Generic Contest Discussion

[Erik Leppen]

2 hours ago, MangaNOID said:

As far as the jury debate goes, I think there should not be a jury in any future TC’s

better to have it before public voting if any like discussed but I see it as a mistrust in public voters. 

The 50post rule helps rule out any vote rigging so we as technic builders should not be ‘mistrusted’ to vote how we see fit. There are very experienced builders here to weigh in with their vote. an average of everyone’s colIective is democracy right? I  realise that maybe some entries regarding TC20 were not what organisers wanted/expected but if they still comply to the rules, no matter if they are off centre, then does that not provide interest? 

I still find the Jury comments About panels usage strange as there was another entry of the same model that had no panels and, well, unfortunately no votes either at the other end of the spectrum but same base model. So this example makes the jury comment and voting - ‘modus operandi’ opposite to All public voters.

now the Jury have a right to their own opinions but first place getter had panels in the build also where the original did not.

this is not criticism of the final outcome (we knew the voting rules and abide by them) but just a juries thought processes that are always going to be less broad than a mass of public voters.

so yeah to sum up, for a collective based forum I do not think there should be a minimal jury In the future.

I tend to agree with this. Right now it felt as if he jury just took their picks from the top 10 and declared those the winners. This does make the public voting feel a bit pointless. I wonder if we would have had a much different outcome if the judges just picked their favorites from the get-go. Why have public voting at all, if this is what is done with its results? I mean, the current second-prize winner was tenth place (!) in the public voting. I'm sure the judges can find plenty arguments why it's the best, but apparently, voters don't agree. Otherwise they would have voted differently. And I don't disfavor this person winning - not at all, I think it's a great build - but two entries with more than double the votes each have been declared out of the podium.

But I do get that the judges may want to have a slight edge in voting. What I would suggest is that judges can vote as normal, but their votes count double, or something like that. Or, if the public voters may distribute 20 points, than judges may distribute 50 points. Or, before public voting starts, judges write a few lines about all entries and their thoughts, and then leave the final decision to the public vote. Things like that. That way, it's still possible for judges to steer, but not to disrupt the outcome and basically disquality a top-voted entry like that magnificent 8462 redux that, in my taste, perfectly matches the competition spirit of modernizing a Technic set to today's build style. That's 100% what it did, and it's what the contest was all about, from my point of view.

I feel, if you have public voting, you should agree on respecting its outcome, whatever it ends up being (insofar the voting has been done fairly).

 

But, I have to say, this is a sour spot on an otherwise awesome, well-run and fun contest and it has been a great joy seeing al lthose entries come together, and it's great to have a place like Eurobricks where lots of people come together and do friendly competitions like this. Kudos to all who helped make it possible :)

[howitzer]

1 minute ago, Seasider said:

@howitzer all my videos are just made with my iPhone (same as all my photos). You’ll notice I don’t have a studio as photos and videos are either on a desk or somewhere else around my house. I use Flickr for sharing photos and for my videos I use an app I got years ago called Splice to link and edit my video clips, it’s very simple to use which is great for my skill level!

Yeah, making an adequate video is by no means impossible, but I remember looking at the other contestants' videos for example the Mad Max contest, and there were some where the maker was clearly skilled and had access to great equipment. So obviously their videos looked great and made even the models look great, while others (mine included) were considerably more bland. As I said, I think video generally places too much emphasis on presentation and puts less skilled videographers at disadvantage. Still, video is a necessary evil in some kinds of contests, like the proposed GBC contest.

[Lipko]

11 minutes ago, howitzer said:

Yeah, making an adequate video is by no means impossible, but I remember looking at the other contestants' videos for example the Mad Max contest, and there were some where the maker was clearly skilled and had access to great equipment. So obviously their videos looked great and made even the models look great, while others (mine included) were considerably more bland. As I said, I think video generally places too much emphasis on presentation and puts less skilled videographers at disadvantage. Still, video is a necessary evil in some kinds of contests, like the proposed GBC contest.

Maybe this could be solved by disallowing heavy editing and force some rules to make videos look equal.

• only static overlay text or white text on full-black background. Arial font.
• no added graphics/effects
• simple background (no obvious outdoor footages or footages at special places)
• no real life effects. For example adding real smoke to the scene or special lighting
• no music
• no sharing of a fancier video version on Youtube/wherever until the voting is over
• no slideshow of your high quality pictures (which I do all the time to compansate my poor video skills)
• dunno. Whatever.
• Maybe even a general script could be defined. Like: go aroung the model (general impression), show all functions, show chassis/internals

Similar could be done for photos too. Plain background (anyone can "invest" in a sheet of A0 paper or two), no effects apart form color corrections, no added graphics, etc.

Linking to photo and video tips threads on the announcement topic.

No stickers.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Lipko

[Jay Psi]

3 hours ago, MangaNOID said:

this is not criticism of the final outcome (we knew the voting rules and abide by them) but just a juries thought processes that are always going to be less broad than a mass of public voters.

I think that's been borne out in what Jim has already said (emphasis mine):

18 hours ago, Jim said:

That can be an issue. But I can ask someone like mostlytechnic who doesn't participate in contests, but knows a thing or two about Technic 

On the other hand; I don't think the outcome will be much different if we add more jury voters. But we can try it, if that gives contestants a safer feeling. I know Milan and myself have the same taste, which could be beneficial for some entries and disadvantageous for others.

For what my opinion is worth (having not entered a contest yet), I'm okay with a jury doing some form of (pre-vote) screening as long as it is well communicated, but the above reads like a red flag. I definitely would be more comfortable with a larger jury that had a range of opinions/tastes. It would reassure contestants that there would have been some deliberation and/or compromise in the selection, even if the final result does not differ significantly, if at all.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Jay Psi
Formatting

[howitzer]

1 hour ago, Lipko said:

Maybe this could be solved by disallowing heavy editing and force some rules to make videos look equal.

• only static overlay text or white text on full-black background. Arial font.
• no added graphics/effects
• simple background (no obvious outdoor footages or footages at special places)
• no real life effects. For example adding real smoke to the scene or special lighting
• no music
• no sharing of a fancier video version on Youtube/wherever until the voting is over
• no slideshow of your high quality pictures (which I do all the time to compansate my poor video skills)
• dunno. Whatever.
• Maybe even a general script could be defined. Like: go aroung the model (general impression), show all functions, show chassis/internals

Similar could be done for photos too. Plain background (anyone can "invest" in a sheet of A0 paper or two), no effects apart form color corrections, no added graphics, etc.

Linking to photo and video tips threads on the announcement topic.

No stickers.

This kind of ruleset would work for me.

The outdoor footage one is curious, because driving vehicle around outside would be great otherwise, but not everyone is equal to their ability to find a suitable outdoor place for driving it around. For example where I live during winter months I might be at work at daytime and the rest of the time it's dark, so any footage would be of very poor quality (plus I wouldn't want to expose my precious Lego to snow, rain, etc.).

[GerritvdG]

There is one thing I want to add to the discussion.
 

If there is a jury, then it would be ideal that this group is not the same as the organisers of the contest. The jury is only responsible for judging according to the contest criteria. 
 

We have them three separate groups: organisers, jury and contestants.

Of course we need people that are willing to fulfil this role, otherwise I’m very happy with  Milan and Jim doing  both roles! 

[Jim]

3 hours ago, GerritvdG said:

If there is a jury, then it would be ideal that this group is not the same as the organisers of the contest. The jury is only responsible for judging according to the contest criteria. 

I don't think this is a good idea. Let's not make it more complicated than necessary. As organizers we know the criteria and we are perfectly capable of judging the entries (together with some extra jury members). We will pick the top-20 and the you can do the rest. 

[SirSpoony]

What about building Studless sets in a Studful manner? I can see absolutely no way this could go poorly whatsoever.

[Milan]

1 hour ago, SirSpoony said:

What about building Studless sets in a Studful manner? I can see absolutely no way this could go poorly whatsoever.

Even if we leave this idea for (very) later time due to just having the very same concept in this contest, I reckon there are more people who have a bigger stock of studless then studful parts. Thus, probably not many people would enter the contest. 

[Jundis]

16 hours ago, Milan said:

I reckon there are more people who have a bigger stock of studless then studful parts.

Exactly.

Some ideas:

1. Limited amout of parts. This really comes down to creativity like @SaperPL said. There are great sets with < 300 pieces. Great examples are 42061, 42084, 42102 or even 42116. 

2. Downsizing. Choose a technic set and scale it down at least 1:2.

1+2: Combining both ideas ;-)

3. Tractor Tractor TRACTOR! Build a vehicle using at least 2 of the tires with tractor profiles (now, there are 3 sizes available). Doesn't have to be an agricultural vehicle, but maybe also truck, tractor pulling, exploration,...

[Jay Psi]

My pie in the sky contest idea would be animals. I doubt it would be popular though, it's a niche of a niche.

Why yes, I have been looking at @grohl's MOCs, how could you tell?

[Bartybum]

How about walkers?

[msk6003]

Starting discussion of next contest topic?

I want pull out catapiller contest again. We have lot of varient of catapiller include rubber version.

Or like I said few post before, C+ contest....

[Seasider]

@Jundis a long time ago we did a mini build contest, can’t remember what TC it was but feels like a long time.

@msk6003 Do you mean vehicles with tracks? Would be interesting I do like the Extreme Adventure set. Although I did convert mine to have Wheels 🤣

@Bartybum a Walker competition would be interesting but I have a feeling most of us would end up with similar mechanisms after Googling how they work.

I’m sure @Jim & @Milan have some great ideas up their sleeves. We’ve had some great competitions for lots of years now

[weavil]

On 8/28/2021 at 7:08 AM, Jundis said:

1. Limited amout of parts. This really comes down to creativity like @SaperPL said.

2. Downsizing.

I had a thought yesterday for a contest.  The mods come up with an exact number of parts. Pins, arms, gears, panels, and so forth. Everyone would have to use the same parts for their builds. 

Like how @grohl has made so many models from 42117, but with a more general part list of like 150~250.

[howitzer]

5 hours ago, weavil said:

I had a thought yesterday for a contest.  The mods come up with an exact number of parts. Pins, arms, gears, panels, and so forth. Everyone would have to use the same parts for their builds. 

Like how @grohl has made so many models from 42117, but with a more general part list of like 150~250.

I assume each participants could still choose their own colour scheme?

The parts count would have to be pretty low, like you're suggesting, so that it could actually be checked that no more parts are used than the ones allowed. Or maybe a 3D-model or instructions would also have to be included (though checking through them is an enormous amount of work for the judges).

[TechnicRCRacer]

A rally car / rallycross model competition would be neat. People could use RC with the new buggy tires or whatnot. 

[msk6003]

45 minutes ago, TechnicRCRacer said:

A rally car / rallycross model competition would be neat. People could use RC with the new buggy tires or whatnot. 

+1 for buggy car contest. I want make classic tamiya buggy.

[weavil]

2 hours ago, howitzer said:

I assume each participants could still choose their own colour scheme?

The parts count would have to be pretty low, like you're suggesting, so that it could actually be checked that no more parts are used than the ones allowed. Or maybe a 3D-model or instructions would also have to be included (though checking through them is an enormous amount of work for the judges).

I guess they can choose own color, that would make it easier for people to join. This one would have to enforce progress pics in the posts.

[Jundis]

11 hours ago, weavil said:

I had a thought yesterday for a contest.  The mods come up with an exact number of parts. Pins, arms, gears, panels, and so forth. Everyone would have to use the same parts for their builds. 

Like how @grohl has made so many models from 42117, but with a more general part list of like 150~250.

6 hours ago, howitzer said:

I assume each participants could still choose their own colour scheme?

The parts count would have to be pretty low, like you're suggesting, so that it could actually be checked that no more parts are used than the ones allowed. Or maybe a 3D-model or instructions would also have to be included (though checking through them is an enormous amount of work for the judges).

Oh yeah, that would be really neat, but at least one can pick at least the wheels or lets say 50 additional parts.

But that really puts high pressure on the mods, as many will complain about the available parts...

The checking via a .ldd or .io-file really is hard. Maybe there is some sort of "gentlemans agreement" or the participant have to check the other models (just a link to the file, so everyone can check).

[howitzer]

4 hours ago, Jundis said:

Oh yeah, that would be really neat, but at least one can pick at least the wheels or lets say 50 additional parts.

But that really puts high pressure on the mods, as many will complain about the available parts...

The checking via a .ldd or .io-file really is hard. Maybe there is some sort of "gentlemans agreement" or the participant have to check the other models (just a link to the file, so everyone can check).

I think it could be possible to extract a parts list from 3D file and just cross-check it against the allowed parts list, but it's of course very difficult to ensure that the actual, physical model is made only from those parts. Maybe if there was also a requirement to provide build/disassembly photos which showed every part and their places. Huge amount of work to mods either way.

Maybe for this kind of contest it would be best if there were no actual prizes, to discourage cheating.

[Erik Leppen]

Not everyone uses digital builds, remember. I'm not sure there should ever be a competition that requires using LDraw-like software to join.

I believe actual part limits has only been done once - with the Mini competition, quite some time ago. Had a limit of 200 parts. Everyone had to "prove" this by showing an image showing all the parts layed out. With 200 parts this is doable. I used software to keep the count below 200, but one could work without software. There has also been a C-model contest, I believe, more recently. I don't remember a "proof" being required that your model could actually be built from the selected set.

I'm not sure about a fixed inventory that everyone has to use. Part of the competition it not only the competitive aspect for contestants, but also seeing all kinds of new MOCs. I think with the exact same parts for everyone, I would be less interested in seeing everyone's models. However inventive, there'll always be less variety than when we're free to select parts. Especially if there are onyl 200 or so parts, I expect that some people will find the same solutions to things. In my personal opinion, it would be great as a competition, but less than ideal as an event. (I view EB Technic competitions as "events" on the forum that people can "visit".)

But of course, that's only one opinion. If there is interest for such a competition, don't let me discourage anyone :)

The GBC one still sounds cool. I've never built a GBC module but would be tempted to try it one time for a competition. (I hope the subject doesn't get selected too soon, because I won't have much build time the coming weeks :P )

[msk6003]

6 hours ago, Erik Leppen said:

I believe actual part limits has only been done once - with the Mini competition, quite some time ago. Had a limit of 200 parts. Everyone had to "prove" this by showing an image showing all the parts layed out. With 200 parts this is doable. I used software to keep the count below 200, but one could work without software. There has also been a C-model contest, I believe, more recently. I don't remember a "proof" being required that your model could actually be built from the selected set.

Mini model contest is TC4(even not call it) and C model contest is TC5. and both have part limit. TC4 has 200 limit and TC5 has 600 limit. And I think TC5 is not really C model contest because rule allow combine 2 sets in limit 600 parts. I think doing real alternative build contest with 1 model limit and no part limit will good.

6 hours ago, Erik Leppen said:

The GBC one still sounds cool. I've never built a GBC module but would be tempted to try it one time for a competition. (I hope the subject doesn't get selected too soon, because I won't have much build time the coming weeks :P )

Even it's not very successfully working I built several GBC module and now I have extreme idea. But before built, I need to ask to jim for something.

@Jim If my perfactly GBC module is made fully system part without 1 2L axle and 1 M motor, is this module can accepts for contest? And even if I use 71427 or 43362, I can remove only one technic part, 2L axle and can built whole module in system build.

Edited August 31, 2021 by msk6003

[Lipko]

The [TRIPLE] contest had 500 parts limit too. It was on the honesty of the contestants.

[SirSpoony]

When does this contest officially start and end? (Dates)