So PF, is it of any use for realistic operation?

[Locomotive Annie]

I guess this is going to be a controversial subject, but I'd like to state my case as to why I decided not to use PF to run my railway.

Firstly I like smaller sized tank engines from the late 19th Century - early 20th Century period and most of them have limited room to carry a battery pack.

Secondly I've run all my railways in other scales using realistic train movements, I like shunting the yard to make up trains as well as have my locos go through the motions of being readied for service before leaving the shed to carry out their days work. I have no plans to suddenly change the habits of a lifetime now that I'm working in 'L' gauge so having permanently coupled vans or coaches to carry battery packs just plain isn't going to fly.

Thirdly while I do have some electric outline locos on the RC system and I made use of RC with my 'G' scale locos I don't see it working out for any of my Lego tank engines. The RC circuit boards are easy enough to hide, but again it's the batteries that's the problem. Having to stop and half dismantle a loco to change the batteries isn't my idea of fun and then there is the whole business of having a pile of rechargeable batteries to hand and keeping them charged.

PF is worse than RC to my mind as the sensor isn't exactly compact and needs to stick out like a wart somewhere if it's to work properly.

Fourthly I just don't see PF as giving the fine control that I want when it comes to shunting movements or slow running in general.

So IMHO that leaves either 9volt or 12volt as the only viable system for the serious railway operator. Personally I don't like the running rails acting as the power source or the loco driving wheels acting as power pickups. That was one of the reasons why I stuck with '0' Gauge 3 rail for a good many years until the expense became too much for me and I sold it all except for a few handmade items which I didn't want to part with.

For me at least that leaves the 12volt system as the only workable option, which is a worry because as beautifully made as the 12volt Lego mechs are they aren't getting any younger or any cheaper. Plainly I'm going to have to learn how to convert later series Lego mechs to 12volts and contact rail electrical pickup, but I don't see that as being too much of a problem.

I will say that I wish I had found out about Lego trains years ago though. When I think of all the hours I spent cutting and shaping metal and burning my fingers with soldering irons building my own locos when there was already the means out there to easily and cleanly build any loco I wanted without all the metal shavings, small cuts and burns......... Well I just don't know (sigh).

Please don't ask for photos of my old models because it's only recently I became a camera owner so I never took any photos of them. When I became ill I had to sell all my tinplate trains and handmade models to pay the bills so in a way I suppose it was just as well that I did go in for all that finger burning afterall (another sigh).

[Phoxtane]

Although they're expensive, the rechargeable battery boxes are well worth the cost. I'll need to pick up another one along with my Horizon Expresses, but then I'll never have to take it out of the train.

[Alasdair Ryan]

The rechargeable battery box is well worth the money for those users that are ''battery heavy''.

For me however the same can't be said for the power functions speed controller,It lacks the fine control that the old 9v system has.

[Electricsteam]

The rechargeable battery box is well worth the money for those users that are ''battery heavy''.

For me however the same can't be said for the power functions speed controller,It lacks the fine control that the old 9v system has.

I am not sure.. I love the speed abilities of Pf .. (changes on power level in bats.) And I'm not sure about the 9v system because I only has one loop a track.

[peterab]

My standard response to this sort of claim is Holger Mattis' BR80.

It is an 0-6-0 tank engine, includes full PF gear, and is self sufficient. It is no doubt a very clever model, and is eight wide, but it does prove PF does not have to be as limiting as most claim.

Using LEGO's rechargable battery, while it is expensive, helps to remove part of the trouble with having to disassemble engines to recharge, you just have to allow access to the power plug. Given it's storage capacity and the fact it has its own protection and charging circuit it's not bad value for money if you can get one at US prices. The use of a 9V motor as a pickup allows you to recharge from a small section of 9V track overcoming all the issues.

The PF sensor can be hidden behind windows, though it restricts the line of sight somewhat, but it still works.

For slow running it's hard to beat the PF XL motor since it has much lower gearing than any of the train motors, granted the 7 speeds of the PF controller isn't great. Even the M motor is pretty slow.

While I do own a bit of 12V track, I find the centre conductors to be very non-prototypical, and PF gives a lot more flexibility for powered wheel arrangements so my choice has been almost exactly opposite yours. I guess having four systems allows a lot of choice, and it allows us to pick whatever suits our chosen prototype best.

[zephyr1934]

I've never played with the 12v system, but it looks like it was the best engineered of all of the train systems (and certainly was the most developed system, with remote switches, working block signals, etc.). The motors were probably the most powerful of the train motors and with the rubber tires on grooved track, they had the best traction. The one drawback with the 12v system in my eyes is the fact that the power rails looks more like Lionel than it does real railroad (which doesn't seem to bother you and I don't think it would bother me much either, since none of the stock lego rail options look very realistic).

In my opinion the two things that 9v has over 12v is the aesthetics of having only two rails, and the fact that the parts are 15 years newer and thus are more widely available. If the third party rail suppliers pan out, 9v could be very attractive.

The two things I hate about PF is the fact that you do have to charge the batteries (or replace them) and the fact that you now have to hide 4x12x4 worth of power and controls somewhere on your train. It is pretty easy to hide the electronics in a carbody locomotive, but not so easily done in a small steam engine or a 4 wide hood of a freight diesel. I still like the "always ready" of 9v. It also becomes expensive to have more than one powered PF locomotive on a train.

However, I've been able to power two PF train motors under one locomotive from one battery and IR receiver, and have found it to be more powerful than two 9v train motors (the recommended limit for a 9v system). With PF it is also nice to not have to worry about power drop around the 9v loop. The PF train is just as happy to run on any corner of the layout, the heavy 9v train slows when far from the power drop. PF is also happy running at slow speeds, 9v needs higher speeds to keep moving all the way around a loop.

Step away from the PF train motors, instead use a pair of XL motors and as Tony once said, you can pull a Buick. It runs smooth and strong, powering two XL motors from a single battery. My one build in this style is definitely my most powerful locomotive and is comparable to at least 6x 9v motors (I pulled at least 51 heavy cars for 30 min). Note that you can fit all of the components on a 6x28 train baseplate. The engine was all for show, the actual power came entirely from the tender. If you can get away with having a large car on your trains, you could build several different unpowered, small, steam locomotives and push any one of them with your PF power car (thus reducing the number of batteries and IR receivers you need to run a respectable railroad).

It is also nice that you can run multiple PF trains on one loop, but you do have to pay attention to prevent collisions (if you are comfortable with traditional model railroading, with PF you lose the ability to set up blocks or use DCC).

You had mentioned an interest in shunting and realistic operations. That is going to be a challenge with all of the options. It is easy to pick up cars, but difficult to drop them. 12v had remote uncouplers, but they are quite pricy now, require the old style magnet holders (which are also quite pricy) and I've heard they did not work well (perhaps one of the folks lucky enough to have a lot of 12v could quickly dispel this last point). Since PF has two power outputs per receiver, it is a pretty good option for shunting, e.g., Selander's shunter and mine. Even then, all you can do is drop the entire train. To actually switch cars you still have to build trackside uncouplers if you don't want to reach into the layout, and even then you will still be limited in the level of realism you can achieve.

If I were starting from scratch, I'd probably just do PF. Personally I have a large base of 9v, and so 9v will dominate my layout for some time, but that's the nice thing, you can mix different propulsion systems. In your case having 12v for the locomotives that you want to keep small and independent, and perhaps PF for the larger ones or those that can be coupled to power car.

[Hrw-Amen]

I have found that in small shunting diesels it is quite easy to fit all the PF stuff, if somewhat of a squeeze, but it is possible. I have three to date that use this, one runs on a M Motor and the other two use the standard PF Train motor (which gives more room to hide stuff.) but I agree the problem is the ability to control speed at the lower end. Either it is so slow (With the M Motor.) that it does not have enough power to actually move the train, then when you go up to the next notch it shoots off at ridiculous speed, or with the two PF Train motors they run around fine on a circuit but trying to actually do any shunting is all but impossible as they just do not go slow enough to not smash the trucks off of the track or into several scattered parts. I don't really see the batteries themselves as being a problem as they last a reasonable time for the amount I get to use the trains and also when I put them away I always remove the batteries and charge them up for next time. I do have quite a large collection of rechargeable batteries. I would like to own the proper LEGO rechargeable packs but they are prohibitive in the cost.

I cannot say that I have used the 12V or 9V system (I used to use the 4.5V system.) but looking at it the 12V system track looks very ugly to me with that line in the middle for power and as a result not very real. The 9V sounds like it may have been the best option and it is a shame that they dropped it as I imagine it gave much better control of speed. But there you go, not much we can do about it really. I guess we are stuck with what we have been given for now.

As a distraction of sorts, i do find that the couple of 4.5V trains I have running are much more reasonable in low speed running with the PF system. They are nowhere near as fast as the new train motors and as a result the different spots on the 7 stages of the PF controller are not so far apart making running a slower engine for shunting much more easy. The only trouble is that the old 4.5V battery boxes are so big they have to be tender engines to hide it. Whilst it was not unknown for tender engines to be shunters I guess it was not impossible?

[jmchisel]

An interesting discussion about a topic I've been pondering myself recently. I have a large 12V collection but have been augmenting it with newer sets such as 7939 (the yellow cargo train) because when deals come on Amazon or wherever, I can get so much more train for my money than trying to win "classic" 12V sets on eBay.

I agree with many of the responses so far - yes, 12V trackwork looks pretty terrible, but the flipside is the absolutely awesome control you have with remote points and working block signals. The 12V system was probably actually too sophisticated for the 12-16 year-olds it was pitched at. But it if you really love shunting your yard without having to have the "hand of god" constantly reaching in to operate turnouts, there's no better option in the LEGO world.

Oh and if you try *really* hard, you can make 12V look pretty incredible - check out Carl Greatrix's old layout: http://www.flickr.co...in/photostream/

Regarding the remote decoupler for 12V - that was actually the first 12V accessory/addon/plugin/whatever I had for my 12V system - my Dad got it for me in about 1985. Didn't work properly then, still doesn't work properly now. The subtle difference between the coupling catcher's "raised" and "lowered" position was simply not enough, even for completely stock LEGO rolling-stock. If you are running MOCed wagons, forget it, you'll almost certainly be either smashing into the decoupler all the time, or overshooting it completely when trying to use it.

I wish he'd got me a 7860 signal instead - you can never have too many!

I have too much of an investment in 12V accessories and track to just let it go, so what I'm planning to do is a hybrid - as outlined here:

http://www.eurobrick...showtopic=63535

Basically this lets me retrofit PF motors with 12V control - so no battery box or PF sensor required. I'm yet to actually finish my first MOC with such a setup (still waiting on a Bricklink order or two) but will definitely be showing it here.

Hope the links give you some encouragement at least!

[bricks n bolts]

Just the PF plugs / wiring alone take up too much space...

[Spitfire2865]

PF is my choice as it is a bit of a challenge making everything work and fit. Its easy to just snap a 9V motor to something, but it takes real work to fit multiple parts in and have them all work together. Although the other systems arent bad as well. I just dont want to go to the hassle of finding parts from older systems.

[Duq]

To answer the question in the title: yes. Is PF the perfect solution for every scenario? No.

Yes, PF is more challenging when you're building smaller engines. In America everything is bigger and that goes for trains too. Tank engines are rare, and tenders are big enough for a battery box and two XL motors. In Europe engines are smaller but as has been pointed out it is possible to build small PF engines. Holgers BR80 is a work of art and my own KoF is about as small as it gets on PF. I must admit it doesn't run for very long but it does the job. And it takes regular rechargable 9V batteries.

Where I think PF has the edge over all the other systems is that like in real life you can build horses for courses as they say. Real life shunters have a low top speed and high speed trains aren't used for shunting. So you can build a shunter using an XL motor and/or gearing for low speed and lots of grunt. You can use the standard PF train motors or a few M motors if you want speed for your intercity train at the cost of low speed accuracy.

[Bricktrix]

Yes PF is good for realistic opperation. Would I use it? NO.

I have a huge investment in both 12v and 9v gear. Whilst I love the 12v for opperational diversity, it does look "un-cool" with the huge 3rd centre power rail. The control pannels can end up being absolutely huge if your using all the functions, and it really is a labour of love. If you've seen my old static layout, (i.e. housebound) it required cleaning every other day if being used regularly. Not only do the rubber tyres wear and "spread themselves" over the track which blackens it very quickly, but also the motor power pickups have 2 fundamental problems. 1. regular use wears them out to a point of not making contact with the power rail. 2. the "discharge" the connections cause, requires the power rail to be fully cleaned around the entire layout a minimum of once a week with meths or something similar, otherwise the build up results in no power, lack of power or intermittent power....the latter being the biggest problem if hauling long heavy rakes. Intermittent power causes the engines to stop and start, breaking the couplings, engines zoom off alone and end up in pieces off the next corner.

I chose to use 9v for display, its a much nicer looking system, far less "labour" intensive and if your willing to do a few mods, can be made to operate exactly the same as the old 12v system, even using the add on switch, signal, etc controls if you so wish....infact this is exactly what I do with my display.

PF, well it has many perks and many disadvantages. Personally I hate coming / wanting to use something, only to find I have to wait for the batteries to charge. Thats the main draw back to me. Yes it takes up a lot of room, this can be overcome if you start to get "trick" with certain things, or if you want to "mod" stuff, use custom batteries, etc then you could reduce it to almost nothing, but to me, its not worth putting that effort into because I dont want a battery system that can fail you in bright sunlight....I've seen it happen far too many times at shows and even had it happen on my layout when someone put one of their PF engines on and couldnt stop it due to the signal being blinded by sunlight. I have PF, I keep picking it up and saying to myself I'm going to incorporate it into my next build, (I even did with the one I'm currently building now) but then remember all the problems that I dislike about it and go back to 9v. Thats not to say that one day I wont use it, but it will go into something that would be built more for static display rather than running. That is another perk of it though, at least its compatible to run on whatever system you already have.

Carl

[Locomotive Annie]

My standard response to this sort of claim is Holger Mattis' BR80.

Peterab, that is a great model loco, but compared to my small boilered tank engines it is huge.

Zephyr, thanks for your thoughtful comments and advice. I do agree that the central contact rails are not great when it comes to the appearance of the 12volt system, but after running 3 rail '0' Gauge for some years I think I can live with it. Here in New Zealand some steep logging tramways were constructed on the Fell system with a paired central rail to provide additional braking. I know it's a bit of a stretch, but provided I build a few models of Fell system brake vans and attach them to all trains I can claim that it's prototypical.

As you say uncoupling during shunting movements is a problem, but then my 3 rail '0' Gauge trains all had hook and link couplers, and my 'G' scale trains had coupling hooks and chains so manual uncoupling is something I'm quite used to.

Hrw-Amen, what you outlined with your own experience with PF is largely why I feel it is not for me. It's interesting that you found your 4.5volt locos would run better on PF; - perhaps I should experiment with that since I own quite a few 4.5 mechs.

jmchisel, thanks for reminding me about that thread on converting later mechs to run on the 12volt system. That's something I will be investigating as I have one or two locos on my build program which need a solution like that. And yes if anybody has demonstrated what can be done with 12volt trains Carl Greatrix is definitely the man of the hour.

Just the PF plugs / wiring alone take up too much space...

bricks n bolts, yes exactly, that was something that I picked up on with PF almost right away.

PF is my choice as it is a bit of a challenge making everything work and fit. Its easy to just snap a 9V motor to something, but it takes real work to fit multiple parts in and have them all work together.

Spitfire2865, my 'Improved F' class tank engine is presently being rebuilt for 12volts with a full Technics chassis so there isn't always a 'snap in' solution to be had with either 9v or 12volts.

Duq, I agree with the points you have made, but unfortunately PF doesn't work for very small locos when towing around a battery in a coach or goods van isn't an option. I may build one tender loco, most probably an 'Ab' class Pacific like my grandad use to drive when he worked for the railways, so then I might be able to delight in plenty of room to try out PF as an option, but an 'Ab' isn't really an ideal locomotive for the type of railway I'm building so it would just be a nostalgia piece rather than a proper part of the roster.

I dont want a battery system that can fail you in bright sunlight....I've seen it happen far too many times at shows and even had it happen on my layout when someone put one of their PF engines on and couldnt stop it due to the signal being blinded by sunlight.

Whoa! - that is something I didn't know, - sunlight interfering with the PF signal. Definitely out then

Thanks Carl for posting about your experience with running a 12volt system. Apart from the traction tyre dust it sounds very much the same as running a DC 3 rail '0' Gauge layout.

Edited February 24, 2013 by Locomotive Annie

[ronenson]

Although the battery and receiver do take up a lot of space, the fact that you can control all trains individually is a real plus for me. I simply see it as a challenge to build them in and still have a good looking train. I've been able to convert my old 7760 to PF without a separate battery car, so it can be small. I did use a 9V block battery instead of an official lego battery box though, this saves a lot of space.

[Locomotive Annie]

For a 7760 loco you definitely would need to use a different battery instead of the official Lego one.

[Spitfire2865]

Locomotive Annie, I feel I didnt express myself clearly. My "Easily snap in" idea was obviously not for everything. I mean that its a lot easier to put a self contained motor into something rather than an entire mechanism or battery and stuff that PF requires. Im not saying its always easy. Hell, Sometimes its impossible.

Oh and also, I used to use 3 rail O gauge. Ahh memories.

[Locomotive Annie]

Locomotive Annie, I feel I didnt express myself clearly. My "Easily snap in" idea was obviously not for everything. I mean that its a lot easier to put a self contained motor into something rather than an entire mechanism or battery and stuff that PF requires. Im not saying its always easy. Hell, Sometimes its impossible.

Oh and also, I used to use 3 rail O gauge. Ahh memories.

It's Ok, I think I wrote that before I'd had my morning cup of tea and i was feeling a bit snappy.

Yes I still have the odd few bits and pieces left over from my 3 rail days. I've even got some old Lionel mechs, I wonder how they would go if I widened the gauge of the wheels to 'L' gauge and fitted them with 12volt pickups

[Spitfire2865]

DO IT! Thats an amazing idea.

What voltage does Lionel run with anyway? I cant seem to remember. It could potentially run with 9V with some modification.

I still have all my O scale things. I cant sell them. Too much sentimental value to me.

And yay you like tea.

[Locomotive Annie]

I think it is 12 volts for the old Lionel trains, but the motors are pretty robust so I think they would cope with whatever a Lego transformer might throw at them. I'll have a dig about and see if I can find a suitable subject for experimentation. Not sure what I would build as a bodyshell, but I guess the thing is to get it to work first and wonder about that later.

I kept a couple of handbuilt locos as well as some old clockwork locos along with some prewar scratchbuilt British outline rolling stock. I might set up a station diorama to display them sometime when I feel like doing something different.

Tea is gooood

Edited February 25, 2013 by Locomotive Annie

[Spitfire2865]

Well seeing as O and Lego scales are so close together when it comes to trains, You could build a Lego body shell of whatever shell the mech came off of.

It sounds like, even with the limited collection you still own, its still impressive and interesting.

And I would love to see some pictures of them.

[Locomotive Annie]

My camera is charging at the moment so over the next few days I'll look out some of my treasures and take their pictures.

[peterab]

Peterab, that is a great model loco, but compared to my small boilered tank engines it is huge.

Well, it is bigger, but then again compared to the width of the track it's probably more closely prototypical too, it being a standard gauge shunter it should probably be wider with respect to the track. To some extent the limitations you are experiencing are of your own choosing; because with LEGO we can model in whatever scale we wish. That scale will impact on which power source is most effective. It doesn't make one or the other better in general, just better for a particular need. Here is an example, these are narrow gauge prototypes, but Alex chose to build them about 12 wide.

As a clear example of where PF is the best choice, many large US steamers are now being built with a pair of XL motors because they will pull huge rakes at prototypical _slow_ speeds.

Looking at your Tank Loco I don't think you would need to go much larger to fit in the receiver in the firebox, an M motor underneath the cab as in HoMa's BR80 and a 9V battery (not a lego battery box) in the boiler. If you wanted to remove the circuit board from the receiver, and trim the wires to fit, you'd definitely have plenty of room. I'm pretty sure it would be doable in 7 wide, with a five wide boiler. You may even be able to hide the M motor in a four wide boiler, and the battery under the cab.

[Locomotive Annie]

Out of interest I checked how much 12 wide was against my 15 point something mm scale 0-6-0 tank engine that I built with the idea of having a large scale Kotanga Tramway in the garden and guess what, - it was 12 wide. So that means those magnificent locos that Alex built must be pretty darn heavy and they must have used up a lot of bricks. My tank engine is RC operated and its side tanks can swallow up a huge amount of batteries. I don't run it as the garden railway never did get built, it sits on display in my room and I won't ever sell it because I like it too much. With the garden gauges like 'G' & etc I had to face the fact that I just plain didn't have the room for a railway that big; - which is why I turned my attention to Lego and 'L' Gauge.

When I first started building trains with Lego I did some experiments to see what size I wanted to build to. I tried 10 wide, but it was getting too much towards being like my garden railway loco and the few wagons I'd built for it. In the end I settled on 8 wide as having the right amount of width to build a steam loco with nice proportions, but at the same time not to be too hungry on bricks when building anything. I took the track gauge as a given and decided not to mess around with custom track gauges even though I've still got a huge amount of '0' Gauge track that I could have used. When I was young and keen I did the whole finescale, exact gauge thing and I really can't be bothered with it now. I just want to run trains and have fun.

When I was building the 'almost Climax' I experimented with hiding AA batteries inside various parts of it and trying to make a battery loco of it, but in the end I find myself agreeing with Carl Greatrix when he says he doesn't like wanting to use something only to find that the batteries are flat. As far as I'm concerned flicking over the wall switch and the whole layout comes alive is very much my thing and I feel that the old 12volt system will do it for me best.

[Locomotive Annie]

I purchased Tony Sava's Garratt plans recently and I was going to build it up as a 12volt loco, only since I have a couple of PF motor blocks in the spares box and some medium BBB wheels I thought I might build it as a PF loco instead for experimental purposes. If I don't like it I'll just convert it for 12volts, but it works Ok then it can stay on the roster as a PF loco.

A Garratt is likely to be my only 'big' loco for the Kotanga Tramway even though Tony Sava's plans are for a very small Garratt so it seems to be the most likely candidate for a PF installation.

[bricks n bolts]

I purchased Tony Sava's Garratt plans recently and I was going to build it up as a 12volt loco, only since I have a couple of PF motor blocks in the spares box and some medium BBB wheels I thought I might build it as a PF loco instead for experimental purposes. If I don't like it I'll just convert it for 12volts, but it works Ok then it can stay on the roster as a PF loco.

A Garratt is likely to be my only 'big' loco for the Kotanga Tramway even though Tony Sava's plans are for a very small Garratt so it seems to be the most likely candidate for a PF installation.

No reason not to use PF motors and BBB wheels with 12v, just run the track power on three quarter power and you'll be fine. Connect the motors via your '70s pickup bricks.