Heroica RPG Rules & FAQ

[Capt.JohnPaul]

Endgame, your second solution is much better! No complex formulas or additional rules. Let's see what others think.

[Flare]

Call me crazy, but I actually really like doing the battle calculations. Numbers are my friend, and so is mental math (Actually, I've never once used pen and paper to do battle calculations!)

Suggestion 2: Gold can only be stolen from enemies with gold in their drops. (Wouldnot be subtracted from the drops, but if an enemy has 20 gold, I guess they could have 32 gold stashed somewhere secret on them, and only a rogue can find it?)

Math is fun. But no one uses paper and pen.*pssst* theres a new invention. Its called the... Calculator

I like this suggestion it keeps things simpler

But what happens when an assassin rolls shield against an enemy that drops no gold?

Scuba is limiting his power in this.

Perhaps. But I sure remember him complaining about the Overkill Gloves because Arthur got a lot more gold in one hit than Guts usually gets from one battle. So it might be limiting to him, but more limiting to others?

Team Conspiracy Theories!

Edited July 6, 2013 by Flare

[Brickdoctor]

But the problem with common sense is that it involves too much personal interference from the QM (read my post a couple ones up)

Yes, I know. See the rest of my previous post.

Suggestion 2: Gold can only be stolen from enemies with gold in their drops. (Wouldnot be subtracted from the drops, but if an enemy has 20 gold, I guess they could have 32 gold stashed somewhere secret on them, and only a rogue can find it?)

That makes a lot of sense.

[Capt.JohnPaul]

If someone gets more gold in 1 hit than Scuba does in an entire battle, then something needs to be fixed. Anyways, if it limits others, it limits him too. Suppose non rogue classes make 0 gold. And rogue ones make 10. And suppose Guts now supposes that this is too much gold, and cuts it down to 5. This results in rogues making the same amount of money as each other, and NR classes are closer in the amount of gold.

[Sandy]

I'm sorry to speak up in a negative manner against you, but I want to respectfully point out that Scuba does seem to criticize many features and items, especially when it undermines his superiority. (if I have misunderstood your intentions, Scuba, than please accept my apologies.)

I am aware that Scuba has been critical about game mechanics and items, but that gives nobody any excuse to put his opinions down in such as an abrasive manner as Jeb just did. You can disagree with his suggestion, and give alternatives, but you cannot just say "oh, he's only advocating his own superiority again" without any real evidence to back it up.

This is exactly the reason why games like these have to remain a certain balance - because people are so quick to get jealous if they feel the mechanics don't treat everyone fairly.

[Flipz]

But the problem with common sense is that it involves too much personal interference from the QM (read my post a couple ones up)

I think you're underestimating the maturity and intelligence of the QMs in Heroica.

Scuba is limiting his power in this.

Anyways, I think the Common Sense Clause would work, even if it came down to personal preference. The QM knows what is common sense and what should happen in his own quest. The last thing we need is a "one size fits all" rule that everyone has to follow.

After saying he would drop the issue until/unless something came up to warrant a change. Seriously, he's brought it up three times now for no apparent reason. While I'm not as upset as Jebs, I do have to ask: why? How is some people (Scuba included) having lots of money hurting anyone else? Especially when they bust their @sses trying to help the rest of the party? My one major concern (and it is my ONLY major concern with the nerfing itself at this point) is that limiting gold income will force Rogues to be dickwads about their money and consumables (you want this Remedy? Pay me for it.), or else go broke because they can't afford to spend money on themselves. I'm going to repeat my figure: it costs me, on average, 150 Gold per battle in consumables. Just throwing it out there.

Anyhow, wanted to point out: this should be a guiding principle for ALL rule alterations: "The last thing we need is a 'one size fits all' rule that every QM has to follow." Smart man, CJP.

Suggestion 2: Gold can only be stolen from enemies with gold in their drops. (Wouldnot be subtracted from the drops, but if an enemy has 20 gold, I guess they could have 32 gold stashed somewhere secret on them, and only a rogue can find it?)

This is the alteration I support.

[Flare]

If someone gets more gold in 1 hit than Scuba does in an entire battle, then something needs to be fixed.

But it was just one time. Not a repeating occurence.

[Sandy]

Suggestion 2: Gold can only be stolen from enemies with gold in their drops. (Wouldnot be subtracted from the drops, but if an enemy has 20 gold, I guess they could have 32 gold stashed somewhere secret on them, and only a rogue can find it?)

That would be an easy solution, but not really a logical one.

Besides, there are way less enemies that drop gold than there are humanoid enemies in total, so the rogue income would drop significantly.

[Endgame]

Well, with the gold nerf, I'm assuming more QMs would drop gold. It is easier to give, say, a progg a small satchet of gold then rearranging your enemy types to Humanoid just so the Rogues get something.

[Flare]

I am aware that Scuba has been critical about game mechanics and items, but that gives nobody any excuse to put his opinions down in such as an abrasive manner as Jeb just did. You can disagree with his suggestion, and give alternatives, but you cannot just say "oh, he's only advocating his own superiority again" without any real evidence to back it up.

This is exactly the reason why games like these have to remain a certain balance - because people are so quick to get jealous if they feel the mechanics don't treat everyone fairly.

Of course. Rude and abrasive behavior should not be tolerated, no matter on whos side its coming from.

As obvious, it is extremely difficult to keep an absolute balance between all classes. Because there is no balance. There are different pros and cons for every class, they can't always be compared.

[Zepher]

I'm going to repeat my figure: it costs me, on average, 150 Gold per battle in consumables. Just throwing it out there.

You mean you'd have to play the game like everyone else?! Most of us don't have ALL the buffs EVERY battle.

I support either of these changes. Anyone who says any one person is trying to gain through this change is ridiculous. The rogues are broken. They're getting fixed. You can start over as another class if you don't like it, and then change back when you realize that no class compares to the rogues.

[Flare]

That would be an easy solution, but not really a logical one.

Besides, there are way less enemies that drop gold than there are humanoid enemies in total, so the rogue income would drop significantly.

I dunno, it seems pretty logical to me (and few of us ).

Do you have a better solution?

[Brickdoctor]

Besides, there are way less enemies that drop gold than there are humanoid enemies in total, so the rogue income would drop significantly.

So QMs should drop more Gold from enemies. I know it's been recommended at least a couple times in the past, to drop more Gold and consumbles instead of weapons and artifacts. I usually try to drop one or two weapons or artifacts for each player, and then the rest is just consumables or Gold.

[Sandy]

How is some people (Scuba included) having lots of money hurting anyone else? Especially when they bust their @sses trying to help the rest of the party? My one major concern (and it is my ONLY major concern with the nerfing itself at this point) is that limiting gold income will force Rogues to be dickwads about their money and consumables (you want this Remedy? Pay me for it.), or else go broke because they can't afford to spend money on themselves.

So you're saying other classes should be subservient to rogue classes (and be grateful for every ounce of charity that comes their way)?

I know I'm the one who created these classes, but I always wanted to enforce the "everybody's good at something, bad at something else" -kind of balance. I never intended one subclass to get this much power over everything. The players who have been playing as rogues have the best equipment, the largest amount of items, and with that, most power in general. That's the problem we're trying to solve here - and limiting the amount of extra gold rogues can earn is the simplest solution. The big question is how to do that.

[Kintobor]

Well, with the gold nerf, I'm assuming more QMs would drop gold. It is easier to give, say, a progg a small satchet of gold then rearranging your enemy types to Humanoid just so the Rogues get something.

While not in full support of the your idea, at this point, I feel it's the best if we decide to nerf the rogue at this point in time. I agree with Flipz that we could see stingy behaviour from previously rather admirable rogues, but at the same time I still feel there's a better solution.

[Flare]

I say we completely ditch the 'steal' ability and introduce the 'sneak' ability instead: the hero receives half damage from front row

Alright maybe not...

While not in full support of the your idea, at this point, I feel it's the best if we decide to nerf the rogue at this point in time. I agree with Flipz that we could see stingy behaviour from previously rather admirable rogues, but at the same time I still feel there's a better solution.

There are almost no admirable rogues in the first place.

[Kintobor]

I say we completely ditch the 'steal' ability and introduce the 'sneak' ability instead: the hero receives half damage from front row

Alright maybe not...

There are almost no admirable rogues in the first place.

Um, I know Mizuki lends out the gold she earns, and while Karie may be considered a traitorous weasel, she does pull KOed party members out of combat. I guess it's just a male rogue thing.

[TheBoyWonder]

Romulus, Mizuki, Arthur, Atramor. There are several others, but we give consumables, lens weapons and artifacts. With a nerf that is too bad, this will end.

[Flare]

Um, I know Mizuki lends out the gold she earns, and while Karie may be considered a traitorous weasel, she does pull KOed party members out of combat. I guess it's just a male rogue thing.

2 out of how many. Did you see that picture of all the rogues?

Anyways we're off subject. We should continue the discussion of good rogue bad rogue in the discussion thread.

[Pandora]

How is some people (Scuba included) having lots of money hurting anyone else?

I completely understand why Rogue characters feel that some of the essence of their class is threatened by this, but actually the Rogue based classes are removing the need for any other classes and threatening everyone else, in a way. They have the money to buy/ upgrade their stuff to completely and utterly outstrip every other class, and it's ok to have money - money's why people went Rogue in the first place (clearly gold-gaining is the major draw given how many people are objecting), but to say it isn't having an impact on the rest of the game is naïve, really. To say other people are jealous is also naïve; if everyone wanted gold, everyone would be a Rogue or a Rogue based advanced class.

[Flipz]

That would be an easy solution, but not really a logical one.

Besides, there are way less enemies that drop gold than there are humanoid enemies in total, so the rogue income would drop significantly.

It puts the power in the hands of the QM, which is where it should be. The gold dropped as part of drops is what the party has time to search him for before they have to move on, while the Gold earned from Mugs and the like come from hidden stashes the party doesn't have time to find.

As for the second...well, Doc said it best.

So QMs should drop more Gold from enemies. I know it's been recommended at least a couple times in the past, to drop more Gold and consumbles instead of weapons and artifacts. I usually try to drop one or two weapons or artifacts for each player, and then the rest is just consumables or Gold.

I say we completely ditch the 'steal' ability and introduce the 'sneak' ability instead: the hero receives half damage from front row

Alright maybe not...

There are almost no admirable rogues in the first place.

That's not a bad idea for an Expert Class SHIELD ability, though... Hmm... *scribble scribble*

Gee, thanks. I feel so loved and appreciated. (Part of the reason I'm leaving Rogue--I don't get any appreciation for the help I give, because "you're a Rogue, you're supposed to do that." I really understand how Clerics feel now. )

You mean you'd have to play the game like everyone else?! Most of us don't have ALL the buffs EVERY battle.

I'm just saying, if you're (collective you, not you specifically, Zeph) going to reduce the Rogues' gold earnings, you can't expect them to buy all the remedies and Grand Potions to keep everyone healthy. You can't have it both ways.

Romulus, Mizuki, Arthur, Atramor. There are several others, but we give consumables, lens weapons and artifacts. With a nerf that is too bad, this will end.

A bit blunt, but you ninja'd me with my exact point. Rogues do not get enough credit for what we do for the rest of the party.

You know, maybe it's a really good thing that Rogues are getting nerfed. When Rogues have to look out only for themselves, maybe then the other classes will come to realize how much they've come to rely on the charitable Rogues.

[Endgame]

In a way though, having a higher WP benefits the party, by being able to slaughter other enemies. I'd agree we need some sort of nerf (Nothing as severe as humanoid - only, for sure), but being wealthy does benefit other heroes in a roundabout way.

[Capt.JohnPaul]

Especially when they bust their @sses trying to help the rest of the party? My one major concern (and it is my ONLY major concern with the nerfing itself at this point) is that limiting gold income will force Rogues to be dickwads about their money and consumables (you want this Remedy? Pay me for it.), or else go broke because they can't afford to spend money on themselves.

Again though, that's your choice to help the party. We shouldn't say it's unfair to nerf the gold gaining because then they don't have enough money to spend on themselves. Come on, we all know that's megablocks. I rarely ever use multiple consumables, because I have no money to spend on myself. You guys don't have to take consumables, or help the party. You guys make hundreds each battle, that's more than enough to buy a mead, a nostrum, smelling salts, tonics, potions, etc.

Anyhow, wanted to point out: this should be a guiding principle for ALL rule alterations: "The last thing we need is a 'one size fits all' rule that every QM has to follow." Smart man, CJP.

Thanks. I think QM's know what should happen in their own quest, and any rule about everything won't help some circumstances which requires common sense.

Also, saying gold can only be stolen from enemies who drop gold, might encourage QM's to drop more gold, which will help the other classes. (And specifically, knights, who can finally upgrade SP)

[Flare]

I think that I will have to drop my previous statement on being against the nerfing of the goldearning - I think it will be more fair if the rogue's stealing ability will be nerfed AND quest masters will start dropping more gold, or offering more gold as a reward for the quest. Both must happen. The best way, in my opinion, is Endgame's idea.

[Brickdoctor]

I'm just saying, if you're (collective you, not you specifically, Zeph) going to reduce the Rogues' gold earnings, you can't expect them to buy all the remedies and Grand Potions to keep everyone healthy. You can't have it both ways.

I think we're all okay with that. Don't get me wrong, it's great having a Rogue willing to buy those consumables for me. But that's ultimately not the Rogue's role. Healing is what Clerics are supposed to be doing.