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Elander

Why doesn’t LEGO provide any battle packs?

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Why doesn’t LEGO provide any battle packs?

We finally see the first pictures of the third LotR/Hobbit wave and in that line are once again no battle packs included!? That is strange since that theme (especially that theme) a battle theme with big armies is.

When I remember the first wave, my thoughts going to Moria and to the both Helm’s Deep sets:

Why doesn’t LEGO replace Eomer with a Lothlorien warrior elf and include Eomer into the big Helm’s Deep set? As a consequence could we buy that one LEGO "Uruk-hai army" set multiple times and could collect a small Lothlorien elf army without to receive multiple main characters like Eomer.

My mind was spinning when I saw the Moria set without a possibility to collect multiple Moria orcs. We could create so great MOCs with many Moria orcs when LEGO gives us a chance for that.

And we get the same issue with the Misty Mountain goblins…..

I can’t understand LEGO’s marketing strategy?

How LEGO wants to sell many LOTR/Hobbit sets when LEGO doesn’t provide to us the opportunity to buy those sets multiple times? Seriously! Who need 10x times the same main characters?

Or how LEGO wants make money when some few people purchases those warriors at Bricklink?

That all makes no sense! ??

And to be serious: Who of the adults is so crazy and buys for example the Moria set 5 times in order to receive 10 Moria orcs? In comparison to the whole audience they are very very few people!

I can only repeat: LEGO can’t sell many warriors when LEGO doesn’t provide many warriors. And the LotR/Hobbit is a theme which based of many warriors.

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I think legos main strategy is to sell all sets of a wave (especially the big oes) to as many customers as possible instead of one small army builder set multiple times. Remember: there are more casual.customer than serious army builders. And thus lego strays the main characters of a (licensed) theme through all sets of a wave.

But dont worry about eomer. He can easily be customized into a generic rider of rohan or any kind of gneric knight by replacing the face and the arms

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The license might also preclude them from making all-figure packs.

If I remember correctly the Star Wars license that Lego holds is for construction toys not figures, therefore they can never produce a pure army-builder pack for Star Wars because that would be the figures license and someone else holds that, there must always be a tree or vehicle or building with it.

The same might well be true for the LoTR license. Other companies have other LoTR licenses, Game Workshop presumably holds one for wargaming which may (or may not) have exclusivity clauses attached to it that stop other licensees producing battlepacks.

It's also worth pointing out the Army-Building is a specialised form of collecting and that market is nowhere near as big as the main kids (or their parents) in toy-shops market which is Lego's core business and which it tailors it's strategy to regardless of what the xFOL fan-base thinks.

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Lego only holds the construction toy license for the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings. Bridge Direct holds the action figure license. That means Lego cannot legally release an all figure pack as that would constitue an "action figure" toy set. I beleive they have the same license for Star Wars. Of course this is easily bypassed by just throwing in a small vehicle or building piece to build as we have seen them do in the Star Wars battle packs.

Personally I agree with Elander, this line SCREAMS to have battle packs included with each wave. Right now the smallest sets are fairly boring and don't offer anything terribly interesting besides being a cheap buy. I constantly see shelves filled with Riddles for the Ring while the bigger sets only have 1-2 of each set, or they are totally out. If they made the cheapest set in each wave 1 or 2 battle packs I think this would drastically change things. I also don't think it would hurt the sales of bigger sets. Lego just has to make sure the bigger sets are appealing in their own right and have their own exclusive figures (special named characters, different exclusive version of grunts, etc.).

Like I said in the 2013 LotR/Hobbit thread, a battle pack should compliment a bigger set (like Uruk-Hai Army did), not compete with it. If it competes Lego is doing it all wrong. For instance they could offer a big $60 Mumakil set with maybe an exclusive Haradrim grunt and the chief, and then a smaller 12-15 dollar battle pack with 3-4 more Haradrim. That way kids would still want one of each because both still offer something unique, and AFOLs and army builders would buy 1-2 Mumakil then dozens of the battle packs.

I honestly don't see ANYONE buying the small battle pack and then being like well, I got my 4 random grunt Haradrim so I am gonna pass on that huge, awesome Mumakil set with the great looking exclusive Haradrim chief and royal guards. The only ones doing this would be the people who can't afford the Mumakil in the first place, and then it wouldn't matter since they can't buy the big set regardless. I look at the battle packs as being sold in the exact same quantities to everyone else as the small sets are now, and then to the AFOLs and army builders they would easily sell 5-20x better than the small sets currently do. All the while still allowing the bigger sets to sell as they normally would.

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What Deathleech said is 100% spot-on, especially as regards to the idea of having battlepacks complement and even encourage the buying of bigger sets. Additionally, think of all of the times you see a kid dragging his parents through the Lego aisle, begging for a new set. As it is now, if the kid wants a LoTR set, they'll end up getting one of the $10 sets. BUT, as these sets contain unique characters - Frodo, Gandalf, Gollum, and the like - that kid won't be getting that set again. But if battlepacks were available, is parents could easily be convinced to buy him multiples. TLGs silence on battlepacks really is mystifying.

~Bravey

Edited by dwarf-brik

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I really don't get Lego's logic on this one. Riddles for the Ring and say, Gandalf Arrives have no appeal to me whatsoever, and from the fact that I see them collecting dust en masse, I'm not alone there. I get that sets like that give kids a chance to get main guys on the relative cheap, but if there was a LOTR analogue to something like 6918 Blacksmith Attack with a couple of goons, it would sell like hotcakes.

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As has been said before battle packs may very well follow later on in the theme's life but I can see reason in Lego not producing them at this point. I would think kids were more interested in getting the main characters than generic troops if they had to choose and so it seems reasonable that the first sets push the main characters. I think these sets are more likely to bring people into the theme as well.

If and when the theme gathers enough momentum that it has established a large fan base who've collected most of the main characters through various sets already then I imagine Lego will release more battle pack style sets. I would certainly not be surprised to see a chess set at some point either.

Edited by Weil

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I agree with most of what's been said... Battlepacks to support the larger sets would be ideal, and make a LOT of sense especially for LOTR. The only downside is that some areas don't have much in the way of two-faction options--but that wouldn't really matter for most people, I think. So what if Moria only has one faction that could appear in a BP? A set of Moria orcs, perhaps including some helmeted ones in addition to archers and other melee, and a couple columns or something buildable, would be FANTASTIC! We don't need a matching 'hero' set to go up against them ala pre-2012 SW BPs (Mandalorians vs Clones, etc), and we don't need any good guys packed in with the bad guys either like current SW packs. Moria would stand alone, supplying orcs to the Mines set as well as just general enemies for the Fellowship to battle... so what if only Uruks were at Helm's Deep? Moria orcs could be thrown in there by kids & AFOLs alike. They could cart Merry & Pippin off toward Isengard with a couple Uruk-Hai, too. Then there's Helm's Deep... a set of Uruk-Hai with a broader range of weapons (better buildable pikes rather than the standard Castle halberd) and more hand-print helms & shields, maybe some Uruks with different skin tones (reddish brown, dark brown, even black) to add more variety, and another catapult or ballista to build would rule... and similarly, a Rohan pack with a couple Rohirrim (and at least one horse) and a pair of Elven archers (with helms?!) and a defensive catapult or mini-battlement would be excellent (Haldir needs some company, as do Eomer, Theoden, and their ONE archer!). They could also do a Rohirrim vs Warg Riders set or pair of sets easily enough, with landscape elements to build.

Then you get into Gondor and there's all kinds of options, from armored soldiers to Rangers of Ithilien, more Riders of Rohan, and the Mordor forces could have TONS of variety with the various orcs & Uruks & evil men making up their forces. There's several BP options just from the Pelennor Fields alone, let alone Osgiliath being overrun or the Black Gate. There's also the prologue, tho chances are slim-to-none for that (a couple of Elendil's men, a couple of Gil-Galad's troops in one set, and Sauron's forces in another--then some actual proper set with Sauron, Elendil, Isildur, Gil-Galad, and some orc warrior... a guy can dream)

The Hobbit, at least part 1, has perhaps fewer options, with the only 'troops' in the main story being Elrond's riders, warg riders, and the goblins of the mountains. But the flashbacks offer up more goodies from the battle at Moria's east gate; tons of generic armored dwarves, younger Balin & Dwalin (I wonder if the mohawk piece from CMFs would fit Dwalin with his beard on? If so, do it up in dark brown and make it happen!), and loads of orcs. Part 2 probably won't have quite so many options with the elves and spiders being the chief 'enemies' encountered by the Company (tho I'm sure the orcs will harry them again at some point before the Five Armies), maybe Dol Goldur forces vs some elves of Rivendell and/or Lothlorien assisting the White Council (just guessing we'll see troops there), but Part 3 will have PLENTY of potential BP sets.

I would hope Bridge Direct's contract isn't so rigid as Hasbro's seems to be regarding "action figures"... it'd be a shame if stupid legal issues kept TLG from capitalizing on the excellent BP potential of the films.

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IIRC, Star Wars didn't start having battle packs until 2008, about 10 years after the first LEGO star wars sets. I think the point is that if LEGO releases battle packs now, people would buy those battle packs and not buy the more expensive regular sets.

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It doesn't make sense for Lego to release battle packs for almost anything but Star Wars. While there are AFOLs out there that want to army build, few other people really do. There isn't a cartoon that would drive battle pack sets like the CW and releasing BPs would detract from the purchase of larger sets, as mentioned above. It doesn't look like we're going to have the whole fellowship released in the summer wave, and the only way to get the fellowship is to buy 4 of the 6 existing sets from the 2012 wave. AFOLs are buying the orc forge and the Uruk-hai army in droves, so it is obviously working out for TLG.

I just don't see any army packs coming for LoTR or the Hobbit unless the line lasts for years.

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IIRC, Star Wars didn't start having battle packs until 2008, about 10 years after the first LEGO star wars sets. I think the point is that if LEGO releases battle packs now, people would buy those battle packs and not buy the more expensive regular sets.

Sure they would... you wouldn't get Frodo, Aragorn, Balin, Thorin, etc in Battlepacks. Just more secondary/tertiary named characters (Faramir, Gamling, etc) occasionally and 'nameless' army-builders primarily. The characters & bigger environments of the larger sets would keep those selling nicely, while BPs could just enhance the bigger sets or provide a fun bit of army play on their own.

All it'd do is cut down on people buying multiple larger sets strictly to gain extra figures, which I doubt many do (and of those that do, most probably do it specifically to SELL the figures--and possibly part out the entire set--to others). Orc Forge & Uruk-Hai Army would be exceptions to that, of course...

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It doesn't make sense for Lego to release battle packs for almost anything but Star Wars. While there are AFOLs out there that want to army build, few other people really do. There isn't a cartoon that would drive battle pack sets like the CW and releasing BPs would detract from the purchase of larger sets, as mentioned above. It doesn't look like we're going to have the whole fellowship released in the summer wave, and the only way to get the fellowship is to buy 4 of the 6 existing sets from the 2012 wave. AFOLs are buying the orc forge and the Uruk-hai army in droves, so it is obviously working out for TLG.

I just don't see any army packs coming for LoTR or the Hobbit unless the line lasts for years.

How does it not make sense? LotR is all about the big battle scenes so why wouldn't you play to this strength with an array of battle packs? Heck I remember when the film first came out and the designers were touting how they had created the largest armies ever using CGI. If that doesn't tell you to make battle packs I don't know what does. Not only that, the current sets have caught a lot of nagative criticism because Lego isn't able to really capture some of the big structures and landscape scenes where as with a battle pack they could easily enhance the existing sets and allow people to amass huge armies. They would play to the line's strengths.

Like I said before, I see the small sets currently clogging shelves. It seems kids and AFOLS alike are passing the sets up because they don't offer anything interesting with the set and the minifigures are available in other bigger, more appealing sets. You don't even have to be an army builder to get the most of battle packs, I am sure kids would love to buy one or two just to make their armies a little bigger. Meanwhile AFOLs can buy them in droves. And as I mentioned before, how would a small complimentary set hurt sales of a big set if the big one has a great exclusive build and minifigures?

I understand the line is still in its early stages but if we don't get a battle pack by wave 3 or 4 I am going to be severely disappointed. I know Lego has limited set space per wave and they need to get all the main characters taken care of but after that assaulting us with 20 more Aragorns is going to get real old, real fast. Heck I would even settle for another Uruk-hai Army type set but it appears even something like that won't be available in wave 2 and there was no real army builder in the Hobbit wave just released either.

Edited by Deathleech

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I think that, in a way, the Uruk-Hai army set is a battle pack.

What I think is disappointing to many, based on what I have read here, is that there is no battle pack for the "good guy" factions, like Gondor. I think it is strange that Lego would release sets of rather obscure scenes (Corsairs) but not sets of Gondorian soldiers.

Edited by gundamz

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How does it not make sense? LotR is all about the big battle scenes so why wouldn't you play to this strength with an array of battle packs? Heck I remember when the film first came out and the designers were touting how they had created the largest armies ever using CGI. If that doesn't tell you to make battle packs I don't know what does. Not only that, the current sets have caught a lot of nagative criticism because Lego isn't able to really capture some of the big structures and landscape scenes where as with a battle pack they could easily enhance the existing sets and allow people to amass huge armies. They would play to the line's strengths.

I'm not saying that it wouldn't make sense from an AFOL's perspective (I would love to see BPs, and would pick up many of them), I'm saying that it does not make sense from Lego's perspective. Star Wars BPS have mass appeal because they appeal to little kids as well as adults - and CW is driving the BPs as well.

While AFOLs would pick up LoTR BPs, why would kids want a box of orcs or a box or nameless Rohirim? They want Frodo and Gandalf and all the named characters.

I think TLG would need more mass appeal to make BPs feasible.

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While AFOLs would pick up LoTR BPs, why would kids want a box of orcs or a box or nameless Rohirim? They want Frodo and Gandalf and all the named characters.

As a kid, there was no such thing as a "named character", and I jumped at every chance to get more soldiers for my castle armies. Heck, they even sold "battle packs" for classic castle before there was even a term for it. Kids haven't changed that much, and any kid that likes castles and knights and horses and monsters and such, wants more to flesh out their own little armies.

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As a kid, there was no such thing as a "named character", and I jumped at every chance to get more soldiers for my castle armies. Heck, they even sold "battle packs" for classic castle before there was even a term for it. Kids haven't changed that much, and any kid that likes castles and knights and horses and monsters and such, wants more to flesh out their own little armies.

I take this point but I think it's a bit flawed in comparing licensed and non-licensed themes. I do think licensed themes are driven by the main characters and stand out scenes.

Also while there often were no named characters or at least lesser known names for characters (consider classic pirate line) as a child I was always excited to have the 'special' figures of a faction, for instance I was excited to get my first Lego king when the royal knights were released, I was excited to get the wizard when the dragon knights were released. I also was excited by getting 'the knight in the big set with a cool helmet and horse' etc. even though they didn't have names.

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As a kid, there was no such thing as a "named character", and I jumped at every chance to get more soldiers for my castle armies. Heck, they even sold "battle packs" for classic castle before there was even a term for it. Kids haven't changed that much, and any kid that likes castles and knights and horses and monsters and such, wants more to flesh out their own little armies.

I would have to disagree. Kids have favorite characters or they want to create a scene with the characters. They are not looking to make an army of orcs, they want to have the one orc so they can fight it with Aragorn, or they want to have Frodo go up against Gollum. You also have to consider that most kids aren't buying multiples of sets and many parents aren't going to see the point in buying multiples of the same set ("you already have that set, let's get you this new one")

Edit: Yeah, like Weil said.

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Kids also are generally not as interested in recreating a full battle (e.g. Battle of Black Gate; Battle of Pelennor Fields) as they are in recreating a particular scene (e.g. death of Witch King).

Edited by gundamz

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Lego only holds the construction toy license for the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings. Bridge Direct holds the action figure license. That means Lego cannot legally release an all figure pack as that would constitue an "action figure" toy set. I beleive they have the same license for Star Wars. Of course this is easily bypassed by just throwing in a small vehicle or building piece to build as we have seen them do in the Star Wars battle packs.

That might not be so bad for them. I seem to recall that BD also had the Action Figure license for the last PotC movie. But that did not preclude Lego from releasing a PotC battle pack. It seems to vary by license however. SW was a particularly sensative issue because the Action figure license is held by a direct competitor to Lego, and the SW action figures are a HUGE core part of their business. (Let's be honest, SW Action figures led the financing mechanism for the last 5 movies).

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As a kid I wanted BOTH named characters and lots of grunts. I always tried to get all the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles then at least a couple Foot Soldiers along with Shredder, Rock Steady, Bebop, etc. It was the same with every line, multiple Stormtroopers or what have you as well as one of each of the main good and bad guys.

I also think it's important to note that as this line progresses kids and AFOLs alike are going to start becoming less and less interested in sets with only named characters. Why would a kid buy Riddles for the Ring when they already have a similar Gollum from the Shelob Attacks set and Bilbo comes in two other sets? Sure some lines you can do dozens of variations of the characters to keep them different and appealing, but in LotR the main characters only have 2-3 outfits each throughout the entire trilogy and different facial expressions are easily passed up. I have already heard dozens of people saying they have no interest in Riddles for the Ring and will be passing it up. Seeing all of these sets collect dust on the shelves only reaffirms that among kids as well.

Another thing to keep in mind is that a battle pack doesn't need to be bought multiple times to be profitable. Even if kids buy 1-2 that is still great for Lego and more than they are selling of the current small set offerings. I mean every kid wants at least a few nameless bad guys to throw at the good. As for adults buying 10+ that's just icing on the cake. If the battle packs sell slightly better than the current low price offerings and don't hinder the big set sales then why not offer them?

Edited by Deathleech

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Well, everyone here seems to have "what kids want" on lockdown. I remember being a kid and I happen to have one myself, and what you are saying as fact is simply not the case. Some kids are locked into characters, others are not. Now what?

The case for battle packs in a licensed theme has already been made with SW anyway.

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Well, everyone here seems to have "what kids want" on lockdown. I remember being a kid and I happen to have one myself, and what you are saying as fact is simply not the case. Some kids are locked into characters, others are not. Now what?

As SirBlake says, I think the case is that "different people collect in different ways", here on Eurobricks fan community the tendency is towards Army Building or collection of specific parts to create MOC's. Out there in the toy-shops the predominant strand is kids and parents who collect/purchase in a different way.

The trick is not to extrapolate our (as in the EB Historic Forums Fan community) personal wants and desires onto the rest of the world because everyone else out there is different. Lego does what the market wants and the market is much, much bigger than the small specialised fan-dom corner that we exist in.

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I concede that every kid is different, and that these are merely my views on what TLG would be thinking. I think that it would be a significant commitment for them to make BPS in any line other than SW, which has been a ground breaking theme for them. I have to imagine their is some risk involved with a BP, or at least TLG would perceive some risk. TLG would have hard data as to how well BPS sell relative to other sets, how well LoTR has been selling, etc, which I don't have, so this is just guesswork on my part.

The longer LoTR lasts, the better chance I think there will be of BPs. The problem is that I don't expect LoTR to last more than another year or so at most, but this is purely speculation on my part. I think that Hobbit sets will continue to come out with the movies, but I don't see LoTR lasting any longer than the third movie (2014)

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The lack of battlepacks in Lego LotR seemed somewhat more understandable before the release of Lone Ranger set pictures. That's an untested licence theme likely going for just one wave, and instantly it gets a better battlepack than LotR has ever got (still including the main character, of course, but a very low amount of bricks and three anonymous soldiers)? Even PotC had smallest set with two semi-anonymous zombies (though the actual "battlepack", as we call it, was very lame). I've defended the role of Riddles for the Ring and Gandalf Arrives, still like the latter one a lot, but even I start to get a little anxious for a battlepack or two. It would just necessitate slightly larger waves.

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