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Eurobricks Mafia II: Mafia School: Conclusion

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I think telling a Vanilla Townie to just be content with what they're told perpetuates the problem of lazy Vanilla Townies. In that position, verify a person and then engage them. I hope the reason was more that he wasn't verified and not that he was vanilla as that's aggravating to hear that Vanillas are supposed to just follow the PRs or Masons. Boo to that. Seriously, boo.

And surviving the night as Mayor? Didn't we let Pie live for one night as well? Did you really think we were just going to kill the Mayor every night? There was too much threat of being watched. But since I was the Watcher, we shouldn't have been worried. :snicker: Seriously, surviving as Mayor is a really bad reason to lynch someone. Bad winning Townies, Bad! :laugh:

No, no, no. We're not saying that vanilla townies should just 'be content' with what the inner town group is doing/saying, they could still offer inputs and engage in meaningful discussions, but they just have to do it in a manner that would not make them scummy (like what Walter and Zepher did). We just thought the way Rick worded his PMs as compared to Walter's sounded "a bit off" to us. Now we don't claim to be good readers of PMs, but that's just how Rick's PM registered to us.

And another no, Rick surviving the night kill despite being mayor is not the sole reason why we lynched him, heck it's not even a big part of his lynch. I'd list the reasons again with the % weight of reasoning for his lynching (my personal rating only):

1. Failed Recruitment = 50%

2. Surviving the night kill despite being Mayor = 5%

3. Scummy PM = 10%

4. Walter's more convincing proof of innocence (PM chain, private convos, extra effort to prove his innocence) = 30%

5. Metagame reason: Great player still living far into the game = 5%

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Rick seemed overly townie, and the fact he was still alive later on seemed suspicious. I didn't see how a player as good as Rick, who was acting townie, could be alive at that point. Unless he was scum.

I didn't want him to be mayor, but he was elected. Eventually we did get him lynched; on the evidence we had was what Kiel posted. Other than that it was just a gut feeling of mine, which isn't much to go on.

No, duh. We were obviously doing well enough that the Scum was afraid to kill or convert us, fearing the other team would be targeting us instead. I mean come on. How dare we survive? That must mean we're Scum. :hmpf: Great. That'll be a hard one to overcome from now on. :hmpf_bad:

I'm not sure why the scum tried to recruit Hinckley and Rick early on, that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

That's because there was no "they". It was just Boy Wonder.

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I don't know if it's because of your, once again, not reading your God-damn role PM, but then using it to your advantage, but it certainly made us sweat for a second.

Hey, this time I stand by that I read it and that the wording WAS ambiguous (you MAY be converted could quite possible be me OR anyone). I didn't realize that I was using it to my advantage until after I started, so that part was 100% my fault, and I apologize. It at least allowed for some illegal exciting action on Day 1!

You were the player who pinged me both most and least. Literally on a daily basis I swung back and forth on my opinion of you. So... great job half of the time! :thumbup::laugh::wub:

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If I were recruiting, I would have gone for the 'middle' players, meaning not those out front, and not those barely posting. The chance of recruitment was equal, but those players were less likely to have PR roles fall onto them.

Hey, this time I stand by that I read it and that the wording WAS ambiguous (you MAY be converted could quite possible be me OR anyone).

That was the cause of a little digression on the deadboard with Scouty, I think. The wording was very deliberate on my part, to not say you were recruitable. Though many thought they were. Ultimately, it was my mistake to not post the roles in the confirmation thread.

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Although we won I feel I could have done more, I didn't contact anyone else behind the scenes except for Walter. I also didn't step up until after Callmepie died. But I'm satisfied with how the game turned around and how I played. I had pretty bad judgement on who was scum early on though, except for Hinckley. But I didn't have the balls to go after you without any evidence. :grin:

I must admit, I wasn't really proud of how I started this game, and midway amidst the consecutive lynches of townies I really felt frustrated and even didn't want to participate at all (hence, the inactivity). It's only when CMP made that crucial revelation on Hinck that gave me a glimmer of hope for this game.

As far as my scum-reading skills are concerned, I was rather all-over the place. Thinking Hinck and Rick were town and Pandy was scum? :facepalm: Leading the lynch on Scouty? :facepalm: The only read I was quite proud of was I was fairly certain that Chromeknight was town, and I even made a late case to save him (but nothing can really stop a bandwagon). My initial hunch on Redblade on Day 1, though weakly unsubstantiated, seemed to have been correct in the end, but it was mostly due to his scummy behavior in the last two days.

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That was the cause of a little digression on the deadboard with Scouty, I think. The wording was very deliberate on my part, to not say you were recruitable. Though many thought they were. Ultimately, it was my mistake to not post the roles in the confirmation thread.

That was in PM, I think. Ultimately it was also my failure to recall/pickup that you said nobody would know, I just got super distracted by my lynch and basically missed the whole Zepher thing. Learn from mistakes, improve :grin:

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If I were recruiting, I would have gone for the 'middle' players, meaning not those out front, and not those barely posting. The chance of recruitment was equal, but those players were less likely to have PR roles fall onto them.

I believe you even stated that in the opening photos/comics. Pandy and Nightshroud did exactly that and it proved to be a successful ploy for the town in the long run. I think it may be just the inexperience of Boy Wonder and the fact that he was suddenly alone after Danny got killed on Night 1, he might've wanted to team up with a veteran player like Hinck and Rick, so from that PoV I understand his choices.

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I think Redblade could easily have argued his way out of his lynch, since there was suspicion on Walter and Peanuts. If he claimed that a mis-lynch on him could doom the town, letting scummy Walt and Peanuts reach parity on day nine, the masons really would have to rethink their lynch. Scum needs to try to the very end.

Unfortunately I had to spend the last day-and-a-half cramming for a history exam. :wall: I barely had time to check in, let alone post anything. Perhaps I should have sat this one out, but I didn't know I'd be this busy and it was pretty fun playing scum for the first time. :devil:

Things were going well until we learned that BoyWonder was the only recruiter left. After that revelation and the lynching of our dear Hinckley, we more or less went into crisis management mode. Still, a fun game all around! It was frustratingly exciting trying to unite with the recruiters. Part of me kind of wants to see that game mechanic again.

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Still, a fun game all around! It was frustratingly exciting trying to unite with the recruiters.

Nice of you to pop by when I was getting lynched ^.^. I was hoping we would talk, but you never did reply with any discussion :sad: . You were the only one to message me this game. During the lynch, I saw that as a little scummy...I was sort of waiting if a scum might do something like that...and it did, too bad I missed it, pretty much.

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Yey town :sweet:

I was very sad to have to go so early, especially as vig :cry_sad:. I know I screwed up a lot, being too obviously a PR townie (thanks Zeph :tongue:) in thread. I wanted to play carefully, but ended up claiming to two people, Cornelius and Walter. Neither of which was the problem itself, seeing as they were both townies (yes yes, I know about conversions... But I was such a lonely vig!), but Walter outed me to Hinck :wall:. Thanks Walter :tongue:. But it seems Hinck and his scumbuddies had already assumed I was vig, so I guess I was screwed anyway...

Boo, you cheater! :tongue: Honestly, I had a couple people tell me they thought I was either PR or Scum and I figured it was because I was online and posting while you were deciphering your PM and I didn't respond to it at all. Rick and Redblade both incriminated themselves responding to the whole ordeal. I saw people saying the same to Rick: "You're either Scum or PR". I don't know if it's because of your, once again, not reading your God-damn role PM, but then using it to your advantage, but it certainly made us sweat for a second.

And me! Damn that whole episode! How was I supposed to know that commenting on Zepher's initial statement about knowing who was convertible or not (which was false!) would lead to that! :wall:

And then when def posted the role PM structures, I guess that sealed the deal on me being a PR townie... Walter picked up on it and contacted me based on it...

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Very interesting result, seems this turned out to be quite a different game from the original! I guess it just shows how differently similar set-ups can go with different circumstances and luck. Well done to everyone that played, it looks like you all had fun! :dhappy:

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And then when def posted the role PM structures, I guess that sealed the deal on me being a PR townie... Walter picked up on it and contacted me based on it...

It was all a pretty crap situation, and ultimately, I blame myself for not putting the initial PMs in the confirmation thread.

I worded all the initial PMs carefully, but when Zepher did as he did, I had to rush out that message. Then Walter was posting stuff assuming that all roles were mandatory, when they weren't (vig and lie detector), and I was pretty frustrated. I could either leave it as is, and get crapped on for misleading town after the game, or I could clarify it, and get crapped on for helping town, so I did as I did and said any in thread use of that info would get penalised. I know Murdock didn't care for it, but it ended up being the fairest way overall.

It was a shitty thing, and I blame myself, but I think the damage control was fair.

Unfortunately I had to spend the last day-and-a-half cramming for a history exam. :wall:

Honestly, unless you were locked in school where your cel-phone is forbidden, I don't get why people have excuses like this. In my life, no matter how busy I am, I always have had half an hour before bed to do whatever. Really, were you studying so hard you couldn't check in? I think the real reason was apathy. It's not the end of the world, but as the last player on your team, you were expected to participate. EB game days are 72 hours.

Were you literally studying or sleeping for the last 72 hours, without time watching TV, or relaxing? I'm not trying to be a dick, but excuses like this are frustrating to me.

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No, duh. We were obviously doing well enough that the Scum was afraid to kill or convert us, fearing the other team would be targeting us instead. I mean come on. How dare we survive? That must mean we're Scum. :hmpf: Great. That'll be a hard one to overcome from now on. :hmpf_bad:

That's because there was no "they". It was just Boy Wonder.

I blame Shadows, he taught me that hehe And yes, how dare you still be alive while townies are dying left and right! That's not good at all. :sadnew:

Technically Danny was alive for the discussion of the night 1 conversion. :wink:

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Thanks all.

I've had a chat on the deadboard and I understand how I got myself lynched with bad play. Chalk it up to a lesson and I'll do better next time.

Well played town! And Hinck too.

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Thank you Def for the awesome game, this was the most fun/stress I've had in Mafia so far; excellent setup!

I felt so bad when I tracked Hinck and it turned out he had targetted Pandora; you all have to understand that I gave EVERYTHING I had (as a masson) to Hinck even though my head mason Pandora advised me against it several times. I was convinced (up to day 4) that Hinck was town anf had a PR hence his laying low and as such I felt confident I could trust him ... such a mistake!

I claimed to Pie on Day 2; my logic was that every scum had a NA and that since I had not seen Pie target anyone I could trust him. Then during the day I started to second guess my decision and decided to confide to Hinck so that should I die, Pie would be scrutinized as he was the only one who knew my role ... Things just got bad from there on. I was recruited to the masons on Day 3 and still kept feeding Hinck info :facepalm::wall: which led to the death of both Pie and Pandora.

I am so relieved that we managed to salvage the situation and that we sat on the info we had for as long as we did; once we revealed ourselves and the info we had, things unraveled quickly for the scum and led to this win! Had we lost the game it would have been 100% on me, or at least 90% on me!!!!!

This game was a great learning experience for me; I had a falling out with Pandora and once we cleared the air she offered some great advice and pointers for future games!

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I'm glad you had fun and learned something, Dave!

I have to say, the town was really active! It's an opportunity to make mistakes, but it really does improve your play overall, and gives you something to consider your next game.

And I'm glad people were able to have fun with a stripped down game like this. It was shorter on narrative, and had few surprises, but really was about the gameplay, and most of the players rose to the challenge :thumbup:

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Great game, my fellow townies. See, I told you I could be trusted. :P

I'm glad the scum were not able to turn the vote to me. I had nothing left to argue. I'll post more thoughts when I'm not on my phone.

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Yay, we won! :classic:

Good job to KDM and Pandora, I think you two are the main reason we won this game. Well, most other townies were doing very well, too.

Oh, and I feel like I failed completely. I was very uncooperative until late, and I guess I could have worked harder with the town in the late game as well. I was rather jumpy, and considering that my first real accusations were against the mason and the blocker while I trusted the scum killer, I really wasn't a great asset to the town, and I guess that's why I survived until the end.

That said, I enjoyed playing the game a lot. The set-up was interesting and highly stressful, in a good way. Thanks for hosting, def :thumbup:

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I'm glad the scum were not able to turn the vote to me.

And this is a great example of why a townie has to never give up when they're backed up against a wall. If Walter had been lynched instead of Rick, who knows what would have happened. Might not have made a huge difference but one more night phase and day for a good player like Rick to work with could have been significant.

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Great game, my fellow townies. See, I told you I could be trusted. :P

I'm glad the scum were not able to turn the vote to me. I had nothing left to argue. I'll post more thoughts when I'm not on my phone.

I was SOOOO set on lynching you after we found out Hinck was scum! You played very well and pulled out all the stops to make sure we understood where you stood. I am looking forward to playing with you again!

- - -

As I was looking back on my PMs I realized that I had 16 private conversation ... 6 of those included Hinck to some extent (once Pandora sees this she may get angray at me again!) ... kind of funny and sad at the same time!

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Oh, and KDM, don't feel bad about not trusting me, or any non-masons. It was extremely difficult to tell scum from town.

If I had taken a penalty vote for not using my action, would mason opinion changed? I didn't think about it until last night, so it was a bit late.

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Good job to KDM and Pandora, I think you two are the main reason we won this game. Well, most other townies were doing very well, too.

I wouldn't take any credit, as it was a total team effort by all the masons and even the non-recruited townies like you and Walter. Pandora and Nightshroud laid out the foundations by recruiting the right people (in the middle of the pack), CMP and Dave's interaction with the scum side (albeit unknowingly) proved to be crucial on the lynches of Hinck and BoyWonder, while Endgame, me, and Zeph (along with 'Shroud) simply 'picked up the pieces' from that point forward. And even if you and Walter were not recruited, you have been cooperative with the voting late in the game and we couldn't have won it without your cooperation. So I think most of the town really did their part well. :thumbup:

If I had taken a penalty vote for not using my action, would mason opinion changed? I didn't think about it until last night, so it was a bit late.

You mean on Night 8 if this game have still proceeded? Honestly I didn't actually know that there would be a penalty for not using one's NA until you told me after the day ended. :grin: I was actually contemplating on telling you to not use your night action since you can't block Peanuts twice in row. I'm not really sure how the masons would've felt if you had taken a penalty vote for not using your NA, it depends if you intentionally or unintentionally did it or if you coordinated it with us.

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I keep forgetting to mention what a genius Rick is. He devised a code so we could pre-prove we had done the killing instead of waiting another game night to convince the recruiters. Boy Wonder just believed me when I contacted him so it wasn't necessary to reveal this code. Apparently Pie's argument was convincing enough. Boy Wonder doubted a trap would be so elaborate.

But here's the code: take the list of players from Day One and assign them each a letter, in alphabetic order, in order down the list. So every player has a logical letter associated with him or her. Whoever we decided to kill, I started my final post of the day with that letter. Rick is so smart. :sweet:

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Obviously I'm very, very pleased we won, but I know that comes at the cost of another team losing, and I think it's really important to recognise what an amazing job Hinck and Rick did. When the town was paranoid that they were being overrun with Scum conversions (or was that just me?), actually it was really just these two who were the ones quietly collecting information and killing off townies. It was so damn close at one point, and given the apparent inactivity of your teammates, it's surely a credit to you both that just the two of you were able to bring the town almost to its knees. I think you guys knew more about what was happening at night than we Masons did, certainly early in the game, thanks to your abilities to look townie and attract information. Before you killed everyone, of course. :tongue: It was a hard fought game by you guys and there were multiple turning points in the game; bad luck guys.

I mean come on. How dare we survive? That must mean we're Scum. :hmpf: Great.

That argument may have held a little more weight if you hadn't killed me, especially as I hadn't claimed any sort of NA. :cry_sad::tongue:

If Walter had been lynched instead of Rick, who knows what would have happened. Might not have made a huge difference but one more night phase and day for a good player like Rick to work with could have been significant.

I completely agree. It is already astonishing the damage Hinck and Rick managed to do to the town as (effectively) just the two of them, and I think this highlights just how close it was so often in the game.

CallMePie, I am so very glad we chose to convert you on night one. You turned out to be the excellent choice we anticipated, and you hit the ground running in the Masons with information, opinion and theories. You worked so well with both me and Shroudy, and your selfless act of stepping forward, knowing there would be a massive target on your head, helped secure the victory for the town by starting a continuous link of confirmed townies. I think you played a great town game, and it was your townieness that led Dave to claim Tracker to to you, and thus his conversion into the Masons (prior to that revelation we had planned to convert Zepher). Additionally, you said the most sage comment when you joined the Masons and saw my paranoia laid bare in the conversation: "You're a Mason, you're supposed to be paranoid!" :laugh:

This game was a great learning experience for me; I had a falling out with Pandora and once we cleared the air she offered some great advice and pointers for future games!

Dave, you've already heard of my annoyance at your unfettered trust of Hinck (and desire to play with him more than us :cry_sad::tongue:), and how you spilled the Mason's secrets to him, confirming both me and Pie as Masons to him, but your post above shows that you truly understand why I was so annoyed. I'm not going to press the matter, and I'm glad that you and I have worked things out in private. I hope you continue to play and, like all of us, improve as a player.

Shroudy, your cover is blown! :tongue: You are a far better (and more active) player than you allow others to believe, and it was fantastic to work with you! We started as just the two of us, and started talking straight away, and it was clear we were on the same wavelength immediately, which is something quite rare. I feel we worked extremely well together, and our teamwork was excellent throughout. You continued this fantastic teamwork after my death to steer the Masons in the right direction, which led to victory. We made the decision immediately that you would be the one going out recruiting, not me, as it seemed more likely that I would attract night actions and that was borne out on one night at least it seems, but it may have led us to be less suspicious of Walter than we were. You did a fantastic job of looking just scummy enough to not even be considered as a Mason (and certainly not an original Mason, and thus recruiter), but not enough to land you in any serious trouble. You were an integral and major part of the Town's victory, and I look forward to playing with you again.

Endgame, Kiel and, latterly, Zepher. Thank you for continuing the fight to the end; I could still see all your discussions, and your voting plan in case Redblade wasn't the last scum was sound and strategical. It was very clear how your decisions came about through discussion and bouncing ideas off each other (and with Shroudy), and it was this activity that signalled the beginning of the end.

I wish I'd managed to stay alive to see this through to the end, but it wasn't meant to be. I'm pleased that I managed to stay out of the spotlight and that I didn't look townie enough for anyone to claim to, or for me to be considered as a Mason recruiter. I'm also pleased I didn't appear to be in any real group (as referenced by Chromeknight), and that any association between myself and Shroudy was completely hidden.

This was a tough game for a lot of reasons, but that's no reflection whatsoever on the setup or the hosting. def I want you to know I thought this was yet again a beautifully crafted game, with great hosting, and great presentation. I'm very grateful to have been chosen to play, thank you.

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