants; the objective might be especially interesting for you

[Mr Man]

Thanks for the offer BEAVeR, we'll bear it in mind

Ditto, anything to help the mods out if needs be.

[BEAVeR]

Glad to see a lot of people are willing to help here I don't want to push you however...

I had a little thought about the XP-system. The main reason we wanted to change things, was because it was too easy to get really high, and there were huge discrepancies in the lists.The current solution, of only rewarding XP to the victors, adresses the first problem, but only aggravates the second! It will nearly impossible for those that always end up second to climb the ranks... And of course we want our XP to be an accurate representation of what everyone has achieved.

So what I propose, is a dynamical XP rewarding. The more XP you already have, the less you get. For example, if someone already has 50 XP, and gains a score of 15 in a certain episode, he'd get (15/50)*10 = 3 XP points, where as some one with 15 XP to start with that earns a score of 15 gains (15/15)*10 = 10 XP points. I used a scaling factor of 10 here to make calculating easy (all of this was done without a calculator ), but it could be adjusted to give more desirable results.

I hope things don't get to complicated, but do wish to improve the system!

[TWP]

Hmmm... That scoring system is a good idea!

It looks a bit like what they use on schools for grades. Though I might suggest points/total points x 9 + 1 may be a better idea, as when you then have many points your score will go up with at least one. E.g. 15 points --> 15/50x9+1 = 3,7 points, and 15 point will fetch 2,35 points when you have 100 in total in stead of 1,5.

Maybe it is better to increace the n-therm, e.g. x 8 + 2, or depending it on your score.

So e.g. Points/total points x (10-points/10) + points/10.

15 points, 50 total: 15/50 x 8,5 + 1,5 = 4,05

15 points, 100 total: 15/100 x 8,5 + 1,5 = 2,775

1 point, 10 total: 1/10 x 9,9 + 0,1 = 1,09

with a minimum of 1 point each build

And with total points > 10 or = 10

[Kaitan]

Ditto, anything to help the mods out if needs be.

Double ditto from me as well :)

[Lego Spy]

If you know what I mean.

[LegoFjotten]

The current solution, of only rewarding XP to the victors (snip)

That's not how the rules were interpreted in my head.

I thought what it said was that everyone will be scored as on a scale of 1-10, except for the victors who can earn a bit more (up to 10 x 2)? I could be wrong though.

[Nom Carver]

Thanks to all of you guys, I certainly hope some of you can join us to develop some usefull ideas for the future, regarding to the XP, I agree with BEAVeR, I suggest to do it acording to the rank earned, the higher rank you have, the harder it gets to earn more poins.

That's not how the rules were interpreted in my head.

I thought what it said was that everyone will be scored as on a scale of 1-10, except for the victors who can earn a bit more (up to 10 x 2)? I could be wrong though.

You are correct.

If you know what I mean.

No, please explain.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Nom Carver

[BEAVeR]

That's not how the rules were interpreted in my head.

I thought what it said was that everyone will be scored as on a scale of 1-10, except for the victors who can earn a bit more (up to 10 x 2)? I could be wrong though.

Ah, OK, Nom Carver just confirmed it in the Ep IV thread (and here).Well, that makes things a whole lot better! Sorry if I confused everybody!

About the scoring system I tried to explain. I just saw that it isn't really good for people who begin, because they will earn infinite points the first time... so how about a system where the XP you get =[ (XP earned in round)² / (XP earned in round + XP already on your bill) ]

So if someone has already 50 XP and gains 15, he actually gets 15²/(15+50) = 3.46 XP. Someone with only 10 XP so far will get 15²/(15+10) = 9 XP. Someone that is new earns 15 XP. I agree with TWP to add some minimum score in, so that no one ever gets less than e.g. 2 XP. That would give a formula:

[(XP

_round

²)/(XP

_round

+ XP

_total

)] + XP

_minimum

[Mr Man]

[(XP

_round

²)/(XP

_round

+ XP

_total

)] + XP

_minimum

That's a lot more maths than I'm comfortable with in my Lego .